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Thread: Street/Track Car Safety Equipment

  1. #1
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    Street/Track Car Safety Equipment

    I am looking for an honest discussion of safety equipment as it relates to a track car that spends some time on the street. I am working my way up through the HPDE ranks and hope to be doing TT next year. However, the stock seats DO NOT CUT IT. I'm getting faster and pushing the car harder and that combined with some sticky tires makes my big butt not exactly planted anymore... My legs are doing 2x the work just holding my in the car instead of what they are supposed to be doing...

    So what's the progression? I know the end result will be fixed back seats, roll bar, and harnesses. Equal restraints are the requirement in HPDE with Instructors in most HPDE circles so let's stick to that principle. Eventually, the end result is a Spec E46 car but that is a whole different league of safety equipment, I would like to drive the car on the street until it is time to down that rabbit hole. Full cage on the street just isn't my cup of tea.

    Is it acceptable to run a fixed back seat without a roll bar/half cage? Does one need to go ALL IN or nothing? ie stick with sucky stock seats or do fixed back seats, harnesses, and rollbar. I have seen quite a few cars at events with a fixed back seat and 3 point belts (Routed properly through the holes), is this accepted in most HPDE organizations? Once the car has a rollbar and fixed back seats do they need to have harnesses. What passes tech at PCA/NASA events and what is safe?

    My thought was to go ahead and get a pair of fixed back seats and use the 3 point belts for the remainder of this season. Then this winter get a real half cage built and install harnesses at that time.

    Once the car has fixed back seats, harnesses, and a roll bar, what do we do about the airbags? Pull a fuse? Remember this is still a sometimes street car with 90% of the miles being on the track. I may drive it to work a few times a week or to get it on a lift to go over before my next track weekend.

    Sorry if this has been beaten to death, I searched around and didn't find a whole lot other than don't cage a street car you'll have scrambled brains (I agree DOM tubing kinda hurts).

    The build thread for the car is here: https://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/s...1#post30075151

    There are a lot of areas that need to be improved on the car. I would like to get the spec e46 suspension on the car, however, I feel that I need to focus on the safety equipment before I can reach the benefit of the suspension with better feel and control of the car.

  2. #2
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    Safety is a system, not a single item.

    If you go with fixed back seat, a rollbar is required. Without it, you become the rollbar in a roll over.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by HalfFast1 View Post
    Safety is a system, not a single item.

    If you go with fixed back seat, a rollbar is required. Without it, you become the rollbar in a roll over.
    That is what I am leaning towards the more a research the subject. It all works together.

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    For me, I would start with a roll bar, then seats, then harnesses. You need the roll bar first, and can use fixed seats with 3 point belts without issue.

    Don't forget that with 6 points it's highly encouraged, and in some cases required, to have some type of neck restraint set up IE Hans

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by misterwaterfall View Post
    For me, I would start with a roll bar, then seats, then harnesses. You need the roll bar first, and can use fixed seats with 3 point belts without issue.

    Don't forget that with 6 points it's highly encouraged, and in some cases required, to have some type of neck restraint set up IE Hans
    I have not heard that a Hans is required but that may be a regional thing? Personally when the rest of this equipment is installed a Hans will be included.

  6. #6
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    HPDE groups i have been with do not require anything other then helmet. its non competitive so doesn't fall into any sanctioned group of rules. per say. the equal driver passenger safety is the only part i know of also. i got a ride with an instructor in e46 M3 he's in his nice seat, harness, Hans, cage, i was in the OEM passenger equipment i joked about my less safety, he said he doesn't go but 7/10th with pax so i was ok with it.

    fixed seats and OEM belts are a great start and i feel good step. Hans are highly recommended, the hybrid ones too that don't require shoulder straps are popular with instructors as they ride in OEM cars.

    i won't argue the roll bar street driven without helmet, harness debate.

    do you have a cage builder in TN? i was referred to Kirk in B'ham AL by one of the NASA group leaders that did an event at MIR. they are familiar with the required NASA cage specs.

