Newbie, looking for track car advise
Hi! Haven’t done HPDE since 2013. Was last in the Yellow Solo group driving a 996 Turbo and 996 GT3 later. Both track prepped street legal cars that I would drive to Texas tracks.
I’d like to enter back in with my Son who’s now 13 as a bonding hobby. Looking for a much less expensive option to purchase maintain as a track toy. Always loved BMW though never owned one. Almost bought a 1995 M3 coupe new but opted for a RX7 94.
Also considering Miata. Am I in the right place? Still learning how to search here but would appreciate any feedback from those who have done similar.
Thanks,
Tom
Moved to Track, Auto-X Drag Racing
You will get good advise in this sub-forum. Teach your son well.
04M3 TiAg 69k slick-top 3 pedal
99M3 Cosmos 61k S50B32 euro 6Spd
88M3 AW 43k miles Project FS
WTB: 3.5" Eurosport/Conforti CAI
Thanks!
Miata or E36, both are Low cost (relative to most other options), excellent learner, and can morph into advanced HDPE, Time Trials, or race . If E36 or older Miata, try to find one that someone has taken the time to freshen up (bushings, shocks, ball joints, bearings, etc). E36's are in their 20's now, and the ones that have just been sitting or driven without care, are pretty crusty.
I'd be biased towards a Miata due to the ability to get a newer one that would need little to nothing to track it 'next weekend', and about the lowest run costs in HPDE and club racing. (I personally need the room that an E36 provides.)
For cost comparisons, I bought 2 rear E36 M3 rotors last week for $28 shipped. I'm not sure anyone has ever needed to change a rear rotor on a Miata.
E46 is great platform too, and 'fresh' ones are easier to find than the E36. Entry cost is higher, but a fresh one for the right price would be a great car too. Not as many options for the E46 if you eventually move to racing.
Last edited by aeronaut; 08-13-2018 at 06:20 AM.
tgua,
Whats the end game (goal)? Whats the budget?
Are you looking to tinker with a street car that you can take to HPDEs a few times a year or build up a spec race car as a bonding experience and get into racing eventually? An e46 m3 is a SWEET car that is extremely capable with a moderate amount of upkeep and minimal prep. Could serve as a great dual duty car with speeds similar to your old 996 gt3. An e36 m3 is a great drivers car that is not as fast as an e46, but is more connected to the driver and has a more playful ("tossable") chassis whereas the e46 is more rigid. The e36 m3 is much cheaper to maintain but the interior is going to suck in comparison to the e46 if you are comparing dual duty cars.
Cant speak on the miata front. Have heard glorious things, but they do not compare to an e36 or e46 m3 in sheer speed. In even intermediate groupings, the miata can seem like a speed bump compared to the expensive and incredibly fast metal at HPDE events. If the goal is to build a spec race car and get a racing license, the miata seems like the best option by far.
"but they do not compare to an e36 or e46 m3 in sheer speed"
True, but on many tracks, they are well within the margin of the drivers ability deciding which has lower lap time.
Very helpful comments. Thanks!
Check out the BRZ and FRS cars. They are old enough now that they can be had for quite cheap and they are one of the if not the best chassis to learn on. They are very lively while being extremely forgiving, and unlike other affordable options they are not rusted out or clapped out - you can buy one and take it to the track with nothing but a good set of brake pads. The BMWs are great cars but they need major attention, like reinforced rear subframe mounting, change all bushings and balljoints (but you're still stuck with a 90s interior that is rattling and delaminating everywhere, with modern conveniences being limited to power windows and a CD player). Miatas have the same problems due to age but they're also convertibles which amplifies the potential list of issues to address, and they are cramped and slow. The 86 twins are "slow" by modern standards but they are not Miata slow. They have more than enough power for a beginner to work with on track without being afraid of the right pedal (most guys I see who bring Z06s to the beginner group wait until the car is straight and then hammer it - yeah it's quick but they're not learning jack). Newer Miatas are better but they are expensive. The 86 aftermarket is also enormous so when you're ready for a reliable 270whp from a supercharger, or a coilover kit from any one of dozens of manufacturers, it's waiting for you. The body will also fit a 17x9 wheel and 255 tire without modification (and 265 easily with added front camber and a smaller spring coilover)
Last edited by TheJuggernaut; 08-13-2018 at 01:03 PM.
You might take a look at the e46 330 cars (Coupes and Sedans - Skip the ZHP cars they are not Spece46 legal), you can build a nice HPDE car and then transform it into a Spec E46 race car. you can fit a 17x9 wheel with a 255 tire with ease. The cars are getting cheap, 3k should snag a decent car. Go through the cooling system and have at it. Once you progress throw the spec e46 suspension on it and have even more fun! I went from the e36 to the e46 chassis, while there isn't a whole lot of difference, I like the e46 chassis better. Newer, but the same issues as the e36 with regards to bushings, cooling, and chassis reinforcements. You get a better interior while it is still a street car and that was well worth the switch. I'm not a Miata fan, but I'm also a bigger dude.
With the purchase of my car, wheels, tires, rotors, pads, brake lines, and fluid (the bare minimum to get you on the track). I'm right at the 5K mark and have about 6 weekends on the car at the track. This winter the cooling system will be replaced as a preventative measure (I show it was replaced a year ago in the records but I like the peace of mind), as well as a roll bar, fixed back seats, and harnesses. I'll learn the car with those improvements and in a year buy the MCS suspension once I get to TT.
