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Thread: Best Engine Combination for Boost

  1. #26
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    I'd keep it simple. Swap in an M50TU or M52 and matching ECU and do an off the shelf OBD1 turbo tune. I'd buy as much displacement as you can afford. The M52 is the bargain motor so if money is a concern, its the one to buy. Get the ZF320 trans with it and the ECU and engine harness.

  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by pbonsalb View Post
    I'd keep it simple. Swap in an M50TU or M52 and matching ECU and do an off the shelf OBD1 turbo tune. I'd buy as much displacement as you can afford. The M52 is the bargain motor so if money is a concern, its the one to buy. Get the ZF320 trans with it and the ECU and engine harness.
    I feel like that would probably be the easiest, but a decent chunk of money upfront, but to turbo any car...you have to spend money

    just wondering since you've messed with these cars allot. can you run the s/m50 s/m52 obd1 without a maf when going turbo or do all the tuners use a maf?

  3. #28
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    All use a MAF. DIYers have gotten everything for $4k with careful shopping and some used parts. That includes the clutch. The tune and fuel injection parts are $1000-$1500 of that.

  4. #29
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    I was thinking so. I have seen several good builds that were done on a very reasonable budget. All things to consider.

    Cost to play as they say

  5. #30
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    Usually when you buy a stock ECU tuning package the injectors and MAF come with it, which offsets the cost quite a bit. This makes it cheaper than a megasquirt or vems plug and play.


    86 325es, 2.8L m50, S476sxe, ProEFI 128 ecu, e85, solid rear axle, TH400 trans, 28x10.5w slicks, zip ties, popsicle sticks, tape
    best time 9.06 @ 151.8 mph, best 60 foot 1.30

  6. #31
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    I just looked up 3 vendors packages and it looks like $1300 is about the going rate. not too bad considering the Vems is $1400 and then you have to build the tune (from what i can tell)

    Is switching to vanos as easy as cams, vanos itself, the sprockets and all that to make it work, vanos wiring harness and ecu? I've heard some people have to trim the front of the head a little and then some say it just bolts up

  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kingtal0n View Post
    Everytime I've tuned a megasquirt I regretted it

    constant supply of problems from them. Not saying they don't work, just that in the hands of mortal men the MS ecu has too many ways you can screw up without realizing it.

    For example gold-box plug and play, my friend installed one and when he hits the switch for his gauges all the tps/map sensor voltages of the MS ecu start jumping around like crazy.
    Impossible to tune now and needs ten hours of re-wiring and diagnosis for months now to trace this problem with MS's "best pnp box". Now it won't even connect to the laptop anymore. the ECU might be corrupted.
    links: http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewto...?f=122&t=69207
    : http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewto...?f=131&t=69215

    Sure if I had installed it, it probably would have been fine because I am aware of cross talk and EMI interference. But regular people? Just tend to put wires wherever and this is what you get.

    Next a friend installed MS ecu on 2JZ and could never get a crank signal. Spent months coming back to the car and never got it to work properly. turning internal resistor pots etc... Had to open the ECU several times and finally gave up on that one because the wiring was just not good enough. Once again wiring issues (Not the MS fault, just mortal man) the wiring output on MS2 style was very archaic and easy to screw up.
    link: http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewto...?f=131&t=68080

    Next MS ecu on a VW Jetta, I think 2.5L, I spent a loooong time generating a pinout and turning resistor pots and doing firmware. Finally got it fired up and running, timed it, but it still ran weird as hell and didn't sound strong. I could tell the ECU needed "fine tuning" of its sensitivity to the cam/crank triggers because it would hit and miss and drop signal at certain times, it had specific rpms of "interference" where the software tried to bandaid with "noise suppression algorithms" that never worked right. The combo of the engine may have also kinda sucked and all together the owner gave up on it after driving and tuning for a couple hours. moved on to a different platform...
    link: http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewto...?f=101&t=63168

    Never had this kind of shit with other stand-alones. never spend 30-50 hours wiring, diagnosing, taking ECU covers off, updating firmware, making posts on the MS forums asking for help... and getting no where.
    The MS people and owner/mods are very very helpful. This isn't an "MS SUCKS" post, its just my perspective as a potential tuner for other people's vehicles that have decided to use MS ECU and its been far more difficult and troublesome and getting-nowhere-fast than any other computer I've ever seen.

    in comparison:
    This last Sat. I tuned a PnP Haltech ECU for 2.0L Nissan. From 1pm to 8pm I took the owner through every single setting and not only taught him how to use it (to some minor ability) I saw the car, compression test, pressure test, timing test, and completely tuned it from top to bottom in that one single day without any issues. And that was only my 2nd PnP Haltech this year (I don't see many of those on 2.0L engines)