  7. #7
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    We do NOT have a good cage builder in the TN/MS/AR Memphis area. Top Garage in Atlanta and Izzy in St. Louis are where most seem to go for a quality cage. I know kirk from their bolt in rollbars, but didn't know that they also did custom work. I pass by them at least once a month on my way to Florida. I may give them a call about doing my half cage. I know I'll be removing the roof skin at some point anyway so I don't mind welding in the half cage.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pzary3233 View Post
    I have not heard that a Hans is required but that may be a regional thing? Personally when the rest of this equipment is installed a Hans will be included.
    as of 2019 PCA requires it, and I expect others to follow suit. Racing orgs already require it as well, which is where many track day providers take their direction from it seems.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by misterwaterfall View Post
    as of 2019 PCA requires it, and I expect others to follow suit. Racing orgs already require it as well, which is where many track day providers take their direction from it seems.
    Ahh gotcha, it wasn't in their 2018 stuff, but I can understand it not being far from required.

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    You should start by making yourself comfortable and safe as a driver. If that means a fixed back seat with OEM seat belt, then start there. Moving around in the seat is not safe for you as a driver nor is it safe for your instructor.

    Safety is a system and is comprised of many parts, but you have to start somewhere. You don't need the roll bar and harnesses to be safe - they are safER but you can also build a system of safety over time as long as any one piece doesn't make you LESS safe than the OEM system.


  11. #11
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    That was my initial thought, I feel like I could gain time simply with a more supportive seat.

    I'm not opposed to going full tilt but I'd like to incrementally do it.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by darbyfam View Post
    You should start by making yourself comfortable and safe as a driver. If that means a fixed back seat with OEM seat belt, then start there. Moving around in the seat is not safe for you as a driver nor is it safe for your instructor.

    Safety is a system and is comprised of many parts, but you have to start somewhere. You don't need the roll bar and harnesses to be safe - they are safER but you can also build a system of safety over time as long as any one piece doesn't make you LESS safe than the OEM system.
    While there are a few fixed back seats that are 3 point belt compatible (e.g. momo RS GT), most seats that are for 5/6 point belts really aren't. I am not comfortable recommending a fixed back without roll over protection as oem seats are actually designed to collapse in that situation so the driver doesn't become the rollover hard point.

    If you want to feel more secure in the OEM seat, consider a CG lock (https://store.windingroad.com/cg-loc...dd-on-p49.aspx) until you reach a point where you are going with all the necessary gear to do it right.

  13. #13
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    Less chance of a rollover if the driver is securely belted in his seat. I am not advocating only getting a fixed-back seat and stopping there. I am merely suggesting you don't have to do it all at once. Many times people scare away HPDE drivers by suggesting everything needs to be done at once. Again, I think it all should be done eventually, especially as a person progresses in speed and moves to stickier tires, but I wouldn't want someone to NOT do a safety improvement simply because someone told them they had to do X, Y, and Z rather than X then Y then Z.

    I have been an instructor for quite a while (PCA, BMWCCA, PBOC, CHIN, NASA) and currently serve as a NASA Region TT Director and Asst. Regional Director. I am not coming at this without some past experience in the area.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Pzary3233 View Post
    That was my initial thought, I feel like I could gain time simply with a more supportive seat.

    I'm not opposed to going full tilt but I'd like to incrementally do it.
    I also don't want you to think that I am suggesting you do this to reduce your lap times. HPDE is not about reducing lap times - it's about driver education and getting the fundamentals down. I am suggesting that it's hard to get through the fundamentals (looking ahead, situational awareness, car control, etc) when you are flopping around in a seat. Worry about lap times later.


  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by darbyfam View Post
    You should start by making yourself comfortable and safe as a driver. If that means a fixed back seat with OEM seat belt, then start there. Moving around in the seat is not safe for you as a driver nor is it safe for your instructor.
    Agree 100%. Also, it's very rare that you see a rollover with structural compromise of the roof. That would be one hell of a wreck. On the other hand, your butt is sloshing around in the stock seats about 10 times per lap.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by misterwaterfall View Post
    as of 2019 PCA requires it, and I expect others to follow suit. Racing orgs already require it as well, which is where many track day providers take their direction from it seems.
    I think you find that PCA required it as of July 1, 2018 (now).

