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Thread: persistant cel and drivability issues

  1. #1
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    persistant cel and drivability issues

    car is 1999 bmw 528i automatic. 173xxx

    the story (condensed version) so far. i received the car with a persistent CEL. PO replaced CCV, MAF to TB rubber boots, all 4 02 sensors with Bosch (new), and a few vacuum lines. day after purchase, car began misfiring. i replaced all 6 plugs, and added techron to the tank to eliminate bad gas. i then purchased BMW specific scanner, as torque and bluetooth dongle was less than confidence inspiring. car and CEL behavior at that time (approximately 300 miles ago) was that CEL would come on almost instantly upon moving, with misfires upon restart. codes were as follows:20180802_181908 by Michael Crawford, on Flickr


    i swapped the upstream oxygen sensors connectors to see if that changed behavior. 4 mile test drive, with some Italian tune up gave me this:20180802_190109 by Michael Crawford, on Flickr

    for whatever reason, i interpreted this as either electrical or vacuum leak, but im not certain why now. regardless, i checked every single fuse in the entire car with a multimeter. none bad. i cleaned every connector in the oxygen sensor circuit, DME connector, and engine bay with QD contact cleaner. i also replaced every o-ring, gasket, vacuum hose/line, vacuum cap in the entire engine bay. DISA was checked manually, and per research, tested good. visual inspection of the intake tract PO replaced revealed nothing. cleaned ICV and TB. Replaced injector orings. replaced all missing hardware, and hose clamped every hose in the entire place. upon test drive of 200 miles, it seems down on power lower in rpm range, but much stronger higher in the RPM range. no misfires, but on board computer shows significantly worse gas mileage. no misfires anywhere that i can detect. no idle issues. CEL comes on the first time you git about 10mph.

    following codes after 200 miles.
    20180818_171357 by Michael Crawford, on Flickr

    im completely at a loss at this point. im begging for help. im in over my head, i do believe.
    but this forum is full of the most experienced, and smartest people imaginable. so between all of us, we should be able to figure this out.

    i cant afford to shotgun parts at it and still come to spectate at the challenge, nor do i really WANT to throw parts at it until it goes away. i want to fix whats broke, and bring it to a proper state of tune. Hell, if theres one of us local thats really good with BMW stuff, and willing to help, ill buy the food!

    but, help me BMW-kanobi, y'all are my only hope

    where do i start?
    Last edited by Dusterbd; 08-18-2018 at 08:16 PM.

  2. #2
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    Step 1 is a smoke test of the intake / crankcase vent system, using a professional smoke machine for at least ten minutes. Step 2 is a fuel pressure test, while the car is being driven, gauge taped to the windshield.

    Somewhere right around these two items, you need a good BMW tech to watch live data for all fuel/air parameters, to see if an anomaly is present. Perhaps intake air temp, engine coolant temp, mass air flow, etc.
    Last edited by bmwdirtracer; 08-18-2018 at 09:35 PM.

    Chris Powell
    Racer and Instructor since, well. decades, ok?
    Master Auto Tech, owner of German Motors of Aberdeen
    BMWCCA 274412
    German Motors is hiring ! https://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/s...1#post30831471

  3. #3
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    We had couple of 3.0 e53 x5's, with weird ox faults, turned out the the weld at the exhaust flange at the head were the pipe comes out had cracked and was sucking in air.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmwdirtracer View Post
    Step 1 is a smoke test of the intake / crankcase vent system, using a professional smoke machine for at least ten minutes. Step 2 is a fuel pressure test, while the car is being driven, gauge taped to the windshield.

    Somewhere right around these two items, you need a good BMW tech to watch live data for all fuel/air parameters, to see if an anomaly is present. Perhaps intake air temp, engine coolant temp, mass air flow, etc.

    Im going to go ahead and build a smoke test machine today, as nobody around here has one.
    What should fuel pressure spec be?

    As much as id like to take it to a guy, the availability of a good bmw guy within 30 miles is nil. Same with the funds to pay the guy. So its ultimately going to be me fixing it. Honestly, i figure if i can megasquirt a duster, stuff a fwd gmv6 converted tobrwd in a miata, etc, i should be able to fix this with advice, experience, and some hand holding.

