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Thread: 1991 BMW 750il wont start! Mechanic stuck! Been in shop >8 months!

  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by shogun View Post
    Maybe he mixed up the chips. One is for the EML and the other 2 are for the DME's. I made stickers on my chips, as you remember. The chips are the same and have the same number of feet, so theoretically he could have mixed that up. Or installed one chip the wrong way = the pacman on the wrong side. Make sure that the small divot in the new chip faces the same direction as the old one - it is possible to put it in backwards.
    http://twrite.org/shogunnew/upgrades&fun/emlupgrade.html

    https://www.pelicanparts.com/BMW/tec...ip_Install.htm
    http://www.wokke.de/Chiptuning/Insta...hips%20V12.pdf
    Quickly locate electronic control modules, relays and fuses. E-box 750iL 1. ABS/traction control module 2. DME control module II 3. EML control module 4. DME control module I 5. Hood microswitch EBox750
    http://produkte.bilder-speicher.de/1...l-modules.html

    Install the old original chips for now, only when the car runs in perfect condition, install them again. You first have to get the car running and repair all the faults.
    "He put the dash together": does that mean he had the cluster out? Is the EML light coming on when you switch the ignition on and then it goes out? If not, limpmode. Check if all 4 plugs are connected at the back of the cluster.
    Take nothing for granted, check everything, maybe he mixed up again something, I just remember the comments of TxGR8White:
    "While talking to Frank, he indicated that he used Alldata to print out the wiring diagram (which has an error in it regarding fuel pump relay locations). Anyway, the locations of the plugs is only valid if they have always been put back in the same place. The way I figured it out was actually tracing each plug back to the wiring harness located on top of the engine valley, and not where the plug was located (they were in the wrong spots to begin with). On the second point, there seemed to be a lot of things removed in regard to the interior, which in my opinion was unnecessary"

    Maybe you first move the car to TxGR8White Sick Puppy Motorwerks https://www.facebook.com/Sick-Puppy-...6035099484055/ that they fix the most important items and get the car running again. Too many faults can be messed up by that shop you used.

    Temperature gauge could be a mix up of the 3 temperature senders, see the Bentley manual, one of for the EML, one for DME, one for the cluster gauge.
    I don't see how he could have mixed up the chips when they are clearly labeled. Frank called TxGR8White when he couldn't get the car to start after installing them and quickly realized he installed them incorrectly . He let him know when he installed them back the proper way and the car started. I too think the car is in limp mode. No the cluster was not out to my knowledge. I will confirm this. I don't believe its necessary to remove to replace heater core and hoses. I do know that if the eml light does not come on=the car will be stuck in limp mode/ or if it stays on and does not turn off after turning ignition= limp mode from previous threads I have read from you shogun(if I remember correctly anyways). I am going to the shop on Friday to see whats going on and after that will probably tow to my house and begin working on it hopefully with assistance from TxGR8White. Unless someone recommends an expert shop in Dallas for the m70 they have experience working with. TxGR8White helps when ppl are stuck and can't get things figured out but like me works 40-50 hrs a week in another field. Frank wants to replace filter and transmission fluid now, which I'm not keen on doing since car has 150k miles and I've personally never flushed it since ownership at 100k. I don't have service records anymore from previous owner to verify if it was done before. The last thing I want now is a transmission failure . Thanks for all the input and I will keep up to date

  2. #52
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    I really doubt there is a trans issue. Limp mode feels much like a trans issue because the trans goes into a failsafe mode. The shifts are harsh. Do what you plan, poke around a bit first and get more info.
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  3. #53
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    yes, I also do not believe it is the transmission, that is trans failsafe mode, do not let him touch the transmission, that you can do by yourselves (later when all is fixed) if you want, 4HP24 has a dipstick and thru that you can refill new fluid, much easier than the 5HP filling from below with a pump.
    Plan testing and check everything, start from all fuses and then systematically step by step. As the car was in the shop that long, also check tank fuel level and both fuel pumps. On my 11/88 750 I test the fuel pumps with a short wire/cable. Ignition off, fuse box cover off left side engine bay, one side of the cable touching to B+ post next to the fuse box and the other end briefly hold on fuse # 23 for one bank, and then on fuse #24 for the other bank, then you can hear the fuel pumps running and even hear the fuel pushed thru the fuel hoses in engine bay and through the fuel pressure regulators. That is for the DME M1.2 built year 11/88, check here for the fuses for your built year http://shark.armchair.mb.ca/~dave/BMW/e32/
    09/1990 - 08/1991 750 M1.7 fuel pump fuses are also # 23 and # 24.
    Shogun tricks and tips for the E32 series are HERE!

