Results 1 to 25 of 25

Thread: M60 and Getrag 420g Clutch and Flywheel

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    1,133
    My Cars
    e34 540ia/e32 740il

    M60 and Getrag 420g Clutch and Flywheel

    This was actually PM to Moroza asking him about clutch and flywheel options for the M60. He suggested I post this as a thread since the info is probably relevant to many on this board:


    I'm looking into clutch and flywheel combinations for the manual swap in my e32 740, and from digging through threads I saw that you might be the person to ask about the m60 flywheel/clutch options.

    I don't want to use the m60 stock dual mass flywheel, and I've mostly ruled out the m62/s62 240mm clutch and flywheel options because they seem too weak without getting a way too grabby clutch for street driving. I also occasionally tow an enclosed trailer and small boats with my e32 so I think I need at least the 265mm clutch size that is stock to the m60 to handle the extra weight of the e32 and load of occasionally towing things.

    I'd like to use a single mass flywheel but I think the 265mm lightweight flywheel options for the m60 (JB racing) are way too light. I don't want any gearbox chatter.

    I think this really limits me on options. Correct me if I'm wrong but if I go with single mass, then I would think I need a sprung clutch disk to maintain smoothness? I haven't found any 265mm m60 clutches with built in springs since the e34 540 that used the 265mm stuff had a dual-mass flywheel. Have you come across any?

    Here are the options I've found:

    - TTV 265mm single mass light weight flywheel. It's 18 pounds so it may not rattle. But if there are no sprung 265mm clutch options this won't work for what I want.

    - M70 v12 flywheel and clutch (280mm). I keep finding posts that claim the m70 280mm flywheel doesn't bolt up to the m60, but from research I've done I can't see why this won't work. The stock m70 280mm flywheel is single mass and weighs much less than that heavy 265mm dual mass. And the stock clutch is a sprung disk! The flywheel is only $490 from the dealer, but it looks like the clutch and pressure plate is hard to find. Also I wonder if the clutch feel would be off if I don't use the correct master or slave cylinders. I saw in one thread I found that you were digging into trying to use the v12 clutch and flywheel. Did you ever figure out a solution?

    Any options I'm missing? Are there any 265mm single mass flywheels for the m60 that aren't so light that they cause chatter? Are there even any 265mm clutches that are sprung? Or any 240mm single mass options that maintain drive-ability, can handle high load, and have no chatter?


    His response:

    Quote Originally Posted by moroza
    The only setup for guaranteed zero gear rattle is the original heavy OE dual-mass flywheel.

    Yes, you must have either the flywheel or the clutch disk sprung. Otherwise it'll be hard on the driveline, harder to drive smoothly, and guaranteed to rattle at any reasonable flywheel weight.

    If memory serves, SPEC makes a 265mm sprung clutch to fit the M6x. I haven't looked into the matter since 2009, but back then I was unable to find any other 265mm clutch options.

    Read through this thread regarding the M70 setup and interpret it how you will. My interpretation is snooty E31 owners fabricating parts in their garden shed and holding that up as evidence of different boltpatterns, versus an E34 owner saying he bolted an M60 flywheel to an M70 crank - the reverse of what you're after - and it fit just fine. I know the E34 owner well enough to take that piece of data at face value, but I also have enough experience with playing BMW-Legos to say there is still a ~2% chance that the compatibility is not reciprocal.

    Also, that setup is (presumably) rattle-free for a V12, not a V8 that's less inherently smooth. Yes, we're comparing butter to teflon-infused Astroglide churned to a froth inside Rick Santorum... but still, no guarantee that it won't rattle on an M60. FWIW, I believe the stock M70 flywheel is 25lb, my 15lb UUC rattled a little, and I recall weighing an M62 piece at 44lb.

    I have a note from a few years ago that I spoke with Rob Levinson (well-known BMW tuner, runs UUC, hates SPEC), who said the M70 stock flywheel fits the M60. I would call him to verify that. He would probably give you further advice on a clutch setup and where to source parts.

