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Thread: 328i not starting

  1. #1
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    328i not starting

    Hey guys

    This is my first post here, I've had the account for quite awhile but this is the first time I'm completely stuck and could use the help of some people who know more about it than I do.
    So, I bought a E36 coupé about a year ago, 1993 M50 320i manual, complete ricer, but it was cheap so it was perfect to turn into a little project. Engine wise it was completely stock, and it ran like it should, save for some ticking sounds coming from the Vanos or valves.
    My brother had a sedan sat in our backyard, was an engine swap, it was a 320 on paper as well, now it had a 328i auto in it, but the diff and all that was still original so that gave out under the extra power of the new engine.
    Obviously, I decided to not fix my engine but swap the 328 into my coupé.
    Now, both cars ran before the swap, so I thought it'd be an easy job, which the actual swap was... but the problems began after the new engine was in my car.
    First off, it's important to notice that the new engine isn't exactly a regular 328i. As far as I know, those are always M52's, but this one isn't. The top of the engine is that of an M50, and the bottom is aluminum, so idk what they did there.
    While doing the swap, I mounted my manual gearbox to the engine, and because of whatever the previous owner did to the engine, the computer was also the same as mine, they're both MS40.1, so I figured to not go through the extra hassle of swapping the wiring harness. Mind you, the harness that came with the engine still had the harness for the autobox attached to it, and they also cut and spliced a ton of wires inside of it, and mine was still original, so it seemed like a good idea at the time.
    So, after the swap, I had, obviously, the new (hybrid) 328i engine in my car, the DME that came with that engine, but the wiring harness from my 320i.
    It ran, but very poorly, constant backfires into my intake, after running for a while it started to smell burned, so all was not right in tinkertown. I thought it was a vacuumproblem at first, but after making sure it couldn't have been that, I started thinking back to the other wiring harness. I figured there must have been a reason why they cut into the harness, so I decided to swap that as well.
    I took out all the autobox wires, removed the computer for the autobox, the second 20-pin connector, since I wouldn't be needing all of that. All that remained was 3 little wires that ran back to the connector from DME. #8, 14 and 20 in the picture below.
    20180725_205557.jpg
    I already rewired the reverse lights to work, and I know one of the 3 should be rewired in order to "trick" the car into thinking it's in neutral. However, I haven't done this yet, and the car does still crank, so I have no idea if this has anything to do with my problem.
    So the actual problem is, the car cranks, but it doesn't start. The fuelpump doesn't receive any power. I have worked out that the fuse (#18 I think) is good, and so are the fuel and main relay. I also tried bridging (idk if that's an actual word) pins #30 and 85 or 86 (can't remember the actual numbers) in the fuel relay socket. After doing that, the fuel pump does work, but the car still doesn't fire up, so I'm guessing I have no spark either.
    I have a Delphi tool to read error codes but even though it gets power once I connect it to the car, for some reason it can't actually connect to the car.
    I already checked if the sedan had EWS but as far as I can tell, neither of the cars has any sort of immobiliser of any sort.
    I also tried hooking the old DME of my 320i to the car but alas, still nothing.
    Can anyone help me figure out what's wrong here? Because I'm completely stuck with the car at this point...
    20180728_144632.jpg

  2. #2
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    Be careful about backfires through the intake, they can crack the intake manifold.

    The engine block is aluminum?

    I would bench test the relay's especially the DME relay, remove them one at a time, energize the coil with 12v and while energized measure the resistance across the switch terminals, should be less than 2 ohms.

    Check the parts car under the relay/fuse box to see if any wires were cut.

    - - - Updated - - -

    The fuel pump on your car is not going to be able to handle the demands of the M52 so your going to want to upgrade that and the fuel pressure regulator that is under the driver seat with the fuel filter. Did you swap that over?
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  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric93se View Post
    Be careful about backfires through the intake, they can crack the intake manifold.

    The engine block is aluminum?

    I would bench test the relay's especially the DME relay, remove them one at a time, energize the coil with 12v and while energized measure the resistance across the switch terminals, should be less than 2 ohms.

    Check the parts car under the relay/fuse box to see if any wires were cut.