  4. #54
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    And I will also add, limp mode can be caused by one bank essentially shutting down. So you can disconnect the MAFs. If you disconnect one and it stalls, that bank (opposite side of the engine) is probably good. And likewise, if you disconnect the other MAF and nothing happens, that is your problem bank.
    ______________________________
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  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by unity View Post
    And I will also add, limp mode can be caused by one bank essentially shutting down. So you can disconnect the MAFs. If you disconnect one and it stalls, that bank (opposite side of the engine) is probably good. And likewise, if you disconnect the other MAF and nothing happens, that is your problem bank.

    I will check this as well and report back. Wont it throw a code if it is in limp mode or not necessarily?
    Last edited by Bimmerboatmd25; 11-08-2018 at 12:06 PM.

  6. #56
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    It should. In fact, you should seen an illuminated EML light. But I personally found this is not always the case - and that drove me nuts.
    ______________________________
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  7. #57
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    Not always, my personal experience 2 years ago, when one of the original 28 years old fuel pumps finally failed and got stuck (tested later outside, did not move at all), car ran on one bank only because of the stuck fuel pump on the other bank, but no EML light on.
    Shogun tricks and tips for the E32 series are HERE!

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by shogun View Post
    Not always, my personal experience 2 years ago, when one of the original 28 years old fuel pumps finally failed and got stuck (tested later outside, did not move at all), car ran on one bank only because of the stuck fuel pump on the other bank, but no EML light on.

    Thats what I thought but Frank was confident he would get a code with his reader after clearing, which he didn't. he was also saying that it would say limp home mode in the dash. But I was pretty sure that wasn't always the case . Will try and make it over there this afternoon

  9. #59
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    apparently fuel pumps are working. he said transmission wasn't harsh or shifting roughly just slow and without power. EML light comes on and turns off as it should. Fuel tank level is good. Will update more once I get over there

  10. #60
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    1991 bmw 750il transmission problems

    Hi all,
    Just wanting to post a follow up on my car from an earlier post when the mechanic working on it could not get it to start. The CPS sensors were reversed. Once he got the engine running and hitting on all 12 cylinders he installed the aftermarket chips shogun sells into the DME and EML . After reinstalling both DME and EML he could not get the car to start again. LOL. Low and behold he installed them backwards and after redoing the process the car started. YES I EVEN FORWARDED HIM YOUR INSTRUCTIONS SHOGUN SHOWING WHICH DIRECTION THE CHIP GOES WITH INDENT. After this he tried to take the car for a drive but it had no power and would not go over 30mph . it was also pinging on the heat gauge . he said he then read the temperatures on the hoses at 160 F . All the temp gauges have been replaced . Later today when I picked the car up (I mean towed again) found out the radiator has a small crack in it. Don't know how this was not caught earlier (this is not the original one either it was replaced with a Behr) after everything thats been replaced.

    After he took the failed test drive he called and explained when he got back to the shop he checked the transmission fluid and stated there was no fluid in it. so he added fluid and re-tested but still no difference and no power. When he took the attempted test drive he obviously didn't make it far down the road a half mile and back. Do you think he burned up the transmission ? He also took Shoguns chips out and went back to factory but obviously that made no difference.

    When I got the car from him today I drove it just a little bit down the street and it totally seems like a transmission problem if I had to guess. Just no power to the wheels. I had to go up a small hill and it would barely even do that. I don't feel like it is anything with the engine bc it literally sounds and runs the best it ever has in my 10 years of ownership. It clearly is hitting on all 12 and sounds just the way a 12 cyclinder should. The car has not been throwing any codes to his or my knowledge. The car also rolls now in park , which I assume is bc the parking paw is not engaging. Never have had any issues with transmission in 10 yrs till now. Extremely frustrating wanting to blame the mechanic but don't know that I should. Sitting as long as it has while he was "fixing it" I know everything just dries out and starts breaking. Car has 160k miles now I guess I should have expected the transmission to go at some point.

