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Thread: Identifying 850CSi S70 engine

  1. #1
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    Identifying 850CSi S70 engine

    Hey fellas. Need expert CSi opinion. I'm looking at the potential basket case Euro CSi.

    VIN: CC00427

    Decoder says it's a 03/1993 CSi but I have my doubts that the engine might not be the S70.

    It's missing headlight washers (possibly someone deleted them?) and intake manifolds are in all silver and have cosmoline like on any M70 but the ///M cover is present. I looked at more than 10 Euro CSi's online and all of them have headlight washers and black details on the manifold.

    Are the black intake manifolds specific for the CSi? Is there a clear way to distinguish regular M70/M73 to S70 when looking at the engine bay?

    I just went through the service history of the car and found an interesting part number with a heavy price tag - 11001402348 - which is a replacement S70 engine so the engine is definitely not the one that was factory installed. Didn't find anything about the intake manifolds though. This was back in 1999.
    The car is a non-runner, the engine starts but doesn't move due to failed clutch or gearbox. It's also very high miles ~190k miles which is something I've never seen on a CSi. Sounds like a total basket case but could be worth saving.

    Appreciate any input!

  2. #2
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    850 CSI
    Milage.... not really an issue with these cars.
    Rest original ?

    Replacement engine ......hmm strange.
    Manifolds... yes always black details with a csi.

    cover, can be replaced fits on both m70 and s70.

    Does it have a working EML switch ?
    Look at the part numbers for EML end DME (sci specific).
    Part number for the MAF: CSI specific.
    These cannot be swapped.

    Engine number ...... !?
    BMW 850 CSI march 1994 (EU spec), SOLD. https://www.classiccars-forsale.com/...94-bmw-850csi/
    BMW 850 CSI november 1994 (EU spec)

  3. #3
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    The engine identification is stamped on the passenger side by the #1 sparkplug (you can’t miss it). If it has 5.6 on it it is a CSi engine.
    '93 850Ci - Mineralweiß Metallic

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  4. #4
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    I'd also be worried about the possible failed gearbox. As I understand it, parts are very difficult to come by. I know that's the case with the manual gearboxes on the regular e31's . . . I can't imagine it's any better with the CSi's. You have a plan for that?

  5. #5
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    Transmission parts are no longer available. Common failure is the 1-2 synchro.
    This is the main reason why I wouldn’t touch a six speed with s ten foot pole. The E31 has too many parts that are difficult to obtain, I don’t need to add a manual gearbox to that list.
    '93 850Ci - Mineralweiß Metallic

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  6. #6
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    Yeah, that 1-2 synchro is a bugger. Entire transmissions are still available, at least last time I checked and bought one. They don't come cheap, but what does on an E31? I believe the manual gearbox is identical, regardless of whether the car is an M70 or S70. (Doing it again, I'd look at the adapters for the 420 as well...)

    Cheers, John

  7. #7
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    Are the synchros really brass?
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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by clubE31 View Post
    Milage.... not really an issue with these cars.
    Rest original ?

    Replacement engine ......hmm strange.
    Manifolds... yes always black details with a csi.

    cover, can be replaced fits on both m70 and s70.

    Does it have a working EML switch ?
    Look at the part numbers for EML end DME (sci specific).
    Part number for the MAF: CSI specific.
    These cannot be swapped.

    Engine number ...... !?
    The car is very far away from me so the pictures are the only thing I can go by.

    Rest of the car is original and everything is there. I'm waiting on the pictures of the EML switch and odometer.

    I would look at all of that and most importantly engine serial number in person. The seller is sketchy at best and I'm trying to get as much information as possible before I decide to take that risk and fly out there.

    Quote Originally Posted by TxGR8White View Post
    The engine identification is stamped on the passenger side by the #1 sparkplug (you can’t miss it). If it has 5.6 on it it is a CSi engine.
    Thanks, that would be one of the first places to check. I found same info googling. I have 1991 850i with a 6 speed in my garage at the moment so I'll give it a try over the weekend.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sniff38 View Post
    I'd also be worried about the possible failed gearbox. As I understand it, parts are very difficult to come by. I know that's the case with the manual gearboxes on the regular e31's . . . I can't imagine it's any better with the CSi's. You have a plan for that?
    I don't know what exactly failed, clutch or gearbox but the seller told me it cannot be driven. There's a record of the clutch being replaced 70k miles ago at the BMW dealer but the car was parked for the last 2 years according to the seller. The car was beaten for sure but it was also maintained judging by the service logs he sent me. I'm translating service records at the moment by looking up part numbers.

    I live in Germany but I would imagine that the parts will be difficult to go come by. I'm just gathering info first and if I can get cheap enough, I would take the risk.

    Quote Originally Posted by TxGR8White View Post
    Transmission parts are no longer available. Common failure is the 1-2 synchro.
    This is the main reason why I wouldn’t touch a six speed with s ten foot pole. The E31 has too many parts that are difficult to obtain, I don’t need to add a manual gearbox to that list.
    Quote Originally Posted by dukegrad98 View Post
    Yeah, that 1-2 synchro is a bugger. Entire transmissions are still available, at least last time I checked and bought one. They don't come cheap, but what does on an E31? I believe the manual gearbox is identical, regardless of whether the car is an M70 or S70. (Doing it again, I'd look at the adapters for the 420 as well...)

    Cheers, John
    Didn't know that was a common failure. Thanks, guys, I'll have to do more research on that topic. I love a proper manual and my last 2 850i's are both 6 speed.

    Seller is claiming that he has a local mechanic who can get the car going for $3,500. I told him I doubt it but I might push him for that.
    Interior looks surprisingly fresh but outside - it'll need paint most likely. The car is a big pile of mess from the looks of it but I love a good adventure.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by sreten View Post
    The car is a big pile of mess from the looks of it but I love a good adventure.
    Famous last words . . . LOL.

    If you do this, we all expect thorough documentation on this forum.

  10. #10
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    Of course, if somehow this miraculous car ends up in my hands, it'll be documented.

    I don't know if the guy is messing with me or what. He doesn't have a service book or any invoices, he just sent a huge Excel spreadsheet with 1.500 rows in exchanged parts that he claims he got from the BMW dealer. Everything is sorted with dates, part numbers and kilometer readings.

    To say it's bizarre is an understatement. The car has covered 146.643 miles between 1993 and 2001.

    Following parts stick out:

    - Replacement engine in 1999

    - He apparently went through 6 Clutch kits and 3 Flywheels!

    - Repainted multiple times

    - Then he went through 2 Cross members, left & right door, left front fender, rear left glass, 8 bumpers with spoilers, 12 front fender liners, both headlights, 6 sets of spark plugs, gazillion brake pads, and I can go on with this weirdness...

    It just doesn't make sense and the best part about it is that he is maintaining the attitude that the car had no accidents - LOL. He's still due to send me records after 2001 but this is just ridiculous. I'll post pics of the car soon.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by sreten View Post
    ...a huge Excel spreadsheet...
    That's me.
    It's compact, can be copied, transported, and searched.
    Hardcopy is just the opposite, so I toss most everything.
    Any exceptions, I scan.
    I keep a text file of significant events like oil and tires versus dates and mileage.
    I don't have shop invoices because my fleet never sees any shop ever.
    ***
    If you get ambitious beyond the engine stamp, a talented mechanic can (probably) measure stroke (80mm vs 75) via a spark plug hole.

  12. #12
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    I too use a spreadsheet for documentation. It is very easy to look things up and keep a running document on maintenance that way. On the CSi I bought last year i spent several days documenting all the receipts on the car from when it was originally sold by BMW. So much easier to look item maintenance up that way instead oh thumbing through receipts.
    Last edited by rogbmw; 07-20-2018 at 12:45 PM.
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  13. #13
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    I'm another spreadsheet guy. I document everything from major repairs to routine maintenance all the way down to line-item fuel-ups. Sometimes I keep a really messy folder of receipts and invoices as well, and sometimes I just toss them after entering the relevant information. I suppose a potential future buyer could claim that I fabricated the whole spreadsheet, but if you look at my cars and still think that, you're not my buyer anyway.

    Don't discount the spreadsheet just because it's loaded with all kinds of stuff. That said, you're talking about an awful lot of clutches, spark plugs, and so on. Wow. Maybe the car was raced, and the seller doesn't count impacts with the wall or other racers as accidents? It's hard to imagine why you replace doors unless they have been hit... Racing could also account for a lot of bumpers.

    For giggles, I just checked the sheets on my two primary drivers, and I have over 600 fuel entries in the last seven years (since new), spanning more than 200,000 miles. On the other end of the spectrum, I have fueled my E31 only twice since I bought it, when I shook out some mechanical issues and then parked it in my barn. I swear, I need to get that project underway or just send it on down the line!

    Cheers, John

  14. #14
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    I use a neatly done Excel spreadsheet to keep track of my work as well and I keep all of the invoices in a big folder to serve as backup to the spreadsheet.

    I love when a grab a binder with service history and that just tell you someone took care of the car. I picked up a beautiful "barn" find '91 850i 6 speed, black on black few weeks ago in France.

    Came with a full binder of service records including original bill of sale from 1994 from the 2nd owner.



    Anyway, I pretty much totally cooled off this CSi. I had a quick call with Wokke (great guy) and he also thinks that the gearbox is the problem. When you account for that plus new paint, engine work, AHK, shipping cost and the fact it has 189k miles, it's just not worth for the price of $23.500 that he is asking. The seller is a difficult person and just wants to sell the car without any effort and when I told him that it'll probably need a new gearbox he sorta got mad and kept saying it's not true. I guess the dream of owning a CSi will have to wait for another day.

    The seller claims he has original rims but I never saw any proof of that.






