    - - - Updated - - -

    The fuel pump on your car is not going to be able to handle the demands of the M52 so your going to want to upgrade that and the fuel pressure regulator that is under the driver seat with the fuel filter. Did you swap that over?
    Oh, I haven't tested the relays like that yet no, I figured that if they "clicked" and the relay had some resistance over the other 2 (or 3 in case of the main relay) connectors while it was activated that they were fine .. I have tried using the 2 other ones from the parts car but they might have been dead as well, didn't test those.
    And no, the fuel pump was the same on both cars and the filter was the old type, next to the engine as opposed to underneath the car. Like I said, the engineblock is indeed aluminum but everything else is M50, I have no idea what they did to the engine.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric93se View Post
    Be careful about backfires through the intake, they can crack the intake manifold.

    The engine block is aluminum?
    IN Europe all M52 blocks are aluminium.

    In face the Vanos M50 and the M52 heads are same casting IIRC So I expect (without seeing pics) it's a normal 328 lump.
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  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by E36328Coupe View Post
    IN Europe all M52 blocks are aluminium.

    In face the Vanos M50 and the M52 heads are same casting IIRC So I expect (without seeing pics) it's a normal 328 lump.
    Yah the M52's are aluminum, the M50's are cast, however, the M50 heads have the oil cap at the back (which this one does as well) while the M52's have them at the front, and the DME's and all that stuff is different as well, which is not the case with mine.

  6. #6
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    Oil cap position is nothing to do with the head it's to do with cam cover and plastic trim, not surprising to swap that to M50 ones if wrong on paperwork and insurance
    Last edited by E36328Coupe; 07-28-2018 at 03:12 PM.
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  7. #7
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    Yeah, I know a lot of people test relay's and listen for the click, people assume they are good when the contacts internally have a fine layer of carbon that prevents current flow.
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  8. #8
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    I think this is more or less the situation here:
    With regards to your brother's project car (the 320i M50 turned 328i M52+M50 head), he (or previous owner) probably bought or got for free an aluminum (all European M52 are that) 328i with cracked head.
    He then installed an M50TU head, which he could probably buy for cheap, or he explicitly made the decision to buy one because he wanted to turn the M52 into OBD1, and use the M50 DME.
    Then, hopefully, he used the 2.8 injectors and installed a new M50 tune for the 2.8.. And hopefully he installed the M50B25 manifold instead of the M50B20 manifold.

    Advantage of using the early DME is that it probably has no EWS, simplifying the installation a bit. Disadvantage: less advanced, less diagnostics, more difficult to read out with INPA, not able to tune yourself with special software.

    I'm not sure if the M50TU MS40 is completely identical to the MS41 DME's (as used in the M52 engines) in this regard, but (at least with MS41) when you turn on the ignition, 12V goes to the DME. The DME then wakes up, and if everything is fine, it will send a ground signal to the DME relay. The DME relay then turns on and sends 12V to the injectors, coils, ICV, etc, AND to (another pin of) the DME, and then it will activate/wake up the main electronics of the DME. Then, if the DME receives a rpm-signal from the crank sensor, and it's sufficient rpm's, then it will send a ground signal to the fuel pump relay, and that will activate the fuel pump.

    So, if you don't hear the ICV buzzing about after turning on the ignition, then the DME relay isn't activated and nothing will work.
    If that's the case, then you'll have to check if the DME gets a good ground connection. Without that, it can't send a ground signal to the DME relay.
    Also check if the DME relay gets 12V at its relay coil pins and at pin 30.

    Then go from there, one step at a time.. Debugging, checking, rechecking...

    Good luck!

    Update: After reading E36328Coupe's remark, the situation could be a lot simpler. A plain M52B28 swap (head and all), but then using all the M50 electronics and wiring to let it work with the M50 MS40 DME.
    Last edited by ed323i; 07-28-2018 at 08:27 PM.


    1997 E36 BMW 323i
    (European) 275k km (171k miles), with following small mods:

  9. #9
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    As he's got the Siemens ECU the way to go now is diagnostics, pref INPA

    A 93 car would be EWS 1 which isn't a problem if the OP was running all his wiring and ECU but if there is an EWS I & II mix it could be a little complicated or need to align ISN?