    Ive spent close to $7500 in the past 14 months not including all the other work done in the previous 2-3 years so I'm probably close to 13-14k total spent on the car (a lot has been done) and still having all these issues. Im too far in now and will have to replace the transmission or rebuild if that is the problem. I know someone has to have a specialist that rebuilds these they can refer to me should I need it? Dealer cost on a brand new one was 4500. Figure about 10 hrs labor I'm guessing. I guess the good news is after tackling these last few things the car will be basically brand new (mostly lol) and expect to continue down the road many more years. This has been my goal. Sad part I still have to do the interior and get the stereo working again after this. I know doing the interior would probably take another 3-4k to get looking new again. Good thing my fiancé has no idea how much money I've sunk into this car that I probably couldn't sell for 4k-5k. Not that I have any desire to sell it nor plan to. Just not sure where to go from here. Any ideas or advice is muchly appreciated as always. So thankful to have a resource like this full of ppl that know a lot more than me about these. Priceless!
    Thanks again for the help,
    Max

    - - - Updated - - -

    Ive got a bunch of receipts for everything done in the past 14months, so I will try to post some photos of that as well for reference

  11. #61
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    Also wanted to say there aren't any hard shifts it just has no power and doesn't go anywhere

  12. #62
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    img20181120_10152926.pdfhere are the receipts for what was done including new battery and battery cables.

  13. #63
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    I have merged the old thread and your last posts, as that is one story.
    Do me one favour, leave my chips out till the car runs and is fixed. But apparently they are out again now and it does not matter if my chips are installed or the original ones.

    One question: when you switch the ignition on or start the engine, does the EML light in the cluster come on or not? And then goes out or stays? Or never comes on?
    Maybe it is in limpmode and that is why the trans is acting funny. And in limpmode the trans works like that. https://www.transmissionrepaircostguide.com/limp-mode/

    it was also pinging on the heat gauge . he said he then read the temperatures on the hoses at 160 F .
    160 degree F is just 71 degree Celsius, that is not the proper operating temperature, too low.
    From the experience so far, I assume he mixed up the coolant temperature sensors for the cluster and the e-box/EML, here I posted details what goes where http://www.bimmerboard.com/forums/posts/1213974/

    All the temp gauges have been replaced .
    all temp gauges? There is only one. Or do you mean the sensors?

    After he took the failed test drive he called and explained when he got back to the shop he checked the transmission fluid and stated there was no fluid in it.
    check by yourselves, we cannot trust that shop https://www.europeantransmissions.co...ansService.pdf

    Max. as you have the car now out of the shop, I would ask a real good shop to check all what that terrible shop has done so far. and they will fix it. At the moment I do not believe it is a transmission problem, sounds more like limpmode.
    Maybe that shop mixed up again something like before. And without checking it on the car, no one can help you on the forum. Remember how they mixed up before, CPS and Cylinder ID sensors connected to the wrong plugs.
    I suggest you contact TxGR8White once more, he has helped you before and found terrible mistakes the shop made. Maybe he can check the car + repair it professionally, he is experienced and knows that engine very well. And he is also located in Dallas.

    I would not go back to the old shop again, they have made too many mistakes already.

    PS: I sent TxGR8White a PM with the link to this thread, hopefully he can chime in
    Last edited by shogun; 02-23-2019 at 05:52 AM.
    Shogun tricks and tips for the E32 series are HERE!

  14. #64
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    Thank you. Yea not planning to reinstall them till everything is working right. But they aren't the issue anyways and never expected they were.

    "One question: when you switch the ignition on or start the engine, does the EML light in the cluster come on or not? And then goes out or stays? Or never comes on? Maybe it is in limpmode and that is why the trans is acting funny. And in limpmode the trans works like that. https://www.transmissionrepaircostguide.com/limp-mode/ ">>>>>>>>>>>>Yes, EML light comes on for approximately 2 seconds and then shuts off as it should when you turn the ignition .

    "160 degree F is just 71 degree Celsius, that is not the proper operating temperature, too low.
    From the experience so far, I assume he mixed up the coolant temperature sensors for the cluster and the e-box/EML, here I posted details what goes where http://www.bimmerboard.com/forums/posts/1213974/ all temp gauges? There is only one. Or do you mean the sensors?" >>>>>>>> Yes I meant sensors, sorry about that. I agree he probably mixed the sensors up. I will read thread . Thank you.