    As an owner/tuner I think the MS ecu is GREAT. Extremely customization is my middle name and I could have one whipped into shape within a short time in my own car, I am sure of that. The mistakes that keep happening are unrelated to the ECU/design per its FUNCTIONS (it functions exactly as it should), instead they mistakes are much more related to it's installation, error handling, software programming, sensitivity scale, and above all else requires that the owner be aware of every little functional detail in order to use it successfully (which is fine if its YOUR CAR). To put this another way, I think its great if you plan to tune the car yourself, handle everything yourself, because you WILL LEARN how to deal with these issues and how complex an ECU really is. It just isn't great when you approach a random car with a bunch of small wiring and installation mistakes, with everything the owner already "buttoned up" so you can't even inspect the wiring, and asks you to tune something that won't give a clean TPS or Crank signal. They don't want to hear "we need to take everything back out and re-do it" or the price attached to that service. IMO Deal with the MS ecu yourself and only yourself and put 100% effort into it and it will be fine. There is no other way though, don't expect somebody to come magic away the problems with a laptop.
    This is a little dated. The old megasquirt 1, 2, and 3 with the chincy unsealed cases are a completely different hardware platform than the MS3 pro and the pnp ecu that AMP EFI now offers. The MS3 pro shares the firmware and tuning software with the old megasquirt but the hardware is now modernized. I had great success with the old megasquirts but they were not user friendly to setup. As you said people often did not wire them properly with good grounds. The software settings are also confusing to beginners but they have made significant improvements on that. But in any case don't judge the MS3pro based on experience with the DIY boxes.

    Vems is also a megasquirt based product. Back when megasquirt's firmware was open source Vems built their ECU off of megasquirt's code but with much improved hardware. Megasquirt has marched on with alot of new software features since then but most people don't make use of megasquirts more advanced features.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by lbennyboobool View Post
    I just looked up 3 vendors packages and it looks like $1300 is about the going rate. not too bad considering the Vems is $1400 and then you have to build the tune (from what i can tell)

    Is switching to vanos as easy as cams, vanos itself, the sprockets and all that to make it work, vanos wiring harness and ecu? I've heard some people have to trim the front of the head a little and then some say it just bolts up
    You have to grind some material off the front of the head for the vanos unit to fit on. About 20 minutes with a carbide in a die grinder. Cover the head in a towel to catch the chips.


    86 325es, 2.8L m50, S476sxe, ProEFI 128 ecu, e85, solid rear axle, TH400 trans, 28x10.5w slicks, zip ties, popsicle sticks, tape
    best time 9.06 @ 151.8 mph, best 60 foot 1.30

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by someguy2800 View Post

    You have to grind some material off the front of the head for the vanos unit to fit on. About 20 minutes with a carbide in a die grinder. Cover the head in a towel to catch the chips.
    on the intake side i'm guessing? just clearancing (i feel like i smelled that wrong) to have the vanos sit properly?

  9. #34
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    Yeah, on the intake side. I don't think I have a picture of it but basically you have to enlarge the opening at the front slightly in one spot. Its easy to see when you try to put one on.


    86 325es, 2.8L m50, S476sxe, ProEFI 128 ecu, e85, solid rear axle, TH400 trans, 28x10.5w slicks, zip ties, popsicle sticks, tape
    best time 9.06 @ 151.8 mph, best 60 foot 1.30

  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by someguy2800 View Post
    Yeah, on the intake side. I don't think I have a picture of it but basically you have to enlarge the opening at the front slightly in one spot. Its easy to see when you try to put one on.
    makes sense! so i don't think i have ever read your build thread. I'm not sure why! is your engine still a non vanos as stated in your signature?

  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by someguy2800 View Post
    Vems is also a megasquirt based product. Back when megasquirt's firmware was open source Vems built their ECU off of megasquirt's code but with much improved hardware. Megasquirt has marched on with alot of new software features since then but most people don't make use of megasquirts more advanced features.
    Kind of true... but not true for a really long time anymore. When VEMS started it was a branch off of the open source core MS project ported to an Atmel CPU (called the msavr project).

    Even back then it was hard to say VEMS was a MS based product, it certainly isn't correct to say that it is an MS based product now.

  12. #37
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    As of right now it still is. My build thread is pretty outdated. I havn't updated it in a year and a half, but I have been working on the car pretty intensely. It currently has an S472sxe and a TH400 transmission. I have an MS3pro Ultimate in the car now, meth injection, nitrous, and I'll be putting in a set of shrick 286/286 cams in. I will be doing some testing with and without vanos to see how it spools. If it spools okay without vanos I will leave it off as my preference for a race motor is no vanos.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by NOTORIOUS VR View Post
    Kind of true... but not true for a really long time anymore. When VEMS started it was a branch off of the open source core MS project ported to an Atmel CPU (called the msavr project).