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^ This is a solid recommendation. With the understanding to get it to a competitive E46Spec, it's pricey. Just suspension and LSD is $6k ish. But that's NOT needed for HDPE.
Right, it gets pricey for any race car... A ready to go Spec e46 is a 30-40k deal on the ready to race market, see Jason Tower in the Spece46 forum or on Facebook. But ya know it makes sense, they didn't spec the best of the best triple adjustable MCS shocks with remotes. The average upper-level HPDE or TT car is going to have this type of suspension anyway, you're going to make suspension bushing upgrades, replace the exhaust, and try to find more time. Why not go about it in a way that you don't have to spend money twice to get good results. In fact, the Spec e46 in HPDE/TT form without a cage seems like a great way to progress. At least to me, this is my plan. For 10K you have a great HPDE car that is halfway to being a competitive Spec car or you can run in the power/weight ratio classes as well with decent results.
Another thing to do would be to go to the NASA nationals in Austin at COTA and check out the different cars there. You're not far away!
"In fact, the Spec e46 in HPDE/TT form without a cage seems like a great way to progress. At least to me, this is my plan."
I've been lightly shopping for a well used E46 330Ci for a while, for just this plan.
There are a lot of them out there right now, in fact just in the Memphis area, there are a few on craigslist at any given time for 2-4K.The best part, for you anyway, you're right in the middle of the action on the east coast.
You are assuming the OP has any intents with regards to racing. ALWAYS buy, not build. Unless you are a masochist such as myself, there are plenty of HPDE options built up on racingjunk that would be 50c on the dollar and a whole hell of a lot of fun.
Seems pointless until the OP weighs in on my question above: Whats the end game (goal)? Whats the budget?
You have a VERY good point... I am a masochist... I like building my junk...
I like building my own stuff too. It's part of the (expensive) hobby for me.
you might want to look at my 99 M3 thats for sale totally set up for HPDE car that you can drive to the track.
Strongly recommend something newer than an E36. These cars have a constant maintenance requirement, even when built to top specs, and requires a fair bit of time. As mentioned, consumables are cheap, except some of these parts are remanufactured only that suck up time/money (power steering pump, reman z3 power steering racks). I'm finding that even my "new" parts are failing very quickly. Miata's are cheap, except there is a constant maintenance requirement that will suck a lot of time.
It seems the continuous tradeoff is a matter of Maintenance OPEX vs CAPEX with regards to a track car. Would a new Miata/Corvette/M3 let you spend little else besides fuel and consumables for 5 years while having just as much fun as an e36? Yup! Is it going to cost you an extra 20k over that time to do it (including the cost of the car)? Yup!
This hobby is going to empty your pockets one way or another, but you have to weigh constant/nagging $500 maintenance repairs against a $40k loan.
If you dread buying new parts and getting under your car twice a month to install them, the e36 is NOT for you. Believe it or not, some people enjoy the time suck as a hobby. I am starting to fade from the hobbiest to the non-hobbiest as I get older and have more family commitments.
I dunno. Once the car is in shape, it pretty much only requires winter work for preventative maintenance. I rarely touch my car during the track season. Just brakes and oil changes.
That said, old Miatas are pretty ideal. I'd have one if i could fit in one. Heck, i'd have a deposit down on a ND2 if i could fit in one.
Last edited by TXBDan; 08-16-2018 at 02:24 PM.
It depends how fast you go and push the car. So far my car has had at least 2-3 things that needed attention after every track event. Most recently my battery started leaking (voltage regulator problem or battery age?) which required some cleanup of the rear area to prevent rust (e.g., some clean up of surface rust because the acid ate the paint away and paint). Oh, and my brand new reman Z3 rack exploded. It failed in 4 different spots. I've done the job several times and each time it is a total PITA messy job. Car should go in for an alignment now. I keep thinking that this last round will make the car stable for a few events. Nope... always something.
With all of the grassroots hoopla, I really should go down to the dealer when the new ones come out. Never ridden in one before but they sure have a cult following like no other enthusiast car in the world. A part of me would find immense enjoyment only worrying about remembering to register for HPDE's, not having to do any prep work in the weeks leading up to one!
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Lol, potshot at Dan! If this is the case, my car shouldn't even need oil changes, let alone all of the other BS i have done to keep it working as intended (given how slow I am)!
If you want to go on the cheap E-30 1st choice E-36 second
E30 front rotors are 18.00. Rears 21.00 A good front control arm with ball joints 90.00. Strip it out your less the 2500 lb car Tires are 15” With a fender roller u can fit a 245 tire under it E30 with a M-50 swap. They are plentiful
lighter car equal less stress on bushing suspension tires. Etc
for every 50 lb loss equals to increase corner capacity by 4%
Last edited by revzillia; 08-16-2018 at 07:53 PM.
A solid medium! I run 7-8 weekends a year, always on rcomps. I run time trials on R1-Ss or R7s. I don't, however, run 30 min sprint races on R7s which would be a lot tougher on the car. I'm also pretty obsessive about preventative maintenance in the off season. I've never had a mechanical in 13 years of doing this.
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