    There's also a note I made that one of two available M70 automatic flywheels are the same part as an M6x. Parts catalogs are not totally infallible, however.

    I had the stock E31 clutch (with aftermarket UUC 280mm conversion flywheel) on my M62. It worked very well, but the clutch is expensive. Your only option is OE Sachs and it cost me ~$650 back in '09. A cursory glance suggests that 21211223413 (the kit including pilot bearing, throwout bearing, friction disk, and pressure plate) is going to be hard to track down these days; my usual sources don't have it on hand so I'd be prepared to make a lot of phonecalls. The good news is that it should last a long time. This setup requires shortening the clutch slave cylinder pin by 4mm; very easy with an angle grinder. The setup was OE-level smooth and linear, far more responsive, and silent apart from occasional, minor, and (to my fussy ass) acceptable gear rattle.

    Again, if you insist on no gear rattle, I steer you towards the OE setup. Second-best (and what I would have done in '09 had I not found a screaming deal on a used UUC flywheel at a very opportune moment): find a sympathetic BMW dealership parts manager who'll supply you with an E31 clutch kit, let you return the stock M70 flywheel, perhaps for a reasonable restocking fee, and jump on the 98% odds that it'll fit and the ~80% odds that it'll be silent.

    I dug into this more and from what I can tell the OEM Sachs clutch kit for the e31 is NLA Although I assume UUC still has some left because they sell it paired with their custom 280mm lightweight flywheel. I'll have to give Rob Levinson a call and pick his brain about this. If I had to pick between the possibility of light rattle using the e31 v12 280mm setup, versus using the stock dual-mass 265mm e34 flywheel, I'd take my chances using the e31 stuff assuming I can find a clutch/pressure plate/throwout bearing kit. Side note - the e34 OEM dual mass is super expensive - more than twice the cost of the v12 single mass flywheel.

    The slave cylinder is the same part number between e34 and e31 v12, so the only concern is the total distance from the crank hub to the back of the throwout bearing where it meets the lever arm to actuate the pressure plate. The e34 dual mass is really thick so I'd bet the v12 flywheel/clutch/pressure plate doesn't extend as far back from the engine as the stock e34 setup. Although, the thickness of the v12 throwout bearing might more than make up for that though. At this point I'm just guessing...

    As for the 240mm setup - I do not want to deal with those stupid self adjusting pressure plates. Are there any good clutch kits for the 240mm that use a regular pressure plate?
    Last edited by m60power; 07-12-2018 at 09:55 PM.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Location
    Prescott, Az
    Posts
    439
    My Cars
    '95 540i/6
    I am using a Spec single mass flywheel for the M60, when I weighed it on a luggage scale it hung at 17lbs. I had to raise idle RPM a bit to smooth idle over. I originally used a Spec kevlar unsprung disc, never again. Now there is a Luk O.E type clutch & disc and it has much better street manners, I believe it came to roughly 265mm.

    If the v12 stuffs fits the v8 and the 280mm clutch clears everything in the trans then go for it! The gear rattle can be stopped with a synth gear oil/ATF blend.

    For my next project I was considering a 240mm disc with a "stageII" pressure plate, but that project will only have 400hp M62 in a 1500lb vehicle

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    1,133
    My Cars
    e34 540ia/e32 740il
    Quote Originally Posted by Mykk View Post
    I am using a Spec single mass flywheel for the M60, when I weighed it on a luggage scale it hung at 17lbs. I had to raise idle RPM a bit to smooth idle over. I originally used a Spec kevlar unsprung disc, never again. Now there is a Luk O.E type clutch & disc and it has much better street manners, I believe it came to roughly 265mm.

    If the v12 stuffs fits the v8 and the 280mm clutch clears everything in the trans then go for it! The gear rattle can be stopped with a synth gear oil/ATF blend.

