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Thread: Starting Out In Second Gear

  1. #1
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    Starting Out In Second Gear

    I just ran into an issue after coming to a very slow rolling stop to make a sharp left turn. For some reason, I had left it in second gear and tried executing the sharp turn while still in second gear. I guess I thought I had enough momentum behind me. Anyway, stepping on the accelerator the car only chugged (barely moved) and the revs didn't climb. Throwing it back into first gear, the same thing but it finally snapped out of it and I was able to accelerate away normally. This lasted only 10 to 15 seconds. I've never had this happen in any of the many standards that I've driven. Does anyone have any idea what happened?

  2. #2
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    You were lugging the engine. RPMs were too low for the speed you were going and/or amount of throttle you applied.

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    You could start from second say if going down hill, the key of course is not to lug the engine

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    Thanks guys. I'd never heard of the term lugging the engine before. I don't often lug the engine of any car but I had a driver behind me that didn't appear to be braking quick enough so I kind of nervously left it in second hoping to roll away a little quicker to avoid being rear-ended. Hopefully that's the last time that happens as it can't be too good for the car ..not to mention that the inability to quickly accelerate out of harms way could be disastrous.

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    I take the corner at the end of my street in second gear all the time after a rolling stop. Never had issues accelerating, not as fast as first but it still accelerates.

    Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

    Gave away my BMWs, driving a VW and an Audi now.

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    My turn was basically a u-turn while heading up a small incline.

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    I read two things, one you were in 2nd gear but going slow. Then you proceeded to make a U turn. Now the car thinks you lost traction in one rear wheel (do you have traction control) Then you accelerated ...well no, the traction control system says, "your car is some strange spin" and will now bog down the throttle until the rear wheels are back in line. 1st gear does not help because ASC is always checking when the rear wheel speed are the same. Now you know why you need to turn off traction control to do donuts.

    owner's manual actually states that you should DISABLE the ASC in the winter time. since it cuts power when the wheels break loose, and your trying to start out in snow, you'll never get moving. your car will want to constantly break free so the ASC will constantly be cutting in. There is a way to turn off the ASC
    Last edited by gc325is; 07-20-2018 at 12:15 PM. Reason: snow instuction

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    Quote Originally Posted by gc325is View Post
    I read two things, one you were in 2nd gear but going slow. Then you turned to make a U turn. Now the car thinks you lost traction in one rear wheel (do you have traction control) Then you accelerated ...well no the traction control says no, your car is some strange spin and will now bog down the throttle until the rear wheels are back in line. 1st gear does not help only when the rear wheel speed are the same. Now you know why you need to turn off traction control to do donuts.
    This is exactly what happened. Yes, the car has traction control and I'll be deleting it ASAP. Thanks for bringing that to my attention.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by gc325is View Post
    I read two things, one you were in 2nd gear but going slow. Then you turned to make a U turn. Now the car thinks you lost traction in one rear wheel (do you have traction control) Then you accelerated ...well no the traction control says no, your car is some strange spin and will now bog down the throttle until the rear wheels are back in line. 1st gear does not help only when the rear wheel speed are the same. Now you know why you need to turn off traction control to do donuts.
    If he was going that slow I doubt the tires would spin in second gear.

    Gave away my BMWs, driving a VW and an Audi now.

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    I didn't feel or hear the tires spin but it certainly felt like the traction control had kicked in. I've experienced engine lugging in the past and downshifting always seemed to remedy the problem. What happened yesterday was completely different.

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    In a U turn the tires are not spinning at the same rate. The right tire moves a lot and the left tire moves little. The car may think it has uncontrolled tire spin on the right. New cars may use sensors to determine the car is not out of control or allow more tire spin when at low speeds. The name is now Dynamic Stability Control and DTC or Dynamic Traction Control

  12. #12
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    thats not how it works. it only compares rear wheel rpm to front wheel rpm by using the ABS sensors. if theres a big difference it means your rear wheels are spinning. you're just a bad manual driver, that's all

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    Quote Originally Posted by samy01 View Post
    you're just a bad manual driver, that's all
    Thanks for not being a tool.

  14. #14
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    samy01 comment, thats not how it works. it only compares rear wheel rpm to front wheel rpm by using the ABS sensors.

    That comment is not true. Traction control takes the reading of all 4 wheels. The computer has an algorithm set to determine when to apply brake or power reduction based on speed differential, it could be front vs rear, rear left vs rear right etc. In the case of a U turn the most differential speed would be the right rear and left rear. In a forward acceleration motion from a stop , the front to rear may be more prevalent.


    This is what I read:

    BMW has traction control that BMW calls ASC+T. It's turned on and off by the switch labeled "ASC" on your dashboard. You'll notice that when you turn it off you'll see a yellow triangle and exclamation point symbol in a circle light up in a warning light on your dashboard. It's the same symbol you may occasionally notice is flashing is slippery conditions when the traction control is intervening to prevent wheelspin.
    ASC+T has two types of traction control strategies. At low speeds (under 25mph) it will use the rear brakes to slow down a wheel that's spinning. At higher speeds it will actuate a secondary throttle body in the intake tract to cut the power of the engine.
    It senses wheels spinning by comparing the relative rotational rates of the rear wheels in relation to each other, and in relation to the front wheels. Wheel speed is measured using the ABS sensors.
    For everyday driving there's no real reason to turn off traction control. Especially when conditions are slippery it's a very useful safety net. There are some exceptions though: If the car is stuck in snow, and you're trying to rock it free, disable the traction control, or the brakes will overheat from trying to prevent wheelspin. Also, if you need to run a different-sized tyre for some reason (such as a spacesaver "doughnut") then disable the traction control, because the system will be confused by the turning faster.
    Last edited by gc325is; 07-27-2018 at 04:43 PM.

  15. #15
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    I personally have never seen the ASC light turn on in whatever U-turn or sharp turn, at low speeds, a dry road, and without pressing down the gas pedal too much.
    I think you would have seen the ASC symbol in the instrument panel if the ASC was interfering the full 10 or 15 seconds.
    So, I tend to agree with samy01's opinion, though I would have stated it a bit more diplomatic ;-) ..

    Also note that there is quite a difference in torque down below between the M50B25 (no Vanos and M50 manifold reducing torque down below) and the M52B28 (with Vanos, M52 manifold and 300cc more).. But I think topic starter's 325i probably has Vanos, being a 1994 model. Still, the torque down below noticeably less than the M52B28 (M50 manifold and 300cc less).

    I also wouldn't exclude the possibility that the engine is running a bit too rich at idle, and that the spark plugs might have been in a bit of trouble (wet) those 10-15 seconds. Perhaps your O2 sensor isn't that great anymore? If it really was the ASC, then it would definitely be time to delete it.
    Last edited by ed323i; 07-27-2018 at 09:23 PM.


    1997 E36 BMW 323i
    (European) 275k km (171k miles), with following small mods:

  16. #16
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    The first stage of ASC+T applies brakes to the faster spinning wheel. The 2nd stage, where engine power is reduced also cause the light to illuminate.

    Quote

    The first stage can apply braking power in two levels. From 0 to 25MPH, a high level of braking force is pulsed to a wheel about to slip. >From 25MPH to 62MPH, a reduced level of braking force is used (this is both to reduce brake heating, as well as to smooth out operation). Above 62MPH the brakes aren't applied, and the first stage is inactive. Remember that the first stage of ASC + T intervention (pulsing a brake) actually helps the car get through a corner faster. It's the second stage (engine power reduction) that needs to be avoided. The best approach is to read a corner accurately so that you get into it just right. I'll be the first to admit that it's very difficult to do this with consistency.
    Another thing that I've found by experiment is that the sensitivity of the ASC + T system varies. The firmware appears to be adaptive, that is, it readjusts itself based on past experience. If I can take several corners in succession where just the first intervention stage occurs, each one can be taken harder. I've actually gotten it to the point where I can get some pretty major oversteer going, with the back end really coming around to help me walk it around tight corners. The great thing is that I'm getting a lot of extra traction from the first stage. It's like driving a limited slip with a very high degree of lock-up. The thing is, once I a have a corner where I've pushed it too hard so that the system kicks in, the threshold sensitivity goes way back up, so I have to have several more 'good' corners before the system readjusts itself to where I like it. In other words, if one corner doesn't go so good, the next ones have to suffer too. I sure wish there was a switch on the dashboard with one position for normal driving, and another position for a 'sport' mode with a higher engine cutback threshold.

    From http://www.318ti.org/notebook/asc/index.html

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by gc325is View Post
    samy01 comment, thats not how it works. it only compares rear wheel rpm to front wheel rpm by using the ABS sensors.

    That comment is not true.