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by misterwaterfall View Post
    For me, I would start with a roll bar, then seats, then harnesses. You need the roll bar first, and can use fixed seats with 3 point belts without issue.

    Don't forget that with 6 points it's highly encouraged, and in some cases required, to have some type of neck restraint set up IE Hans
    3 point OE belts with a roll bar is dangerous and low benefit. You understand that in a crash - the 3 point belts allow a lot of movement of the body - right? If your head gets into the roll bar - you're going to having all of your meals through a straw.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by OCRentAPopo View Post
    Agree 100%. Also, it's very rare that you see a rollover with structural compromise of the roof. That would be one hell of a wreck. On the other hand, your butt is sloshing around in the stock seats about 10 times per lap.
    ^^This. There's a LOT of misinformation on the nets about the best safety setup in HPDE and even TT. It *is* different than racing, and can be managed differently than racing. Roll overs and/or side impacts are damn rare.
    I have never seen any DOT document stating the requirements for a seat to 'fold' in a rollover, yet everyone says that's they way they are designed. I call big stinking BS.
    Schroth, and others, have a fair amount of documentation that on track, the biggest risk in a crash is body parts ending up out of the seat, and outside the car. By far, this risk is much higher than a rollover, and even less likely is a crushed roof. You have to do the research yourself to decide what's best for you. But I'll say you won't get what you need strictly on a forum.

    For ME, HPDE only, straping myself in, keeping body parts in place, keeping control of the car, etc, are far more important than a roll bar or full cage.

    Then, there's the issue of air bag. And if you have a roll bar on the street, what happens to your head in a crash.
    Last edited by aeronaut; 08-04-2018 at 09:19 PM.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by OCRentAPopo View Post
    Agree 100%. Also, it's very rare that you see a rollover with structural compromise of the roof. That would be one hell of a wreck. On the other hand, your butt is sloshing around in the stock seats about 10 times per lap.
    I have... My Credentials: 17 years working emergency services with many race groups (SCCA, NASA, PCA, AER, IMSA).

    In the end it's your car, and your risk.

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    I've always found the discussion of requiring a cage with fixed back seats interesting, when BMW produced a street car (maybe others as well) with fixed back seats with no cage. The Porsches that allow fixed back seats as options also do not require the cage, but rather have it as an option. BMW has since included cages in the later GTS cars, but they were a bit more extreme than the M3 CSL all around. Just a topic of conversation..

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    Quote Originally Posted by HalfFast1 View Post
    I have... My Credentials: 17 years working emergency services with many race groups (SCCA, NASA, PCA, AER, IMSA).

    In the end it's your car, and your risk.
    Yes, rollovers with structural compromise of the roof do happen but I'd bet you've seen less than 5 in your 17 years of experience. My point is, the driver is safer when not struggling to stay in position on stock seats and that added bit of safety comes into play every single corner.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by OCRentAPopo View Post
    Yes, rollovers with structural compromise of the roof do happen but I'd bet you've seen less than 5 in your 17 years of experience. My point is, the driver is safer when not struggling to stay in position on stock seats and that added bit of safety comes into play every single corner.
    Yep! I'm FOR anything that limits body and body parts from moving during driving, and in a crash. 4 point Schroth, 5-6 pnt harness with (quality) harness bar, HANS, quality seat with good bolstering (folding or non-folding) and NO ROLL BAR is much better than OEM seat and 3 point..... IMO. No doubt, it is not trivial to pick all these so they work together.