  5. #5
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    Those small yellow ebay Chinese smoke machines work really really well.

    I think if you were to watch some live data, you'd get a better clue as to what is going on. I don't think PASoft BMW scanner has much live data viewing. It wouldn't be my go to for this kind of stuff. It does a good job with code reading though.

    BMW engineering's INPA is what I would use for a quick live data reading. Even though I think this is a vacuum leak, maybe the maf. You should also use the live reporting to make sure you have the correct bank's oxygen sensor connected at the correct place. IIRC they are backwards on the fuel rail, bank 1 connected to rearmost, bank 2 frontmost. But I wouldn't go by that alone.

    https://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/s...xperimentation
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  6. #6
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    Fuel pressure should be 3.5 bar (51 psi).

    I just noticed that one of your codes says O2 sensor Bank 1, Sensor 2 NO SIGNAL.....so that's unplugged, or has a bad wire. All the others O2 sensor codes are most likely mixture issues, but without live data and a real smoke machine, it's going to be guesswork. "Voltage excursion" codes I've not seen; a different scan tool might translate that differently.

    Later cars will provide a code for "swapped" O2 sensors, but your car won't, so you'd have to disconnect one sensor, and see if data for the correct bank disappears.

    When your CEL activates, do you also get ABS or Traction control lights?

    Chris Powell
    Racer and Instructor since, well. decades, ok?
    Master Auto Tech, owner of German Motors of Aberdeen
    BMWCCA 274412
    German Motors is hiring ! https://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/s...1#post30831471

  7. #7
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    Try OBDFusion for your smartphone or tablet. It allows you to log data that can be exported. Go to E46Fanatics and search for OBDFusion threads in which jfoj has commented. He’s the guru.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmwdirtracer View Post
    Fuel pressure should be 3.5 bar (51 psi).

    I just noticed that one of your codes says O2 sensor Bank 1, Sensor 2 NO SIGNAL.....so that's unplugged, or has a bad wire. All the others O2 sensor codes are most likely mixture issues, but without live data and a real smoke machine, it's going to be guesswork. "Voltage excursion" codes I've not seen; a different scan tool might translate that differently.

    Later cars will provide a code for "swapped" O2 sensors, but your car won't, so you'd have to disconnect one sensor, and see if data for the correct bank disappears.

    When your CEL activates, do you also get ABS or Traction control lights?
    is 51 psi static, under vacuum, idle.... lots of the cars im used to messing with use a vacuum modulater regulator. so you check under various conditions for various pressures. is this that way?
    I do not get any other lights with the CEL.

  9. #9
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    Finally got live data working with torque. Its not the highest sample rate, but it was enough to see bank 1 sensor 1 voltage does change. However, bank 2 sensor 1 stays at .4 volt no matter what.

    I also unplugged the maf as a test. I could not really tell a change either way, however torque is showing it changing measurements.

    What i do find odd is that idle, calculated load is 30%. Need to hook up to something else and see what that actually means. It may be a standard idle value for torque, or it may be a symptom in itself.

  10. #10
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    I'm going to have to wait for Abel to respond, because your live data does not correspond .

    A MAF can't possibly change measurements when it's disconnected.
    You have codes showing Bank 1 Sensor 2 disconnected, but B2S1's DATA shows IT is disconnected. (If indeed B2S1 is unresponsive, we need to track down that response. What numbers doe B1S1 show, high and low?

    51 psi static is fine; however, your problems happen on the road, so static fuel pressure doesn't tell us if the fuel pressure dies under load.

    Do you have ABVS/Traction, or Transmission lights? (Is this an autobox car?)