    Diags would hopefully make it easier.
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by E36328Coupe View Post
    As he's got the Siemens ECU the way to go now is diagnostics, pref INPA

    A 93 car would be EWS 1 which isn't a problem if the OP was running all his wiring and ECU but if there is an EWS I & II mix it could be a little complicated or need to align ISN?

    Diags would hopefully make it easier.
    +1 Indeed, would be very helpful..

    But he'll first have to check if the DME receives power with ignition on. So, he has to check if the DME relay turns on with ignition on.. Otherwise INPA won't work I'm afraid.


    1997 E36 BMW 323i
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  11. #11
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    Or you hook up INPA and no connection is the first thing it tells you in the process of diagnosis. Therefore he doesn't have to check that first at all. PLus if he can connect to the ZKE then he has verified the OBD socket and data bus / INPA setup.
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by E36328Coupe View Post
    Or you hook up INPA and no connection is the first thing it tells you in the process of diagnosis. Therefore he doesn't have to check that first at all. PLus if he can connect to the ZKE then he has verified the OBD socket and data bus / INPA setup.
    Chances are it won't work because topic starter wrote:
    "I have a Delphi tool to read error codes but even though it gets power once I connect it to the car, for some reason it can't actually connect to the car."

    I'm not sure if the Delphi tool can work with the MS40 (OBD1) DME?

    But you're right to say to just give it a try.. Easiest way to find out if it works or not.


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  13. #13
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    Do you have power at the ECU? I ask because after doing a major project you could have shorted something and blown the fusible link in the trunk. The engine will crank all day but no power to the ECU (and also the fuel pump which is triggered by the ECU).

    You need a multimeter to get started.
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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by jc43089 View Post
    Do you have power at the ECU? I ask because after doing a major project you could have shorted something and blown the fusible link in the trunk. The engine will crank all day but no power to the ECU (and also the fuel pump which is triggered by the ECU).

    You need a multimeter to get started.
    Does the engine crank is that fuse is blown?

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by E36328Coupe View Post
    As he's got the Siemens ECU the way to go now is diagnostics, pref INPA

    A 93 car would be EWS 1 which isn't a problem if the OP was running all his wiring and ECU but if there is an EWS I & II mix it could be a little complicated or need to align ISN?

    Diags would hopefully make it easier.
    I think my DME is Bosch, not Siemens? Would have to check to make sure tho'.
    The car also doesn't have EWS as far as I know, I did some quick research on it but none of it was very clear. There's no sort of ring receiver of any wires near the ignition however, and my keys are the simple cut with a rubber handle ones. Same thing with the donor car.
    Last edited by HardTrackz; 07-31-2018 at 10:51 AM.

  16. #16
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    Yes, it will crank all day. Easiest place to check is to turn the key on and check for voltage BETWEEN the large and small terminals on the jump starting post area. They are isolated on the plastic bracket. The small wire comes from the fusible link. If you see anything other than very near 0 then the fuse is blown. From experience if the fusible link is blow you will see around 7 volts between the large and small wires. It should be 0V because they both come from the battery terminal if the fusible link is OK.

    Quote Originally Posted by HardTrackz View Post
    Does the engine crank is that fuse is blown?
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  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by HardTrackz View Post
    I think my DME is Bosch, not Siemens? Would have to check to make sure tho'.
    The car also doesn't have EWS as far as I know, I did some quick research on it but none of it was very clear. There's no sort of ring receiver of any wires near the ignition however, and my keys are the simple cut with a rubber handle ones. Same thing with the donor car.
    You said "both MS40.1" in first post. Otherwise I would have assumed a 93 car was Bosch Motronic
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  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by E36328Coupe View Post
    You said "both MS40.1" in first post. Otherwise I would have assumed a 93 car was Bosch Motronic
    Oh no, you're right, they're both Siemens, my bad

  19. #19
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    Little update guys, didn't have alot of time to work on the car with my bar and the hot af weather here the last couple of weeks, but I have checked some stuff on the car now;
    - fusible link should be okay, I get 0V between the 2 wires at the + junction
    - the DME gets proper ground at pin 28, dunno what else to check there?
    - the white and blue relays are good, tested those
    I'm pretty sure it's a wiring problem at this point but I have no idea what to check next? I don't think it's a problem with the DME because everything else inside the car works, and I have tried hooking up the old 320i DME as well, but still nothing.