    For my next project I was considering a 240mm disc with a "stageII" pressure plate, but that project will only have 400hp M62 in a 1500lb vehicle
    Thanks for the input! Do you know if that LUK 265mm clutch is a sprung disk? I don't want to use a solid disk with a single mass flywheel.

    Yes the 280mm clutch and flywheel clears the trans bell housing. The 280mm flywheel mates to the m60 v8, and the starter ring gear is the same. The 280mm clutch spline also fits the stock getrag 420g. The issue with this approach is finding a clutch kit for the 280mm flywheel (the flywheel itself is cheap).
    Last edited by m60power; 07-12-2018 at 10:34 PM.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Location
    Prescott, Az
    Posts
    439
    My Cars
    '95 540i/6
    Quote Originally Posted by m60power View Post
    Thanks for the input! Do you know if that LUK 265mm clutch is a sprung disk? I don't want to use a solid disk with a single mass flywheel.
    Unfortunately yes, it's unsprung. And all O.E. type clutches originally used with dual mass FW will be unsprung. Despite being unsprung, it hasn't caused any issues on my vehicle. From my understanding the springs are only for idle and low rpm noise as any kind of acceleration or load maxes the springs to compressed and acts as a locked/solid disc.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Melbourne, Australia
    Posts
    1,903
    My Cars
    E24, E34 x2, E36
    Hey. I have the JB 280mm kit and it works a treat with a sprung clutch plate. I had custom friction material tailings installed as mine is supercharged. It works great. No rattle and barely any negative effects. The organic one would have been fine but I wanted some security.
    BMW’s
    90 E34 M5
    84 E24 M635csi standalone ecu with coil on plug
    94 E34 540i/6 SC 5-17psi Flex fuel/standalone ecu
    97 Z3 2.8
    97 E36 M3 euro SC still u/c


    OTHERS
    11 Audi S5 APR stg2
    19 Volkswagen Amarok V6


  6. #6
    moroza's Avatar
    moroza is offline MORΩN ΛABIA BMW CCA Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    BFE
    Posts
    11,090
    My Cars
    E34T
    You called around and were told the clutch kit (a wear item) is NLA while the flywheel (not a wear item) is still available? WTF are they smoking in München?

    Hey Gaz, where'd you get your clutch?

    E34 M5 had a sprung 240mm clutch disk, but I don't know if the splines and other geometry are compatible with the 420G. The problem with 240mm is just that it's a bit small for longevity with an M60.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    NW suburban Chicago
    Posts
    16,300
    My Cars
    hiss by my window
    Why adverse to the stock DMF?

    If you can leave two black stripes from the exit of one corner to the braking zone of the next, you have enough horsepower. - Mark Donohue

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Location
    Prescott, Az
    Posts
    439
    My Cars
    '95 540i/6
    Quote Originally Posted by ross1 View Post
    Why adverse to the stock DMF?

    They are heavy adding to rotating mass, they are a wear item and intended to be replaced with the clutch that adds significant cost to the job. Plus using an O.E heavy DMF isn't very internet racer. :-P

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Melbourne, Australia
    Posts
    1,903
    My Cars
    E24, E34 x2, E36
    The old owner originally got the jb racing kit of turner Motorsport. I got the clutch modified at a local company in Brisbane Australia called “direct clutch services”.

    Here is is a link if anyone was ever using them. They are the only ones in Australia that can do the modifications that I needed.

    http://www.directclutch.com.au/
    BMW’s
    90 E34 M5
    84 E24 M635csi standalone ecu with coil on plug
    94 E34 540i/6 SC 5-17psi Flex fuel/standalone ecu
    97 Z3 2.8
    97 E36 M3 euro SC still u/c