    Chris Powell
    Racer and Instructor since, well. decades, ok?
    Master Auto Tech, owner of German Motors of Aberdeen
    BMWCCA 274412
    German Motors is hiring ! https://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/s...1#post30831471

  11. #11
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    that should have been written much clearer. sorry about that.

    the maf test was prior to live data. with the maf plugged in/unplugged, throttle response and drivability did not seem to change. however, once i got live data working, it shoued a reasonable g/s measurement.

    will check static, and behacior of fuel pressure under load. assuming the hose on my fuel pressure gauge is long enough to tape it to the windshield.

    i have NO OTHER LIGHTS under CEL conditions. id actually be comforted if i did, as that would show a common fault.

    the last picture of data is most recent. first picture is codes as purchased, second is when i tried swapping upstream o2 sensor connectors. i went back to the way the car was delivered for the third picture.

    under torque live data (i have downloaded the reccomended app from earier in the thread, though havent gotten it to work yet), i have b1s1 showing varying conditions of .1v-.3v, however b2s1 stays at a consistant .4v no matter what conditions.

    does that help clarify? I really need to think through written communication instead of shooting from the hip as I am prone to do.

  12. #12
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    Just from the last couple of lines, I'd say you have a massive intake / ccv system leak, and also a disconnected B2S1

    On a HUNCH, have a look at the oil return line from the CCV to the dipstick tube; this thing turns to mush. A CCV leak is an intake leak that you can't find.

    Chris Powell
    Racer and Instructor since, well. decades, ok?
    Master Auto Tech, owner of German Motors of Aberdeen
    BMWCCA 274412
    German Motors is hiring ! https://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/s...1#post30831471

  13. #13
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    I have confirmed that bws1 is connected. Is there a way to test the sensor and wiring itself?

    I also ordered a smoke test machine today. My attempt to make one failed miserably. I can find no leaks with normal methods.

    Car is an automatic. Dont think i answered that. Low option 1999 528i touring automatic with m52tu and limited history.

  14. #14
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    I'm going to assume you meant B2S1. Mark both sides of the connecting plug so you won't end up swapping accidentally. Then disconnect both primary sensor plugs, and swap them to the other bank's connector. Then see whether the Bank 1 Sensor 1 is now reading a steady .4V. If so, the sensor's bad.

    Not to worry about failing at making a smoke machine. I failed 3 times, before buying a pro machine.

    Chris Powell
    Racer and Instructor since, well. decades, ok?
    Master Auto Tech, owner of German Motors of Aberdeen
    BMWCCA 274412
    German Motors is hiring ! https://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/s...1#post30831471

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by jclausen View Post
    We had couple of 3.0 e53 x5's, with weird ox faults, turned out the the weld at the exhaust flange at the head were the pipe comes out had cracked and was sucking in air.
    Could be me, but this seems related to E3[227] in your last pic. You should have a look at your headers just to be sure.
    "If you have integrity, nothing else matters. If you don't have integrity, nothing else matters." Alan K. Simpson.
    5spd E46 "3XX": 328i engine, 330i Intake and exhaust, CAI, 323i diff.

  16. #16
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    Swapping 02 sensors had BOTH banks stuck at .4v

    This means bank2 sensor is dead, aswell as a chassis side wiring issue in bank2, right? Or am i cinfused?

  17. #17
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    Bump.

    I pointed Duster to the forum, let's help him get the wagon fixed!

    Duster, where you able to check the headers? Whats the best way to check for header cracks? Would spraying something on them cause a change in sound?

  18. #18
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    Slippery, it is clear that Duster has excellent skills. That said, we have some non-correlating data, and it's going to take some hands-on, and repeated testing, via live data.

    Sometimes, this really IS rocket science. Sure, most diagnoses are simple, but sometimes it just takes the right guy, watching the right live data, at the right moment.

    I'll be here to help, as well as our forum's more erudite participants. That said, I don't see the correlations that we should see, at this point. Maybe a code wasn't cleared, Maybe the scan tool isn't reading correctly (or fast enough). Maybe the engine is still in open loop, because it's too cold.

    Not enough data, but I can't tell you, or Duster, which piece of data is missing, without being connected to the car.

    My apologies.

    Chris Powell
    Racer and Instructor since, well. decades, ok?
    Master Auto Tech, owner of German Motors of Aberdeen
    BMWCCA 274412
    German Motors is hiring ! https://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/s...1#post30831471

  19. #19
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    Thank you all.