    And again, every time one of these threads is started, someone states "oem seats are designed to fold in a roll over". I've never seen anything to support that. I actually expect it's in direct conflict of the seat's design requirements in a full on rear end or front end collision.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by aeronaut View Post
    Yep! I'm FOR anything that limits body and body parts from moving during driving, and in a crash. 4 point Schroth, 5-6 pnt harness with (quality) harness bar, HANS, quality seat with good bolstering (folding or non-folding) and NO ROLL BAR is much better than OEM seat and 3 point..... IMO. No doubt, it is not trivial to pick all these so they work together.

    And again, every time one of these threads is started, someone states "oem seats are designed to fold in a roll over". I've never seen anything to support that. I actually expect it's in direct conflict of the seat's design requirements in a full on rear end or front end collision.
    No that is the point of this thread, I am trying to figure out how to safely make this all work together. Roll Bar, Seat, Harnesses, etc. I really like the discussion, thank you guys! I would love to be able to buy one set of seats and harnesses (For HPDE) and then be able to reuse at least the seat in the start of my W2W when I get to that point.

    I work in the auto salvage industry, seats in normal passenger cars are not designed to fold in a rollover. They are designed to try to contain you. I see it time and time again the seat is still upright. The older vehicles tend to have weaker seats and I do believe it is more of a Strength/Design thing where they were not strong enough in the impact to contain the body. If the seats were supposed to fold down the airbags wouldn't be as effective. Granted all of this is related to a street car and not to our beloved track cars.

    I have started diving deeper down the rabbit hole looking at harnesses and the many seat and harness mounting solutions that are offered. It is mind boggling... There seem to be two schools of thought, one fastens the harness to the vehicle, or the other fastens harness to the seat mounts (Including the sub straps). I think that most groups are required to be anchored to the actual body so you stay secure even if the seat mount fails, makes sense to me. However, the allure of an easy harness fastening solution built into the seat mounts is hard to ignore for some.

    From the conversations I have seen in this thread, I am reminded that there is no amount of money worth saving trying to cheat corners in this department that I really should do it all as one cohesive system. The biggest purchase is the pair of seats as required for "equal restraints"... The rest of it isn't terribly expensive. Why bother going half way when the biggest hurdle is already jumped? It just means I don't buy my MCS suspension bits till next year. I like being safe more than going faster.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by aeronaut View Post
    And again, every time one of these threads is started, someone states "oem seats are designed to fold in a roll over". I've never seen anything to support that. I actually expect it's in direct conflict of the seat's design requirements in a full on rear end or front end collision.
    Yeah, no one ever backs that claim up and it doesn't make sense. The last thing you want to ever happen is a seatback to break, it's part of the restraint system that keeps you in place.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Ye72Fg2xjs

    That's also a perfect example of why you don't ever want to run folding seats with a cage without a mount to hold the seatback in place.
    Last edited by Crustashio; 08-07-2018 at 12:28 PM.

  23. #23
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    Then you see this posted in the build thread section...

    https://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/s...-to-full-Track

    Slow motion roll over but it does happen!

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crustashio View Post
    Yeah, no one ever backs that claim up and it doesn't make sense. The last thing you want to ever happen is a seatback to break, it's part of the restraint system that keeps you in place.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Ye72Fg2xjs

    That's also a perfect example of why you don't ever want to run folding seats with a cage without a mount to hold the seatback in place.
    As an instructor, I hate that video. LOL.
    I *think* I would have prevented that crash. (I tell myself that anyway.)

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Pzary3233 View Post
    Then you see this posted in the build thread section...

    https://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/s...-to-full-Track

    Slow motion roll over but it does happen!
    They do happen. This one in particular seems to support the idea that " all or nothing safety equipment" isn't fully supported. He didn't have a cage, and the roof didn't collapse. If I'm reading it correctly.

    And hopefully we all understand that for a track car, having EVERY possible piece of safety equipment is safest. But that's not the debate. The debate is cost vs street-able vs track safety. That is, is something other than all-in safer than OEM.
    Last edited by aeronaut; 08-07-2018 at 04:13 PM.

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    ^ Judging by his for sale threads at the time he was building the car he had a harness bar in the car at the time of the wreck.

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