    Thank you. Yea not planning to reinstall your chips until everything is working right. But they aren't the issue anyways and never expected they were. Yes, EML light comes on for approximately 2 seconds and then shuts off as it should when you turn the ignition . Ive learned this from all your previous threads I've read where others had this issue.
    Yes I meant sensors, sorry about that. I agree he probably mixed the sensors up. I will read thread . Thank you for posting.
    I really appreciate all the help. From what I have read others saying about limp mode - it is described exactly how this car is acting (only go 30mph won't go up hill etc) so I am hoping that is the issue and not transmssion. At least this is something that can be tested, once found, replaced and corrected. The car will never go back to that shop. I actually feel much better having the car back in my hands. Not sure if I should dig into it myself or try to find a competent shop that wants to work on it. Most shops know nothing about the m70 and don't want to work on it.
    Last edited by shogun; 02-23-2019 at 06:35 PM. Reason: cleaned up

  15. #65
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    Car is definitely in limp mode . It won’t rev past 3k rpms period . I guess I should start by checking the easy stuff first like fuel pumps etc. Any direction on things to start checking would be great and I’ll start going down the list

  16. #66
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    First you need the correct ETM, select one here http://shark.armchair.mb.ca/~dave/BMW/e32/ please pay attention to the built year and month of the car, check the VIN, because the ETM changes not per yearend.
    Fuel pump testing is on Johan's site http://bmwe32.masscom.net/ but again, pay attention to the ETM, the main relays and fuel pump relays locations are different by year.
    Read this thread, what all can be mixed up with fuel pumps, there someone mixed up feed and return line https://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/s...nt-start-fixed

    http://bmwe32.masscom.net/sean750/fu...Regulators.htm

    shop manual is here https://www.bmwtechinfo.com/repair/main/
    under nominal values.. are also the specs for sensors, here a German info http://www.e32-schrauber.de/bmw/s-tempsensor.htm

    as said before, difficult to help via the internet, one has to see and check everything
    Last edited by shogun; 02-23-2019 at 06:40 PM.
    Shogun tricks and tips for the E32 series are HERE!

  17. #67
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    With regard to park not holding, the car has been standing that long that the shift cable may just be seized at the trans end. The cable also controls the manual shift valve so it is possible that ATF is not being diverted correctly inside the valve body. Try disconnecting the shift cable at the trans end and give the lever on the side of the trans a firm push forward. You will probably find that park then holds. Spraying the cable (where the inner enters the outer) with WD40 and working the shift lever backwards and forwards may well free it up. It will not help solve the running issues but at least the car will not roll away

  18. #68
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    Whiskychaser thanks for posting this. I will give this a try and report back.

    Shogun thanks for all this info as always.

    I actually have something positive to report for once. I can't believe it actually. The reason it is in limp mode was something you all have said and one of the few things I personally had knowledge of(thanks to this forum and wealth of knowledge here) and could diagnose immediately on my own! It was also something I told frank(the mechanic) to check probably ten times and he actually told me he checked. I am pretty furious at him but thankful to know what to do next to get this car back on all 12 cylinders and hopefully back on the road for a very long time.

    Drum roll.... it was the freaking EML light in the dash! It doesn't turn on then off when ignition is in pos 2. No EML whatsoever. The easiest to diagnose of them all! Im still in awe he did not catch this after all the times I brought it up. Frank seems to have a mind of his own and not listen to suggestions well (maybe ego). He even refused to take the advice from TxGR8White who so graciously took time out of his busy life to help me get the car running again (which he did in the first 15 minutes being there). This shop honestly needs to be blacklisted. I also am to blame for not taking the initiative and getting the car back sooner when it was obvious Frank would not get it done. Rant over.

    I also took the car to a competent shop with the proper bmw diagnostic equipment to read off whatever codes were stored in the DME and EML. The codes were as follows:

    Codes present in both DME's for O2 Control - unrelated problem I guess. The O2 sensors have been replaced in recent years. Could a vacuum leak cause this?

    Left side DME had code for vehicle speed sensor . Will this cause a lower rev limit? The engine would not rev past 1500 RPM not 3k as I stated before.

    EML has code "08 Control Unit/Warning Lamp" - this code remained even after the shop attempted to clear the codes. I assume this is the cause of limp mode - EML light in dash doesn't light up then turn off when ignition is in pos 2 . I understand the EML light in the dash has two bulbs (one is a resistor for the other), I also understand there is no replacement bulbs if they are blown. Is this correct? So if the bulbs are the problem the entire cluster must be replaced? I am hoping it is a loose wire that just needs to be re-soldered. Are there any other things that could cause this I have missed?

    Will have more of an update tomorrow and hopefully will be running on all 12 again. Im now second guessing all the work done and hoping I didnt make a mistake using Facet crankshaft position sensors instead of genuine bmw. They were like 80 bucks for both compared to like 200 for the genuine.

    Anyways thanks again for everyones help and input. Its much appreciated! At least happy to make a little progress and know I'm headed in the right direction.

  19. #69
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    Fix the EML light first, then we will see what happens. Here is the cheapest fix, a soldering iron http://bmwe32.masscom.net/johan/eml_bulb/eml_bulb.html
    I still remember a case more than 10 years ago on RF where someone from NY with an 750 had the limpmode and a stupid shop did not know that the EML light has to function, they replaced for mucho $ both DME's and the EML control unit, as that did not help he posted the problem on the forum and I told him how to fix it with a soldering iron.

    O2 control warning forget at the moment as the engine runs in limpmode, not so important at the moment. That we will attack later. But it could be that your incompetent shop has mixed up the O2 sensors under the car, left<>right, so then the signals would go to the wrong DME and that DME would adjust and even make it more problem.
    warning vehicle speed is more important, when you drive, is the speedometer working like this? http://www.bmwe34.net/E34main/Mainte...eed_sensor.htm

    EML function diagram https://www.europeantransmissions.co...MW/EML-BMW.pdf
    Shogun tricks and tips for the E32 series are HERE!

  20. #70
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    Great write up for fixing the EML light with soldering iron. Ill let you know how that goes tomorrow. Man I bet he was relieved to find out how easily he could fix it himself but probably drove him nuts knowing all the other things he could have fixed if he didnt spend all that money on things that didnt need replaced. I feel his pain. At least I didnt replace my EML too lol.

    Now as far as the warning speed sensor it has acted the way described in the link you provided, but I've only actually seen it do it one time for only a cpl seconds . The instructions to replace seems pretty easy maybe just tedious and time consuming . Should I just replace the sensor or would you clean it with wd40 first as stated works sometimes ?

  21. #71
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    On the speed sensor first check the wire connections, maybe oxidized / no good contact. Cleaning mit be fine.

    Here I posted the EML light repair with more clear pics back in 2005 http://www.bimmerboard.com/forums/posts/92132/
    Last edited by shogun; 02-25-2019 at 05:47 AM.
    Shogun tricks and tips for the E32 series are HERE!

  22. #72
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    Here is where I am now the EML works but the car won't start:
    Pulled the cluster to check the bulbs, and they were both fine. Further testing showed that there was ground signal on pins 16/17 in pos2 for a few seconds from the white cluster connector, which means the EML itself is working properly.
    However, pins 12/13 on the tan X16 cluster connector did not have +12v as they should, which is why the EML lights weren't functioning properly. Those pins receive power from Fuse 20, which was blown.Replacing that fuse with a new one resulted in it blowing instantly, regardless of key position. The load side of that fuse was found to have a direct short to ground.
    Next I pulled the lower dash trim/kickpanel on the driver's side to try to locate the short. Of the 5 large connectors fed by F20, I was able to narrow it down to something on the X15 plug. This is the white 30 pin connector that leads to, among other things, the on-board computer, park ventilation box, and chime module. With the X15 connector unplugged, the short on the load side of F20 was no longer present, and a new 7.5A fuse could be installed without blowing. The EML light now functions as it should with the key in Pos2. I think the X15 connector also feeds something that prevents the car from even trying to crank. I haven't dug any further into the wiring diagrams to try to chase that down yet, or been able to find the short coming off of it via a visual examination. Need more help!
    Last edited by Bimmerboatmd25; 02-26-2019 at 01:38 AM.

  23. #73
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    Ive never heard of anything like this before reading through the forums so anyones advice is appreciated. Its going to be a lot of fun pulling out the dash and whatever else trying to find the short. Is there a way I can bypass or jump circuit x15 to try and start the car prior to ripping everything apart looking for root cause

  24. #74
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    Had a quick look at the wiring diagrams and could not find X15. But if the fuse does not blow when it is disconnected, check the side which comes from the fuse for a permanent live. Then check the other side of the plug for continuity to ground on a corresponding pin. That should give you the colour of the wire which is causing the problem and you can check what it connects to in the wiring diagrams.

  25. #75
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    found it in the component location index, X15 connector 30 pins, location below left side of dash on LH side of connector bracket, see 7100-25-2 http://shark.armchair.mb.ca/~dave/BMW/e32/e32_91.pdf
    Shogun tricks and tips for the E32 series are HERE!

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