  15. #15
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    I wouldn't touch that for half the money, and I have been down some pretty dark holes with E31's...
    '93 850Ci - Mineralweiß Metallic

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  16. #16
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    I wish the interior on my basketcase looked that good, though!

    Cheers, John

  17. #17
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    I was going to say the same thing. That interior looks really nice . . . definitely not what I was expecting based on the condition of the exterior. Perhaps they racked up the majority of those 189K miles on long trips on the highway.

  18. #18
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    tricky.... without checking it in person, if real expect 10k+ to spend on it (easy). Not only gear box, but suspension and electronics are pretty expensive (and lots is CSI specific). Interior looks fine.....
    BMW 850 CSI march 1994 (EU spec), SOLD. https://www.classiccars-forsale.com/...94-bmw-850csi/
    BMW 850 CSI november 1994 (EU spec)

  19. #19
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    If I were you, I'd try to make some sort of a deal. Any CSi is worth saving and owning in some shape or form. It'll pay for itself down the line. Very few cars were made and getting more popular as we go. I once saw Wayne Carini find a skeleton (based on chassis number) of an old ferrari, and by skeleton, I mean truly just the frame and skeleton, bare bones in a dirt yard. He took it home and restored it, and it turned out to be one of very few cars existing in the world, worth millions... A CSi is surely not worth millions, but you I'm sure you get my point.
    Buy the car... The rest will be history.
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    1991 BMW 850i. Automatic. Red On Black and 1996 BMW 850Ci. Automatic. Midnight Blue on Gray.
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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by dukegrad98 View Post
    I wish the interior on my basketcase looked that good, though!

    Cheers, John
    Quote Originally Posted by Sniff38 View Post
    I was going to say the same thing. That interior looks really nice . . . definitely not what I was expecting based on the condition of the exterior. Perhaps they racked up the majority of those 189K miles on long trips on the highway.
    Quote Originally Posted by clubE31 View Post
    tricky.... without checking it in person, if real expect 10k+ to spend on it (easy). Not only gear box, but suspension and electronics are pretty expensive (and lots is CSI specific). Interior looks fine.....
    The inspection would reveal a lot but it would be a money pit for sure.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alec Cartio View Post
    If I were you, I'd try to make some sort of a deal. Any CSi is worth saving and owning in some shape or form. It'll pay for itself down the line. Very few cars were made and getting more popular as we go. I once saw Wayne Carini find a skeleton (based on chassis number) of an old ferrari, and by skeleton, I mean truly just the frame and skeleton, bare bones in a dirt yard. He took it home and restored it, and it turned out to be one of very few cars existing in the world, worth millions... A CSi is surely not worth millions, but you I'm sure you get my point.
    Buy the car... The rest will be history.
    Thanks, Alec. I totally get your point and this was the attitude I had for this CSi. It has a very unusual history and could look past it, but the biggest problem is the owner. First, the car was advertised on a German website by a Greek dealer as a mint condition car without a scratch with half of the miles with lots of new parts. When I called him he told me that they replaced the clutch, expansion tank, batteries and repainted some parts of the car. Then I talked to the owner who told me that nothing was done on the car, that it has 305.k km and he sent me some basic stuff about the car but when I asked for few more simple pictures he said he was too busy to make them.

    He made very little effort to sell this car and with every text he kept telling me that I should hurry and buy it because he has other people interested. When I told him that it will most likely need a new gearbox and clutch and that if I were to come, I would offer him much less. He kept saying that's not correct and that the previously mentioned dealer can fix it for a couple of thousand euros. Then I told him why not fix it and sell it for more at which point he got offended and we stopped communicating. He clearly just wants to make a quick sale without putting any effort into it and I don't like dealing with that sort of people.

    CSi is definitely on my wishlist but this example just isn't the one.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by sreten View Post
    The inspection would reveal a lot but it would be a money pit for sure.



    Thanks, Alec. I totally get your point and this was the attitude I had for this CSi. It has a very unusual history and could look past it, but the biggest problem is the owner. First, the car was advertised on a German website by a Greek dealer as a mint condition car without a scratch with half of the miles with lots of new parts. When I called him he told me that they replaced the clutch, expansion tank, batteries and repainted some parts of the car. Then I talked to the owner who told me that nothing was done on the car, that it has 305.k km and he sent me some basic stuff about the car but when I asked for few more simple pictures he said he was too busy to make them.

    He made very little effort to sell this car and with every text he kept telling me that I should hurry and buy it because he has other people interested. When I told him that it will most likely need a new gearbox and clutch and that if I were to come, I would offer him much less. He kept saying that's not correct and that the previously mentioned dealer can fix it for a couple of thousand euros. Then I told him why not fix it and sell it for more at which point he got offended and we stopped communicating. He clearly just wants to make a quick sale without putting any effort into it and I don't like dealing with that sort of people.

    CSi is definitely on my wishlist but this example just isn't the one.
    Sreten, there is still a CSi engine with 50k miles for sale in South Carolina I believe...

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