  20. #20
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    When you turn on the ignition, do you hear/feel the ICV buzzing a little?
    If not, the DME relay is somehow not able to put 12V on the injection/ignition circuit (coils,injectors,ICV,and main part of DME electronics).


    Remove the DME relay and, with ignition on, see if you get 12V at two of the DME relay socket pins (12V at one pin with ignition off). Use a multimeter in the 20V DC setting. Connect one lead (the pin of it) of the multimeter to a good ground location; I always use one of the three bolts on the shock tower in the engine bay. Connect the other lead to one of the pins of the DME relay socket. With ignition on you should find +12V at 2 pins.. One would be pin 30 and the other I'd have to look up. As long as you find two pins with +12V, you're okay.

    Let us know what you find..

    Little update: Seems like there is always +12V on two pins of the DME relay.. So it's not even dependent on the ignition being on or off. See https://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/s...ematics-Needed .
    Last edited by ed323i; 08-13-2018 at 10:45 AM.


    1997 E36 BMW 323i
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  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by ed323i View Post
    When you turn on the ignition, do you hear/feel the ICV buzzing a little?
    If not, the DME relay is somehow not able to put 12V on the injection/ignition circuit (coils,injectors,ICV,and main part of DME electronics).


    Remove the DME relay and, with ignition on, see if you get 12V at two of the DME relay socket pins (12V at one pin with ignition off). Use a multimeter in the 20V DC setting. Connect one lead (the pin of it) of the multimeter to a good ground location; I always use one of the three bolts on the shock tower in the engine bay. Connect the other lead to one of the pins of the DME relay socket. With ignition on you should find +12V at 2 pins.. One would be pin 30 and the other I'd have to look up. As long as you find two pins with +12V, you're okay.

    Let us know what you find..

    Little update: Seems like there is always +12V on two pins of the DME relay.. So it's not even dependent on the ignition being on or off. See https://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/s...ematics-Needed .
    Yeah I have figured that out, and the 2 "87" pins should send some power to the DME. (48 and 54 on the image below)
    f72ac1es-960.jpg
    Now, those are both red/white wires, which I have tracked into the wiring harness, and they splice into multiple ehr.. (idk what to call them) branches? Will take and post a picture of that later. Anyways, from those 3 red/white "branches", 3 wires go to the right/DME side of the car. 2 go to the actual DME, which are the 2 "87" pins on the main relay, and one gets spliced and runs back towards the center of the car. This however isn't OEM, so I'm going to track that this evening and see where it goes. My guess would be the crankshaft sensor. But how does that work exactly? I know it measures the gap between the teeth of the flywheel, but how does it do that? Magnetism?
    Last edited by HardTrackz; 08-14-2018 at 11:32 AM.

  22. #22
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    I'm not really sure if you did find two pins with +12V in the DME relay socket? If not, then the problem is somewhere in between the +12V charge pole (passenger side, near firewall) and the fuse box.
    If you did find the +12V, then the (wiring?) problem is located deeper, at the DME or something related to that.

    P.S. Here is a quote on the M50 crankshaft position sensor: "Position sensor engine crankshaft (CKP sensor) – induction type, is a coil with a magnetic core, the winding resistance is 880-900 Ohms. For normal operation of the control system it is necessary that the clearance between the sensor and the teeth of the disk was 0.5 – 1.0 mm." From http://bmw-e36.com/repair/210-the-cr...ensor-m50.html .
    Last edited by ed323i; 08-14-2018 at 07:51 PM.


    1997 E36 BMW 323i
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  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by ed323i View Post
    I'm not really sure if you did find two pins with +12V in the DME relay socket? If not, then the problem is somewhere in between the +12V charge pole (passenger side, near firewall) and the fuse box.
    If you did find the +12V, then the (wiring?) problem is located deeper, at the DME or something related to that.

    P.S. Here is a quote on the M50 crankshaft position sensor: "Position sensor engine crankshaft (CKP sensor) – induction type, is a coil with a magnetic core, the winding resistance is 880-900 Ohms. For normal operation of the control system it is necessary that the clearance between the sensor and the teeth of the disk was 0.5 – 1.0 mm." From http://bmw-e36.com/repair/210-the-cr...ensor-m50.html .
    Yes yes, I have 12V at both red cables at the relay socket. The reason I ask about the crank sensor is because I read somewhere that the DME needs a signal from that as well in order to start. And I have also been made aware that the sensor should have a certain resistance value between 2 pins. Mine isn't even close to that, so it may be faulty. But what's weird is that the one on my old engine also didn't come close to said value, and both engine ran fine before, so that had me a little confused. I have however bought a new sensor, but since it's in such a awkard location, I haven't changed them yet. I just plugged the new one in, but the car still doesn't work, so now I was wondering if the sensor needs some sort of magnetic connection to even work at all

  24. #24
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    Okay, thanks for the feedback..

    You're correct.. If the DME gets all the power it needs, it will turn on the DME relay and all the electronics below the hood (injectors,coils,ICV,etc) will get power. Very important: the DME relay also sends +12V to the DME itself, and only then will the circuit activate that's needed to get the engine to run.
    Then, if it receives all the +12V it needs, when and only when it receives a correct signal from the crank sensor, and it can read a certain minimum RPM (+/- 150 rpm I think), then it will turn on the fuel pump relay.

    Can you double check and see whether the DME relay really gets activated (by touch, but also by measuring if there is +12V on some of the electronics connectors below the hood; coils, ICV, MAF, etc). You should hear some buzzing going on from the ICV.. Oh, you can also measure if a good ground signal arrives at the DME relay socket once you turn on ignition. Use a multimeter in the ohm setting and measure between a know-good ground point and the specific DME relay socket pin (I think you have the numbers in the attachment you included).

    If the DME relay isn't activated, the part of the DME that will listen for a correct signal from the crank sensor, won't be activated, and nothing will never happen..

    Update: by the way: the crank sensor doesn't receive +12V or +5V. It only outputs a signal. It has an internal magnet and an internal coil and will generate a voltage when the crank rotates. Three pins: shield, ground, and output signal. There is no input whatsoever for the crank sensor. If you have an oscilloscope you can connect it to the sensor and you'll immediately see if it's okay (while cranking)..
    Last edited by ed323i; 08-15-2018 at 01:16 PM.


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  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by ed323i View Post
    Okay, thanks for the feedback..

    You're correct.. If the DME gets all the power it needs, it will turn on the DME relay and all the electronics below the hood (injectors,coils,ICV,etc) will get power. Very important: the DME relay also sends +12V to the DME itself, and only then will the circuit activate that's needed to get the engine to run.
    Then, if it receives all the +12V it needs, when and only when it receives a correct signal from the crank sensor, and it can read a certain minimum RPM (+/- 150 rpm I think), then it will turn on the fuel pump relay.

    Can you double check and see whether the DME relay really gets activated (by touch, but also by measuring if there is +12V on some of the electronics connectors below the hood; coils, ICV, MAF, etc). You should hear some buzzing going on from the ICV.. Oh, you can also measure if a good ground signal arrives at the DME relay socket once you turn on ignition. Use a multimeter in the ohm setting and measure between a know-good ground point and the specific DME relay socket pin (I think you have the numbers in the attachment you included).

    If the DME relay isn't activated, the part of the DME that will listen for a correct signal from the crank sensor, won't be activated, and nothing will never happen..

    Update: by the way: the crank sensor doesn't receive +12V or +5V. It only outputs a signal. It has an internal magnet and an internal coil and will generate a voltage when the crank rotates. Three pins: shield, ground, and output signal. There is no input whatsoever for the crank sensor. If you have an oscilloscope you can connect it to the sensor and you'll immediately see if it's okay (while cranking)..
    Okay, I just checked, I don't get power at the ICV either.. so I don't get power there or at the main relay, which means what? The DME doesn't get the 12V it needs? It has good ground, I already checked that when you recommended it before.. I'm running out of options here lol

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