    It senses wheels spinning by comparing the relative rotational rates of the rear wheels in relation to each other, and in relation to the front wheels. Wheel speed is measured using the ABS sensors.

    are you fucking with me. that's 98% what i just said. and just because some dude on the internet once wrote it works that way, doesn't mean it's true.

    driving a sharp bend never creates enough wheel rpm difference to ever activate asc. that was OP's question i think.

    yeah mine works different. when spinning in mud at 0 mp/h it brakes the spinning wheel and the light comes on and it takes away power with the asc throttle body if i give too much gas.
    Last edited by samy01; 07-28-2018 at 08:04 AM.

  18. #18
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    I should mention that my front tires began the u-turn while on a very sandy section of pavement. I didn't notice if the ASC light came on because I was too busy trying to get myself out of the way of oncoming traffic.

  19. #19
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    Here from the TIS: Automatic Stability Control with Traction Control System (ASC+T)
    When a vehicle is either accelerated or braked, a certain amount of wheel slip occurs. Wheel slip can be expressed as a percentage, representing the difference between road speed and the speed of a rotating wheel. For example, a vehicle cruising at a steady 50 MPH on a dry, level surface would have 0% wheel slip. A vehicle skidding on ice (road speed 50 MPH, wheel speed 0 MPH) would have 1 00% wheel slip. Lateral locating forces (and therefore vehicle stability) decreases rapidly as wheel slip increases.
    Because the ABS system limits wheel slip automatically during braking, vehicle stability is maintained, as lateral location forces remain high.
    The same principle is applied to wheel slip when accelerating (wheel spin) by the ASC system. By controlling throttle opening and ignition timing, ASC reduces torque to the driven wheel if excessive wheel slip occurs during acceleration. More effective transmission of power to the road surface is achieved, and lateral locating forces remain high (resulting in greater vehicle stability). Because an automatic control system can react more quickly and precisely than the vehicle's driver, active safety is improved with these systems. Automatic stability control with traction control (ASC+T) represents a further development of the ASC system. In addition to the throttle and timing controls of ASC, the ASC+T system adds the feature of braking control at the rear wheels, depending on degree of wheel slippage and road speed. In addition to the task of keeping wheel slippage (or spin) at acceptable levels, there is a equally important aspect of this function - by braking the spinning wheel and directing the torque to the wheel with better traction, the need for a limited-slip differential is eliminated.
    Note: As the amount of spin required for optimum propulsion in deep snow, for instance, is very high, the system can be switched off for this operating range. The same applies if the car needs to be rocked free by rapidly changing between forward and reverse.
    It should be remembered that even with ASC+T, the laws of physics cannot be defied. The consequences of insufficient traction and lateral locating forces (when these limits are exceeded) are factors for which only the driver is responsible. The driver is informed of the status of the ASC+T system by an indicator lamp in the instrument cluster.
    Whenever the ignition is switched ON, the ASC+T system is in operation. The indicator lamp goes off when the engine is started. As soon as the system is activated, for example, if the accelerator setting is excessive for the given road conditions, the ASC lamp in the instrument cluster flashes to alert the driver. If the ASC+T system fails or is switched off, the ASC lamp remain ON permanently.
    Advantages of the ASC+T System
    · Optimum traction at all speeds, as the system effectively transfers power from the driven wheels to the road surface, resulting in improved propulsion.
    · Increased stability by retaining lateral locating forces, both when travelling straight ahead and cornering.
    · Reduction of burden on the driver, by automatically intervening and controlling appropriate systems, and by informing the driver that the vehicle is approaching the limits of stability.
    All three of these advantages contribute to active safety.
    Function
    ASC+T controls wheel slip under acceleration (wheel spin) through four regulating functions:
    Throttle valve regulation
    · Ignition timing regulation
    · Rear brake regulation
    · EGS shift characteristic regulation
    With the ASC+T, the braking effects provides a quicker, smoother reduction of driving torque than the engine regulating effect of the ASC system. The braking function is used for rapid control functions instead of the ignition/injection "fade out".
    ASC+T Operation
    The ASC+T system is integrated with the ABS system. The two systems share the same control unit, and receive wheel speed information from the same wheel sensors. However, the two systems operate independently from each other, and each is capable of functioning in the event of the other's failure, provided no shared electrical component is involved. (Refer to the "Safety Logic" portion of this bulletin, and to the appropriate Diagnostic Manual and ETM). In order to obtain a highly effective and sensitive control system, it was necessary to coordinate the ASC+T system with the EML, DME, and EGS systems.
    ASC+T monitors wheel speed via the wheel sensors shared with the ABS system. When wheel spin is detected, the control circuits can intervene. If at least one wheel exhibits a speed difference of 1.8 MPH, the ASC+T system is activated (intervenes).
    NOTE: For this reason, the condition of all four tires must always be uniform. Tire pressures must be as specified. Deviating pressures and tire diameters may activate the system unnecessarily. The system must be switched OFF if snow chains are fitted to the driven wheels, as the amount of spin required to obtain driving traction will exceed the ASC+T spin threshold. The same procedure must be followed if the vehicle is crossing a surface of loose gravel, dissimilar substances, etc.
    The ASC+T control unit receives throttle valve position information via an interface with the EML control unit. Communication between the EML control unit and the ASC+T control unit is in the form of pulse width modulated signals. The opening angle of the throttle valve can be modified by the EML control unit upon request from the ASC+T control unit. The ASC+T ignition adjustment function is carried out by the DME control unit, in response to digital signals issued by the ASC+T control unit. The DME control
    unit contains operation-related maps from which it selects precise data on ignition adjustment in response to these signals. The EGS control unit modifies gear shift points in response to a signal from the ASC+T control unit. Select Low/Select High Traction Control
    All control circuits of the ASC+T system operate according to the select low or select high principle, i.e., the degree of intervention depends on critical deviation in the event of wheel spin The select low principle is applied if differences are detected between the left and right sides, or if both driven wheels exhibit spin and the vehicle speed is above 25 mph. In such cases, both rear wheels are braked together (only briefly) to allow the spinning wheels to regain traction. Select low regulation is achieved in the following sequence:
    1. Throttle valve opening angle regulation
    2. Ignition timing regulation
    3. Rear brake control
    The select high principle is applied at road speeds below 25 mph, and if differences in spin are detected between the driven wheels. It provides individual brake application to either driven wheel, thus slowing the spinning wheel and transferring the torque to the wheel with greater traction. The select high function also raises the reference value range for wheel spin. Select High Regulation is activated in the following sequence:
    1. Rear brake control
    2. Throttle valve opening angle regulation
    3. Ignition timing regulation
    Speed is calculated for each wheel and an average per axle is calculated. The speed of the nondriven front wheels serves as a reference speed. The critical reference value for control purposes is defined according to vehicle speed and vehicle acceleration.
    EML Throttle Valve Control
    When frictional surface conditions are poor, the ASC+T system can minimize wheel spin by signalling the EML control unit to reduce the throttle opening. When throttle valve control is activated, the throttle opening angle is reduced from the current setting to a calculated position. If wheel spin is still excessive, the opening angle is reduced in steps until a minimum spin value, dependent on road speed, is attained. As wheel spin is reduced to an acceptable level, the throttle opening angle is gradually adjusted to the value specified by the driver. The ASC+T system rapidly calculates a sequence of reducing or increasing throttle opening angles as the wheel spin values vary. Because of the slight dynamic delay effect of throttle valve control on drive torque, a combination
    with more rapid control circuits, ignition timing and braking function, was also adopted.
    Ignition Function
    By retarding the ignition timing, combustion peak pressure is modified and engine torque therefore reduced. Ignition timing is adjusted from the current value on the engine map in a ramp pattern related to engine speed. Depending on the engine's operating mode, this intervention by ASC+T can reduce engine torque by up to 50%.
    Braking Function
    In some driving conditions, such as abrupt full throttle application or a sudden change in the road surface's coefficient of friction, throttle valve control responds too sluggishly. As an additional, more rapid method of reducing wheel spin, the driven wheels are therefore braked via the wheel brake with the aid of the ASC+T function.
    EGS Shift Characteristics Control
    A signal path is maintained between the ASC+T and EGS control units. During ASC+T regulation, the signal from EGS is grounded. When this occurs, the gear change characteristics (in E and S modes) are modified to assist the ASC+T system in restoring suitable drive wheel traction (i.e., the EGS system shifts down later or shifts up earlier).
    ASC+T Hydraulic Unit Operation
    ASC+T is incorporated into the standard dual-diagonal circuit configuration of the familiar H31 power assist system. The ABS system operates in standard fashion, but the rear wheel circuits now incorporate the ASC+T hydraulic unit.
    There are two separate fluid circuits in the ASC+T system: Brake fluid and hydraulic control.
    Brake Fluid Circuits
    The ASC+T hydraulic unit is installed between the ABS hydraulic unit and the rear wheel calipers. Without ASC+T intervention, normal service braking takes place. During ASC+T intervention, brake pressures at the rear wheel calipers can be applied, maintained or released.
    The interface with EML was specially designed using digital pulse width modulated signal transmission (at 100 Hz frequency) for safety reasons. The ASC+T control unit continuously transmits the throttle valve control signal to the EML control unit, and checks whether any throttle valve opening adjustment signal is permitted by safety thresholds defined by its programming. For purposes of fault diagnosis, the fault memory can be read in the form of a flash code. Refer to the appropriate repair manual or electrical trouble-shooting manual for further details.
    Care and Maintenance
    ASC+T constitutes a highly effective safety system and as such needs very clean conditions and careful treatment during all repair and maintenance work. For this reason, all relevant instructions and notes should be observed for repairs and spare parts. No repairs or adjustments may be made to the hydraulic assembly. The protective caps on the connections must remain fitted until shortly before installation, to avoid contamination. The connections are of varying sizes to prevent improper connections. It is essential to observe storage instructions. Hydraulic assemblies which have been held in storage for more than five years must not be installed, and must be returned to the manufacturer. The system may only be filled with the approved oil grade for the appropriate circuit.
    · Brake circuit: DOT 4 brake fluid
    · Hydraulic control circuit: Pentosin CHF 7.1 mineral oil (viscosity range -40°C to + 100°C).
    Any work, in particular filling and bleeding operations, must be performed in accordance with the repair manual. In the mineral oil control circuit, there is one filter integrated into the fluid reservoir (screen), and one in the line to the hydraulic unit (fine mesh). The filter element to the hydraulic unit must be changed at every inspection 11.
    For reasons of safety, the pressure (150 bar) in the accumulator must be bled off before any lines are opened. This is accomplished by a bleeder valve (see repair manual). For safety and technical reasons, the system cannot be retrofitted. The consequences of failure to comply with these instructions are the responsibility of the person concerned.
    SBT 34 01 90 (2105) October 1990, E32 750iL (to be phased into E31 850i) http://www.steerbythrottle.com/hccyong/forum/ASC+T.pdf
    --------------------------------

    That was the beginning, all systems function based on this design, no matter if they have EML or not.
    Shogun tricks and tips for the E32 series are HERE!

  20. #20
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    ^^^^ Thank you shogun for ending this spitballing match.

    OP I hope you gained some insight as to what might have happened. Now stop doing u-turns and go do some donuts!
    Last edited by Thrifty S50; 07-29-2018 at 12:06 PM.

  21. #21
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    If you snap the throttle open at low RPM the air speeds in the port drops through the floor, also drops torque and makes it harder for the engine to spin up. If you nearly stalled it in second before selecting first it only makes it worse.
    No warranty of any kind implied or given and no liability for any loss, damage or injury, no matter how incurred accepted.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrifty S50 View Post
    ^^^^ Thank you shogun for ending this spitballing match.

    OP I hope you gained some insight as to what might have happened. Now stop doing u-turns and go do some donuts!
    I'll get right on that!

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by E36328Coupe View Post
    If you snap the throttle open at low RPM the air speeds in the port drops through the floor, also drops torque and makes it harder for the engine to spin up. If you nearly stalled it in second before selecting first it only makes it worse.
    +1

    A little bit more details. It's a bit technical, but this is how it works: If the throttle butterfly is closed or almost closed, the engine is breathing through a "straw", and the little air that goes through the straw gets sucked into the cylinders (by the pistons creating a vacuum because they're moving down with inlet valve open, exhaust valve closed), travels at a high velocity. There is a high vacuum in the intake manifold.

    Now, when you floor it, the throttle butterfly opens completely, and the straw turns into a big tube, even though, at low rpm the engine can't suck that much air. So the air velocity drops to a very low speed, and this will cost you torque. No vacuum whatsoever in the intake manifold. One advantage of an electronic throttle (drive by wire) is that the DME takes this into account, and, even when you floor it, it will open the throttle body just as fast (slow) as the engine can cope with the air, and thus increasing effective torque. I hope I explained it well enough.

    Perhaps interesting to see if you can recreate the same conditions, first forgetting about the U-turn.. So, slowing down in 2nd gear (probably with no injection going on, econometer at 0 l/km or unlimited mpg), and at some point, when you think the speed is identical to when it happened, floor it (if that's what you did, or apply the same amount of gas as you did before). And see what happens. If it picks up perfectly fine each time, then proceed and redo the tests, but now incorporate the U-turn on a sandy patch of road.. Of course do these tests in a safe location, with no other traffic.
    Last edited by ed323i; 07-29-2018 at 02:34 PM.


    1997 E36 BMW 323i
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  24. #24
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    ^ Now you know why SU carbs are so great and all the fixed choke carbs try to cover up the flat spot with an accelerator pump.
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