    OTHERS
    11 Audi S5 APR stg2
    19 Volkswagen Amarok V6


  10. #10
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Charleston, SC
    Posts
    143
    My Cars
    x5m
    I'm running a JBR 240mm flywheel and an OEM e39 m5 clutch in my turbo 540. I love the setup. Very driveable, grabs hard, and the stock clutch can be had for cheap. Little to no chatter, only time is when initially accelerating at very low rpm. I wouldn't worry about longevity or load being an issue with the 240 over the 265mm....if that was strong enough for the s62, a stock m60 surely isn't going to over power it. I'm making around 400whp and it hold up just fine.
    e70 x5m vrsf downpipes and turbolabs turbos - current
    e34 540 turbo take 2 - sold
    e34 540 turbo - crashed and burned

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    1,133
    My Cars
    e34 540ia/e32 740il
    Quote Originally Posted by motorokr718 View Post
    I'm running a JBR 240mm flywheel and an OEM e39 m5 clutch in my turbo 540. I love the setup. Very driveable, grabs hard, and the stock clutch can be had for cheap. Little to no chatter, only time is when initially accelerating at very low rpm. I wouldn't worry about longevity or load being an issue with the 240 over the 265mm....if that was strong enough for the s62, a stock m60 surely isn't going to over power it. I'm making around 400whp and it hold up just fine.
    Good point. Regardless of load the torque output of a stock m60 is still only 295 ft-lbs.

    Moroza - you mentioned that the the slave cylinder pin needs to be shortened ~4mm with the v12 clutch setup. According to the ETK the v12 e31 slave cylinder is the same part number as the e34 540. In researching this more I came across this thread:

    https://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/s...-6-clutch-info

    The OP in that thread claims the v12 assembly including the throw out bearing (so I assume to where the clutch fork touches the back of the bearing) is 5mm shorter than the e34 assembly. If that is true wouldn't the pin need to be ~5mm longer?

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Calgary
    Posts
    859
    My Cars
    95 540iT/6, W8 Wagon 6sp
    In case anyone is wondering about the stock 265mm DMF combo, RockAuto has a great price for the stock DMF ($300) and a decent price for the clutch kit ($310). All in all, that may be one of the cheapest options. I just replaced both items on my car. With the M60 I can't complain about how fast the engine revs up...

    Also for the stock setup, there are no differences between LuK and Sachs flywheels or clutches. It seems like there is only one manufacturer for each item. Pick whichever of those two is cheapest.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    Southern California
    Posts
    513
    My Cars
    1995 540/6 Calypsorot
    I'm running the 265mm SPEC flywheel and their stage 3+ sprung clutch. It still chatter a little bit, and the clutch is grabby, but I love it. Very responsive and still daily drivable.
    Jason Grace

  14. #14
    moroza's Avatar
    moroza is offline MORΩN ΛABIA BMW CCA Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    BFE
    Posts
    11,090
    My Cars
    E34T
    Quote Originally Posted by m60power View Post
    Good point. Regardless of load the torque output of a stock m60 is still only 295 ft-lbs.

    Moroza - you mentioned that the the slave cylinder pin needs to be shortened ~4mm with the v12 clutch setup. According to the ETK the v12 e31 slave cylinder is the same part number as the e34 540. In researching this more I came across this thread:

    https://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/s...-6-clutch-info

    The OP in that thread claims the v12 assembly including the throw out bearing (so I assume to where the clutch fork touches the back of the bearing) is 5mm shorter than the e34 assembly. If that is true wouldn't the pin need to be ~5mm longer?
    Maybe it's specific to the UUC flywheel, then. When I first assembled my engine and trans, with the stock slave, the clutch was released with everything bolted up and the slave cylinder bottomed out. I shortened the pin by 4mm and the clutch stayed engaged by default, releasing with the slave right about halfway through its travel. This setup has been working fine for 8 years and 60k miles and counting.

    Between Nick (the E34 owner with an M70 crank in his living room) and this thread you linked to, I'm convinced that the E31 naysayers are full of it.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    1,133
    My Cars
    e34 540ia/e32 740il
    Quote Originally Posted by moroza View Post
    Maybe it's specific to the UUC flywheel, then. When I first assembled my engine and trans, with the stock slave, the clutch was released with everything bolted up and the slave cylinder bottomed out. I shortened the pin by 4mm and the clutch stayed engaged by default, releasing with the slave right about halfway through its travel. This setup has been working fine for 8 years and 60k miles and counting.