    As an update, i have not done much this week. I broke a rib, and it hurts like a mofo to breathe, let alone cram myself into odd space. Ive gotten the b2s1 changed, and next is looking at the wiring from b2s1 to the dme. Im almost positive that both the sensor and wirong to b2s1 were having issues due to both sensors sticking at .4v when switched.

    The manifolds: i gave the best visual and auditory inspection i can umder the circumstances. I see ne evidence of carbon tracing anywhere, and hear no exhaust leaks.

    My smoke machine has come in, and i opened it up, but thats about as far as ive gotten with it.

  20. #20
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    ok, so i did some multimeter testing today.

    all the following results are b2s1 chassis side wiring

    all pins have voltage at the oxegen sensor end, varying from 3.6 volts to 11.36 (battery voltage)
    no pins have a ground
    all pins have no measurable resistance between the DME connector and corresponding oxegyn sensor pin.

    the b1s1 has 2 pins with voltage, and one ground. the return to DME ohms at 0.

    bad dme? or is there harness damage im missing somewhere that i havent found yet?

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmwdirtracer View Post
    Slippery, it is clear that Duster has excellent skills. That said, we have some non-correlating data, and it's going to take some hands-on, and repeated testing, via live data.

    Sometimes, this really IS rocket science. Sure, most diagnoses are simple, but sometimes it just takes the right guy, watching the right live data, at the right moment.

    I'll be here to help, as well as our forum's more erudite participants. That said, I don't see the correlations that we should see, at this point. Maybe a code wasn't cleared, Maybe the scan tool isn't reading correctly (or fast enough). Maybe the engine is still in open loop, because it's too cold.

    Not enough data, but I can't tell you, or Duster, which piece of data is missing, without being connected to the car.

    My apologies.
    I see youre in western North Carolina. If this continues to fight, and continues to be giving data that it almost CAN'T give, would you be willing to take a look at it if i drive up and buy you lunch?

    Additionally, i see you're an instructor with bmwcca. Do you remember a lime green corvette named butt ugly driven by another instructor named wally Crawford?

  22. #22
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    No on the Vette, sorry, but my memory is poor this way. I have only 10% designated to cars, so that 10% loads on one end, and dumps older data out the other. That's why I keep extensive notes, on every car I meet.

    Of course, I'd be happy to look at your car, but I work at a shop, and the shop doesn't belong to me, so I can't decipher your issue for a free lunch, because my boss eats lobster and caviar.

    Chris Powell
    Racer and Instructor since, well. decades, ok?
    Master Auto Tech, owner of German Motors of Aberdeen
    BMWCCA 274412
    German Motors is hiring ! https://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/s...1#post30831471

  23. #23
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    Fair enough on both. If im going to have to pay the man, id rather it be a man thats out to help.

    Hopefully i dont have to pay the man though....

  24. #24
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    Could it be a failing HG from an overheat?

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dusterbd View Post
    ok, so i did some multimeter testing today.

    all the following results are b2s1 chassis side wiring

    all pins have voltage at the oxegen sensor end, varying from 3.6 volts to 11.36 (battery voltage)
    no pins have a ground
    all pins have no measurable resistance between the DME connector and corresponding oxegyn sensor pin.

    the b1s1 has 2 pins with voltage, and one ground. the return to DME ohms at 0.

    bad dme? or is there harness damage im missing somewhere that i havent found yet?
    Wow, let me confirm:

    This testing was done with the O2 sensors disconnected, testing the wiring harness to the DME?

    Something doesn't compute at all....

    Bank 2 sensor 1 wiring would have to be COMPLETELY shorted, but that doesn't make any sense, because you'd never have 0 ohms when testing resistance.

    Just asking: If all pins have voltage, how exactly did you test for ground? I 'm sorry, I don't know your electrical experience: when testing resistances, you didn't test any wire that had power going through it, did you? (If so, your meter no longer tests resistance.

    Once you have confirmed the above readings, the next step would be to open up the DME, and see whether it's all green and nasty in there.

    If you end up needing a DME, Abel (328 Power 04) can likely help with that.

    Chris Powell
    Racer and Instructor since, well. decades, ok?
    Master Auto Tech, owner of German Motors of Aberdeen
    BMWCCA 274412
    German Motors is hiring ! https://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/s...1#post30831471

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