    Even back then it was hard to say VEMS was a MS based product, it certainly isn't correct to say that it is an MS based product now.
    I don't know how much of the code is still the same, but back in the day it was pretty much identical.


    86 325es, 2.8L m50, S476sxe, ProEFI 128 ecu, e85, solid rear axle, TH400 trans, 28x10.5w slicks, zip ties, popsicle sticks, tape
    best time 9.06 @ 151.8 mph, best 60 foot 1.30

  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by someguy2800 View Post
    I don't know how much of the code is still the same, but back in the day it was pretty much identical.
    Yes when the MSAVR project started it was a port, but with added capabilities (seq. inj/igntiion, onboard wideband, EGT, stepper/idle, etc, etc).

    When VEMS went to their "genboard" V3 system it really didn't have much left in common with MS except the communications protocol was kept to continue to use the opensource tuning software called MegaTune at the time (so they could concentrate on ECU development) and customized it. They did a total re-write of the FW as of VEMS V3.2 and the source was then closed.

    After that they even ditched that and created their own comm. protocol (called triggerframe) with error checking/correction, etc. and developed VemsTune software.
    Last edited by NOTORIOUS VR; 07-18-2018 at 03:19 PM.

  14. #39
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    slightly a change in subject....how big of an injector would be needed to run e85 for 500whp max but probably around 400-450whp? i think 60lb are good for 91 but i haven't read many people using e85 on the lower horsepower setups

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by someguy2800 View Post
    As of right now it still is. My build thread is pretty outdated. I havn't updated it in a year and a half, but I have been working on the car pretty intensely. It currently has an S472sxe and a TH400 transmission. I have an MS3pro Ultimate in the car now, meth injection, nitrous, and I'll be putting in a set of shrick 286/286 cams in. I will be doing some testing with and without vanos to see how it spools. If it spools okay without vanos I will leave it off as my preference for a race motor is no vanos.
    Do you know how much power you're currently making?

  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by lbennyboobool View Post
    slightly a change in subject....how big of an injector would be needed to run e85 for 500whp max but probably around 400-450whp? i think 60lb are good for 91 but i haven't read many people using e85 on the lower horsepower setups
    60 lbs would be maxed out. 80 lb would be enough.

    Quote Originally Posted by lbennyboobool View Post

    Do you know how much power you're currently making?
    Its not running yet. The old setup based on trap speed was right around 800 whp at 28 lbs. I never got to trap it at higher boost but an educated guess would be about 850 whp at 32 lbs. I'm hoping the new setup will make about 1100-1200 at the motor, no idea what that will be at the wheels going through the auto. I would like it to trap about 165 mph


    86 325es, 2.8L m50, S476sxe, ProEFI 128 ecu, e85, solid rear axle, TH400 trans, 28x10.5w slicks, zip ties, popsicle sticks, tape
    best time 9.06 @ 151.8 mph, best 60 foot 1.30

  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by someguy2800 View Post

    Its not running yet. The old setup based on trap speed was right around 800 whp at 28 lbs. I never got to trap it at higher boost but an educated guess would be about 850 whp at 32 lbs. I'm hoping the new setup will make about 1100-1200 at the motor, no idea what that will be at the wheels going through the auto. I would like it to trap about 165 mph
    That's impressive!! Good work

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by someguy2800 View Post
    60 lbs would be maxed out. 80 lb would be enough.
    cool, that wouldn't be too expensive

  17. #42
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    Lol SG2800 saying his setup is outdated! Humble you are, that momster has a 400frame turbo, you practically suck in all the h8ers at the track I bet lol.

  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mklock View Post
    Lol SG2800 saying his setup is outdated! Humble you are, that momster has a 400frame turbo, you practically suck in all the h8ers at the track I bet lol.
    I meant my thread is outdated. I stepped away from the car for a year to make time for other hobbies and my family but I've been working on it again for a few months but havn't put in the effort to document and update my thread. I'm not going to lie, the S400 looks awesome in there



    86 325es, 2.8L m50, S476sxe, ProEFI 128 ecu, e85, solid rear axle, TH400 trans, 28x10.5w slicks, zip ties, popsicle sticks, tape
    best time 9.06 @ 151.8 mph, best 60 foot 1.30

  19. #44
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    I wish all their turbos had a V-band like that. I can't see any down side and it has to be the epitome of speedy race car service access.

  20. #45
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    Its really nice. To take this off the manifold you have to take the compressor housing off to access the front two bolts on the turbine housing so the V band on the compressor housing is a must. You would never get it off otherwise.


    86 325es, 2.8L m50, S476sxe, ProEFI 128 ecu, e85, solid rear axle, TH400 trans, 28x10.5w slicks, zip ties, popsicle sticks, tape
    best time 9.06 @ 151.8 mph, best 60 foot 1.30

  21. #46
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    It's a beauty that's for sure!!

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