    Between Nick (the E34 owner with an M70 crank in his living room) and this thread you linked to, I'm convinced that the E31 naysayers are full of it.
    Ah gotcha, that makes sense. If I end up going the v12 route I'll just have to experiment to make sure the slave isn't releasing the clutch at all when the cylinder is retracted all the way, or conversely, making sure the slave can fully release the clutch when totally extended (if the whole clutch/flywheel/bearing assembly ends up being significantly shorter than the stock v8 setup).

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    1,133
    My Cars
    e34 540ia/e32 740il
    Since the 850csi clutch kit is NLA I abandoned that idea and went with the TTV 265mm single mass flywheel and the stock Sachs clutch and pressure plate. Hopefully there isn't too much rattle and the clutch engagement is manageable with it not being sprung. I'll make a thread documenting the swap once I dive into it.

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Ambler, PA
    Posts
    208
    My Cars
    1995 540i/6
    The e32 build sounds awesome, but you'd be better off finding a solid 540i/6 and call it a day 😝

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Bellevue, WA
    Posts
    882
    My Cars
    E34
    Quote Originally Posted by m60power View Post
    Since the 850csi clutch kit is NLA I abandoned that idea and went with the TTV 265mm single mass flywheel and the stock Sachs clutch and pressure plate. Hopefully there isn't too much rattle and the clutch engagement is manageable with it not being sprung. I'll make a thread documenting the swap once I dive into it.
    I run this combo in my 540i. There's virtually no rattle, that I can hear.
    Not sure what you mean by "hopefully clutch engagement is manageable," mine feels nice and smooth, I've not had any problems with it.

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    NW suburban Chicago
    Posts
    16,300
    My Cars
    hiss by my window
    Quote Originally Posted by Mykk View Post
    They are heavy adding to rotating mass, they are a wear item and intended to be replaced with the clutch that adds significant cost to the job. Plus using an O.E heavy DMF isn't very internet racer. :-P
    OP mentions towing, a light flywheel is counter to those purposes. Replacing the flywheel with the clutch isn't mandatory, although they'd love you to think so. Even if you do this is done how often?
    Anyway, ain't my car
    Last edited by ross1; 09-04-2018 at 12:35 PM.

    If you can leave two black stripes from the exit of one corner to the braking zone of the next, you have enough horsepower. - Mark Donohue

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Scottsdale, AZ
    Posts
    52
    My Cars
    1995 540i 6 speed
    You have really mode this overly complicated for unreasonable reasons.

    Just buy a TTV flywheel in the smaller m62 version and either get an E39 M5 clutch or if the rattle is that big of an issue then find a nice aftermarket sprung clutch. By the way the aftermarket clutches available to the M62 market is FAR better than any of the other options you are looking to get. On top of all this the TTV flywheel is crazy cheap for the amount of time and labor in that part.

    As for holding power lets not be silly. Do you honestly think a stock M60 in a E32 for street driving is really going to over power a stock E39 M5 clutch? As for towning you are now getting into a weird area. You are going through all this to buy a clutch/flywheel combo for the few times you tow, yet the daily driving is taking a back seat, again silly.



    I have a TTV flywheel and E39 M5 clutch in my 540 and they work great. I beat on the car when I drive it and have yet to even think about the clutch not holding let alone it actually slipping. I also paid about 700.00 for the combo which is crazy cheap considering all the other options and what they want.

  21. #21
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    1,133
    My Cars
    e34 540ia/e32 740il
    Quote Originally Posted by ross1 View Post
    OP mentions towing, a light flywheel is counter to those purposes. Replacing the flywheel with the clutch isn't mandatory, although they'd love you to think so. Even if you do this is done how often?
    Anyway, ain't my car
    You are correct, the stock dual mass would be best for towing, but I wasn't trying to optimize for that since I'd be towing less than 1% of the time. I'm wary of the dual mass failures I've read about over the years and frankly I don't care to deal with the special tool needed for the captive flywheel bolts. I wanted something slightly sportier than stock without getting crazy.

