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Thread: Anyone in the Salt Lake City Area that is good to install a subframe kit?

  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonesmechanical View Post
    I ordered two sets of the cap bolts, I counted 8 each side on my 2.79 diff (quaife). I ordered two sets but only received one set.

    I'm looking now at all the kits Jon sells, and the all only come with 8 bolts total with his upgraded clutch kits for BMW differentials.

    I have a local guy that was going to rehad everything today, and I thought I had all the parts, but now I'm nervous....

    Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk
    Couldn't he rebuild/reassemble leaving out every other bolt, and then you could install & torque to spec the remainder?

    This from yesterday (your goal) though I had a little something different in mind if I was going to do a high-output car like yours again; a minor detail using a 1" long piece of 3-1/2" x .120 wall tubing to support the pendants below the bolt holes (instead of the little pyramid pieces).




  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randy Forbes View Post
    Couldn't he rebuild/reassemble leaving out every other bolt, and then you could install & torque to spec the remainder?

    This from yesterday (your goal) though I had a little something different in mind if I was going to do a high-output car like yours again; a minor detail using a 1" long piece of 3-1/2" x .120 wall tubing to support the pendants below the bolt holes (instead of the little pyramid pieces).



    That's a great idea, I was just thinking that the bolts had to go in before the diff is reinstalled in the case.

    Randy, I'm not understanding the 3.5" tubing mod. I can't spot it anywhere in your photos....then of course I'm not as good as my 4 year old daughter is at where Waldo.....

    Question Randy....what causes this failure. Could an uprated sway bar contribute heavily to it, it looks like the floor deflection spot where it separated on the driver's side was right at where the swaybar attachment point is. And has anyone had to do this fix more than once, is there anything additional we can do that you would recommend like this 3.5" tubing addition (please detail more). Did Thayer do your kit, and how has his car done? Thayer is brutal in how he uses his car with the power he has. Combine the power with auto cross use in lower gears just amazing loads. I haven't followed things here lately on everyone so I'm not aware.


    The hope with the turbo setup was not to create more torque, but more horsepower through efficiency. But the reality is, the borwarner 9180 turbo, even with it's massive 1.45a/r and larger turbine/compressor, still spools significantly earlier than the smaller gt40r I had on it. We had to add fuel all over the map, and much earlier in the rpm range. The up top power capability of the 9180 is about 50% more than the Garrett 40r setup. The technology between turbos is significant to make this happoen. Radowski work of art twin scroll manifold also is helping over the old AA cast log manifold that was t3-t4 converted with a welded on plate.

    No disrespect to Karl and AA, they built an amazing car for an amazing client, and it's done perfect for me after 10 years of fun, and if I could confidently improve it on it, I have done my best to do that. What's available today is not what was available 20 years ago.







    Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

    1999 M coupe, Black/Kyalami Orange, Sunroof Delete; GT4088R turbo, 610 WHP @ 22PSI Pump Gas; 2.79 Gearing; TCK D/A's; Forgelines 19x9 et38 w/265 30's; 19x11.5 et19 w/305 30's. Brembo GT Brakes; Race Logic Traction Control.

    1971 Datsun 510: High Compression VG34e, CAI,Fuji Blue, GC C/O's; system, Penultimate Rear Crossmember R160 lsd 3.70, cv axels; CCW LM16's 16 x 7.5/8.5 w/215 40 and 245 35 T1R's.

  3. #28
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    Like this Randy? If that's what you were saying, man, that is the last spot I would think would deform/or need reinforcement. Sure stiffening the whole perimeter around the attachement point could benefit, but I see loads loads out towards the side of the car where you have essentialled designed a weld in/Integrated ibeam traversly, then with wings longidutely spread out the twisting force. As that load is mostly twisting at the bolt on points of the differential (how the single bolt diff handles that is unbelievable) and not front to back, doing that tube mod seems like not the first place I would focus. If anything I would focus on lengthening the longitudinal support back further where the trunk separated towards the back bumper.

    All that said, holy crap, the improvement over stock as far as the load distribution of the diff in how it's connected to the unibody has to be a magnitude of 100x. Where the stock body had a few spot welds to light guage stamped sheet metal brackets, and now it's two locations connected to thicker guage steel ibeam....wow.

    My main question on welding here. On the other end of the "pyramids", where the ear goes through the trunk, onto the vertical leg of the ibeam, welds in, that's awesome, then it welds to the top two legs of the ibeam and all seam welds from the top. My question is what I see as a critical weld. The top of the pyramids, you are welding to the unibody with thick metal behind it. Essentially i see the unibody as weld filler at that spot, and it needs to weld and make penetration to the lower plate of the ibeam on the other side of the unibody. Hopefully that makes sense. I just don't see any burn through the unibody like I would imagine.

    I would think that is one of the most critical welds, to get penetration through the unibody metal and to the backing plate. Maybe even worth drilling out the unibody there so it welds direct.....that support weld if only welded to the unibody there would be vulnerable to cracking/separating, but if penetration makes it through the unibody to the backing plate....that's what we need right?


    Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

    1999 M coupe, Black/Kyalami Orange, Sunroof Delete; GT4088R turbo, 610 WHP @ 22PSI Pump Gas; 2.79 Gearing; TCK D/A's; Forgelines 19x9 et38 w/265 30's; 19x11.5 et19 w/305 30's. Brembo GT Brakes; Race Logic Traction Control.

    1971 Datsun 510: High Compression VG34e, CAI,Fuji Blue, GC C/O's; system, Penultimate Rear Crossmember R160 lsd 3.70, cv axels; CCW LM16's 16 x 7.5/8.5 w/215 40 and 245 35 T1R's.

  4. #29
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    My bad, it was 2-1/2" (that's what I had, but edited it to 3-1/2"__dumb).

    I just took some pics to get my point across, but I'll have to get them off the camera and upload later on.

    As for the floor, it's too weak__plain and simple! A stronger XMBR would've made all the difference. The diff pulls down the brkt/xmbr while the floor wants to stay put, hence fracturing the spotwelds. IT WILL pull ALL OF THEM if let go long enough (I have proof).

    Placing the I-beam inside the hollow XMBR and supporting it off the longitudinal rails has handled everything at least up to 650 rwhp (not sure what the upper limit is, but sooner or later, someone will exploit it... )

    A heavier rear swaybar will do one/both: bend/break the tabs on the trailing arms, and/or pull the brkt right off the body__have plenty of proof of that too! I do not think the swaybar loads are responsible for any more than a small percentage of the load on the xmbr sag, as they're attached pretty close to the long. rails, unlike the diff brkt.

  5. #30
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    After seeing your last post...

    The pendants (top side of the pyramids_ are welded to the bottom plate of the I-beam from the topside, AND THEN are in turn lap-welded to the vertical membrane of the I-beam. Upon closing, the two (2) pieces that comprise the top plate, the vertical membrane and the pendants are all welded together.

    I think that covers your concern about welding through from the bottom?

    Oh, and yes, you did understand my tubing thing :thumbup

  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonesmechanical View Post
    Like this Randy? If that's what you were saying, man, that is the last spot I would think would deform/or need reinforcement. Sure stiffening the whole perimeter around the attachement point could benefit, but I see loads loads out towards the side of the car where you have essentialled designed a weld in/Integrated ibeam traversly, then with wings longidutely spread out the twisting force. As that load is mostly twisting at the bolt on points of the differential (how the single bolt diff handles that is unbelievable) and not front to back, doing that tube mod seems like not the first place I would focus. If anything I would focus on lengthening the longitudinal support back further where the trunk separated towards the back bumper.

    All that said, holy crap, the improvement over stock as far as the load distribution of the diff in how it's connected to the unibody has to be a magnitude of 100x. Where the stock body had a few spot welds to light guage stamped sheet metal brackets, and now it's two locations connected to thicker guage steel ibeam....wow.

    My main question on welding here. On the other end of the "pyramids", where the ear goes through the trunk, onto the vertical leg of the ibeam, welds in, that's awesome, then it welds to the top two legs of the ibeam and all seam welds from the top. My question is what I see as a critical weld. The top of the pyramids, you are welding to the unibody with thick metal behind it. Essentially i see the unibody as weld filler at that spot, and it needs to weld and make penetration to the lower plate of the ibeam on the other side of the unibody. Hopefully that makes sense. I just don't see any burn through the unibody like I would imagine.

    I would think that is one of the most critical welds, to get penetration through the unibody metal and to the backing plate. Maybe even worth drilling out the unibody there so it welds direct.....that support weld if only welded to the unibody there would be vulnerable to cracking/separating, but if penetration makes it through the unibody to the backing plate....that's what we need right?


    Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk
    For clarification, I took this pic this afternoon, but it confirms that you knew what I described earlier.


  7. #32
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    Has anyone considered or spoken with the local high school vocational or auto classes about this kit install? I realize it would be a huge risk, but under the supervision of a teacher, it might give the kids something different to work on. I have not contacted the scools but wonder if anyone has considered it or not.

    I think it might be a win win for the students and obviously the owner!!!

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveG66 View Post
    Has anyone considered or spoken with the local high school vocational or auto classes about this kit install? I realize it would be a huge risk, but under the supervision of a teacher, it might give the kids something different to work on. I have not contacted the scools but wonder if anyone has considered it or not.

    I think it might be a win win for the students and obviously the owner!!!
    I wouldnt trust a high schooler to perform critical chassis welds on my car...

  9. #34
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    BimmerBreaker, good point, just throwing an idea out there.

  10. #35
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    Back in auto shop (early 80's), our instructor, who had a gorgeous 66 sunbeam tiger, oversaw all of the critical work in his class. But that was back in the 80's and with someone who cared about his craft. In this instance, I would trust his class to install Randy's subframe kit.
    Tony
    "You can't sign away negligence."

  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randy Forbes View Post
    For clarification, I took this pic this afternoon, but it confirms that you knew what I described earlier.

    Yes, we are on the same page.

    Randy, as far as the installation, I'm still confused. Ill ask my question with more specifics as it pertains the weld I have circled, and the process of placing the ears through the body, onto the vertical section of the ibeam, through the cut slots in the base of the ibeam.

    In the great pictorals you have of the process of installing this kit, there are a few missing pictures of the process.

    After welding down the first piece on the inside of the exising substructure, that requires lots of clamping to form to the inside space of the existing subframe (call it the "bottom of the i beam"), and perhaps before welding in the the vertical section of the ibeam against that lower floor section of the ibeam, there are slots to pass through the plate that are for the "ears" that hold the differential.

    My temptation is to cut out a large square in the factory unibody structure to epose the lower beam where those slots are so the "pyramid" sections can be welded directly to the bottom of the ibeam, and not have a thin layer of existing unibody inbetween the "pyramid" and the underside of the ibeam. Otherwise, you are just hoping that the unibody does act as filler, and the weld penetration makes it through the unibody to the bottom of the ibeam plate.

    My first instinct was to just take a drill bit and pilot each side of the slot/pass through on the base plate of the ibeam through the unibody for the differential ears and then take a cutting wheel to expose that slot through the unibody. But I'm asking my self (again) why not just open up that unibody more to allow for direct connection/weld between the top of the "pyramid" and the bottom of the iBeam, as leaving that unibody in that specific spot really just potentially compromises the connection you want between the bottom of the ibeam, and the support of the pyramids to the bottom of that beam.

    And I assume that the ears weld to the vertical member of the ibeam after the vertical member is welded in place inside the car (the only way I see getting accurate placement/adustment of the ears). Its a little tight in there, but I don't seen any issue of doing it that way.

    I just ask this because I haven't seen any pictures of this part of the process. All pictorals go straight from the bottom of the ibeam welded in, then step next to the vertical ibeam being welded in, along with the ears welded in, and pyramids welded, showing no specfic steps in between.

    1999 M coupe, Black/Kyalami Orange, Sunroof Delete; GT4088R turbo, 610 WHP @ 22PSI Pump Gas; 2.79 Gearing; TCK D/A's; Forgelines 19x9 et38 w/265 30's; 19x11.5 et19 w/305 30's. Brembo GT Brakes; Race Logic Traction Control.

    1971 Datsun 510: High Compression VG34e, CAI,Fuji Blue, GC C/O's; system, Penultimate Rear Crossmember R160 lsd 3.70, cv axels; CCW LM16's 16 x 7.5/8.5 w/215 40 and 245 35 T1R's.

  12. #37
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    Ahh, I see what you're getting at...

    Those pendants that pass through the unibody (or the hollow crossmember) ARE welded to the bottom plate BEFORE the vertical piece is put in place. You COULD weld them to the bottom of the plate as you're suggesting, but once the installation is finished, I don't rely on that original crossmember as anything more than weather protection (a dust cover) for the I-beam concealed within.

    Looking for pictures of some intermediate steps...

    Pendants pass through bottom plate and crossmember (unibody) and do notice that in the area of that existing hole, you do actually weld the pendant to the lower face of the bottom plate of the I-beam



    The pendants do get solidly welded to the bottom plate on the top/forward side (backside with visible heat signature)



    Weld only on the forward side, as the vertical piece needs to lay flush against those pendants on the rearward side.



    Looking at the forward side





    I weld the vertical piece to the pendants next (then use one of the top plates to make sure it's straight from LH to RH side__the heat pulls the tips forward from in the welding process from shrinking the forward side)



    Tack the tips to the bottom plate once they're put back into place





    Then stitch the vertical and bottom pieces together; interspersed with stitches on the forward side



    I coat the inside before going any further; some will be removed/burned off the top edge, but we can be thankful for what remains, and moisture__if any__will condense on the floor.



    My phone number is on the instructions (first and last pages, I think) so call me if you have any questions. Please leave a short message though, as I get sooo many bs-robocalls, I don't even answer unless I already have the caller in my id.

  13. #38
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    Randy, perfect. That's exactly what I needed to see. We got the base welded in. We are ready for the next step. This would actually be fun to do if it were a regular repeat thing, and had dedicated setup and process. I'm sure it's taking 10x's longer to get done with someone like you doing it, but the first go around.

    I can only imagine the first z3 you encountered with this issue, and how you finally arrived at this genius and worthy solution. It's intense and I can think of nothing to improve beyond what you have thoughtfully engineered.

    Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

    1999 M coupe, Black/Kyalami Orange, Sunroof Delete; GT4088R turbo, 610 WHP @ 22PSI Pump Gas; 2.79 Gearing; TCK D/A's; Forgelines 19x9 et38 w/265 30's; 19x11.5 et19 w/305 30's. Brembo GT Brakes; Race Logic Traction Control.

    1971 Datsun 510: High Compression VG34e, CAI,Fuji Blue, GC C/O's; system, Penultimate Rear Crossmember R160 lsd 3.70, cv axels; CCW LM16's 16 x 7.5/8.5 w/215 40 and 245 35 T1R's.

  14. #39
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    Great! Yes, I ramped up pretty fast, but there's no denying I'm on a downward slope now__just can't seem to get as much accomplished in the same amount of time (and then there's the "catch up time...**).

    There's also no denying that I still enjoy what I'm doing, and I'll continue as long as I can still turn out quality work (urging anybody that's on the fence about having ME do it, should do so sooner rather than later).

    The first car I encountered was my own '01 M Rdsr (and then making the same discovery on our '99 M Rdstr) so I was plenty motivated! Both my cars were still under warranty, and were inspected by BMW's area rep, but they took so long to approve the repair that I came up with the first prototype beforehand; SOMEBODY WAS GOING TO FIX IT, if not them, then me! As it transpired, the replacement of the trunkfloors (both cars) were approved, but I wasn't really all that comfortable with cutting an otherwise good car in half because of a few broken spotwelds (1-1/2 to 2 on the '01 & 2-3 on the '99) so when I took the '99 into the local BMW's bodyshop, I left all the reinforcement pieces laying in the trunk. The bodymen arranged to have a meeting with me the next day and said that they'd "do the repair anyway I wanted, and that with the full floor repair it would have all the integrity that it left the factory with (corrosion protection, seam-sealing, etc.)." He then went on to say that "in a few more years you'd likely have the same issue again. However, if we do the repair using the pieces you provided, you'll never look back!"

    Gene, the then 20+ yr veteran of BMW body repair schools__he'd just come back after the first of the aluminum 5-Series classes__suggested that I add the bottom plate, changing my initial design from a "T" to an "I" completing the design. I went home and knocked out the bottom plate so they could get started the next morning. So for all the cars I've done, 102 now, I didn't get to do my own Rdstrs (I DID do the Coupe, when it was Zoran's) and looking back, it's too bad; the finish on the bottom of the black car has been touched up a few times already, and needs to be stripped and coated/painted right. The gray car is holding up a little better, but I provided the 2-pack paint that replicates the factory E-coat color (the Coupe I did for Zorn STILL looks like I did is 6-mos ago, and it's been almost 14 years!).

    So thank you for the lofty compliment, that means a lot. While the differential/trunkfloor reinforcement package was conceived to fix just a couple of cars, its popularity has become truly worldwide (on 6 of 7 continents).

    (was looking for a recent pic of the underside of the coupe to "show off" the finish's longevity; if I find it, I'll add... )


    ** cardiologist says I need a valve job, so stamina, I'm hopeful, will improve...
    Last edited by Randy Forbes; 08-07-2018 at 03:38 PM.

  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randy Forbes View Post
    The first car I encountered was my own '01 M Rdsr (and then making the same discovery on our '99 M Rdstr) so I was plenty motivated! Both my cars were still under warranty, and were inspected by BMW's area rep, but they took so long to approve the repair that I came up with the first prototype beforehand; SOMEBODY WAS GOING TO FIX IT, if not them, then me! As it transpired, the replacement of the trunkfloors (both cars) were approved, but I wasn't really all that comfortable with cutting an otherwise good car in half because of a few broken spotwelds (1-1/2 to 2 on the '01 & 2-3 on the '99) so when I took the '99 into the local BMW's bodyshop, I left all the reinforcement pieces laying in the trunk. The bodymen arranged to have a meeting with me the next day and said that they'd "do the repair anyway I wanted, and that with the full floor repair it would have all the integrity that it left the factory with (corrosion protection, seam-sealing, etc.)." He then went on to say that "in a few more years you'd likely have the same issue again. However, if we do the repair using the pieces you provided, you'll never look back!"

    Gene, the then 20+ yr veteran of BMW body repair schools__he'd just come back after the first of the aluminum 5-Series classes__suggested that I add the bottom plate, changing my initial design from a "T" to an "I" completing the design. I went home and knocked out the bottom plate so they could get started the next morning. So for all the cars I've done, 102 now, I didn't get to do my own Rdstrs (I DID do the Coupe, when it was Zoran's) and looking back, it's too bad; the finish on the bottom of the black car has been touched up a few times already, and needs to be stripped and coated/painted right. The gray car is holding up a little better, but I provided the 2-pack paint that replicates the factory E-coat color (the Coupe I did for Zorn STILL looks like I did is 6-mos ago, and it's been almost 14 years!).
    Thanks for the backstory. I always wondered how you became the 'trunkfloor guru'. Did you have engineering skills prior to developing the kit?

  16. #41
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    Awesome story Randy.

    It's gone smooth.

    I think all in we'll have about 80 hours in it. It's a big undertaking, but so worth it. I think if the car were clean, and not previously modified or if the trunk hadn't already already started to go, and it wasn't the first go around, it would have gone faster. But it's fun learning and knowing.


    Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

    1999 M coupe, Black/Kyalami Orange, Sunroof Delete; GT4088R turbo, 610 WHP @ 22PSI Pump Gas; 2.79 Gearing; TCK D/A's; Forgelines 19x9 et38 w/265 30's; 19x11.5 et19 w/305 30's. Brembo GT Brakes; Race Logic Traction Control.

    1971 Datsun 510: High Compression VG34e, CAI,Fuji Blue, GC C/O's; system, Penultimate Rear Crossmember R160 lsd 3.70, cv axels; CCW LM16's 16 x 7.5/8.5 w/215 40 and 245 35 T1R's.

  17. #42
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    You guy's are doing a damn good job, I'm looking forward to seeing it finished.


  18. #43
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    Randy,

    So we got a little stuck. You can see from my pics I am used the finned diff cover. The cover is hitting the speed sensor and the speed sensor wheels. I have shaved the cover to clearance it and all is well but the sensor itself still needs to be spaced by a 1/4" to clear the little tabs on the reluctor wheel.

    Have you run into this problem?
    How did you solve it?
    Did you use a different sensor or just space the sensor out?
    If you spaced it how did you seal it?

    Help.

    1999 M coupe, Black/Kyalami Orange, Sunroof Delete; GT4088R turbo, 610 WHP @ 22PSI Pump Gas; 2.79 Gearing; TCK D/A's; Forgelines 19x9 et38 w/265 30's; 19x11.5 et19 w/305 30's. Brembo GT Brakes; Race Logic Traction Control.

    1971 Datsun 510: High Compression VG34e, CAI,Fuji Blue, GC C/O's; system, Penultimate Rear Crossmember R160 lsd 3.70, cv axels; CCW LM16's 16 x 7.5/8.5 w/215 40 and 245 35 T1R's.

  19. #44
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    I think you can try the speed sensor from the 3.0L, it has a slightly different offset to make up for the change in cover thickness.
    P/N 62168357020

  20. #45
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    You will need to change the reluctor wheel or trim it down, also you need the speed sensor as scenturion mentioned.
    Last edited by Z3 M Roadster; 08-13-2018 at 04:33 PM.


  21. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z3 M Roadster View Post
    You will need to change the reluctor wheel or trim it down, also you need the speed sensor as scenturion mentioned.
    All true. Kits are usually packed with reluctor wheel__or they were, seems to have gone, at least temporarily NLA__and the 020 signal generator is in the parts list page of the installation instructions.

    If you no longer have a copy (would've been sent in email to confirm receipt of PayPal payment) I can send it again.

  22. #47
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    ECS Tuning has the reluctor wheel for $12.38 and the signal generator $31.05


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