  22. #22
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    1,133
    My Cars
    e34 540ia/e32 740il
    Quote Originally Posted by boostedinaz View Post
    You have really mode this overly complicated for unreasonable reasons.

    Just buy a TTV flywheel in the smaller m62 version and either get an E39 M5 clutch or if the rattle is that big of an issue then find a nice aftermarket sprung clutch. By the way the aftermarket clutches available to the M62 market is FAR better than any of the other options you are looking to get. On top of all this the TTV flywheel is crazy cheap for the amount of time and labor in that part.

    As for holding power lets not be silly. Do you honestly think a stock M60 in a E32 for street driving is really going to over power a stock E39 M5 clutch? As for towning you are now getting into a weird area. You are going through all this to buy a clutch/flywheel combo for the few times you tow, yet the daily driving is taking a back seat, again silly.



    I have a TTV flywheel and E39 M5 clutch in my 540 and they work great. I beat on the car when I drive it and have yet to even think about the clutch not holding let alone it actually slipping. I also paid about 700.00 for the combo which is crazy cheap considering all the other options and what they want.
    I did buy the TTV flywheel (In 265mm form). It was crazy cheap, only $420 shipped. I also picked up a stock Sachs clutch kit for $380. The TTV 265mm flywheel is 3 pounds heavier than the TTV 240mm.

    The e39 M5 probably has a higher force pressure plate than the regular 540 240mm version (I would hope), but on an M5 they do not have a reputation for lasting very long. I'm not worried about holding power on the m60, I want longevity in my setup. The beauty of a larger diameter clutch and flywheel is less force and less pressure on the face to obtain an equivalent torque capacity, so assuming the same friction material, it will give a slower wear rate. This is because of both the larger moment arm and larger area of the clutch surface.
    Last edited by m60power; 09-15-2018 at 10:44 PM.

  23. #23
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Melbourne, Australia
    Posts
    1,903
    My Cars
    E24, E34 x2, E36
    The 280 v12 clutch is holding up well
    BMW’s
    90 E34 M5
    84 E24 M635csi standalone ecu with coil on plug
    94 E34 540i/6 SC 5-17psi Flex fuel/standalone ecu
    97 Z3 2.8
    97 E36 M3 euro SC still u/c


    OTHERS
    11 Audi S5 APR stg2
    19 Volkswagen Amarok V6


  24. #24
    moroza's Avatar
    moroza is offline MORΩN ΛABIA BMW CCA Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    BFE
    Posts
    11,090
    My Cars
    E34T
    Heads up: stock (used) E31 setup for dirt cheap. https://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/s...ghlight=clutch

  25. #25
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    1,133
    My Cars
    e34 540ia/e32 740il
    Quote Originally Posted by moroza View Post
    Heads up: stock (used) E31 setup for dirt cheap. https://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/s...ghlight=clutch
    Damn that's a good find. Wish I saw it before I bought the clutch and flywheel.

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 5
    Last Post: 02-26-2015, 05:42 PM
  2. E36 FS: Getrag 5spd, clutch, flywheel, driveshaft, shifter linkage
    By Boarderx192 in forum Drivetrain & Transmission Parts
    Replies: 23
    Last Post: 05-20-2013, 10:28 AM
  3. MA FS: e36 M50b25/5spd getrag/HD euro M3 clutch/JB flywheel
    By sjpgoalie in forum New England - US
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 02-16-2012, 12:03 PM
  4. getrag 265 early M30 flywheel sachs clutch
    By Tomslide in forum Drivetrain & Transmission Parts
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 04-05-2009, 02:07 PM
  5. clutch & alum. flywheel with Getrag 220?
    By gagler in forum 1991 - 1999 (E36)
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 07-10-2007, 12:07 AM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •