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Thread: 535i Motor will not turn over

  1. #1
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    535i Motor will not turn over

    Hi everyone, I have an 89’ 535i that I use for a daily driver, 300k+ on the clock and till recently no major engine problems. But as of late I have had power loss from higher RPM, say 4K and above. Push on the gas motor would spin up slowly, but nothing much would happen. Also accompanied by a “rattle” type sound, almost like the timing chain in my old m62 powered e38. So I wrote the problem off as in need of a valve adjustment, so I went ahead and did that to allievate the problem.

    After the first valve adjustment 0.009” at the cam side with my go-no go feeler gauge, the rattle was now noticeably louder, and came on at lower rpm ~ 1k and above. It follows with rpms, increasing in noise and pitch. So I did another valve adjustment, this time at the valve, to the tune of 0.012”. Both stone cold motors. Rattle persisted with the second adjustment aswell. I figured I must have adjusted them too lose to be so noisy (car sounds like a tank rolling along), but as far as I know, loose valves = safe where as tight valves = burned valves. So I thought the noise fine to drive on.

    Well today I was driving the car to work, and maybe 14 min into my drive I am crawling onto the freeway and the car stops. I watch my gauges, no overheating or battery problems or anything of the sort. No loud sounds. Car just dies. I thought I had stalled it, so I try to fire it back up. Nothing, just a click. Not dead battery starter click, but rather a sole attempt at the starter to start the car, and it doesn’t continue. So I push the car over with the help of highway patrol who happened to be behind me, get towed, and get a friend to take me to work. Before leaving the car, I find out that if you keep bumping the starter, eventually it sorta gets “unstuck” and then it will freely spin (slower than normal, albiet), and will indeed crank the car. And the car will fire up, with the most dreadful knocking sound you’ve ever heard, for a couple of seconds, before it dies (I most certainly didn’t try to keep the car running). After than the starter locks up again, and you have to bump it multiple times again to get the same result.

    I’ve never had to deal with a seized motor or anything of the sort, but does this sound like one? I don’t see how a valve adjustment could have caused this, and maybe it’s another problem happening at the same time? I don’t necessarily know what to think, and have already started looking for another engine. Let me know if you guys have any idea as to what might be wrong, or if you need any more information from me. I would be more than happy to tell you anything necessary. Thanks!

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    Put a wrench on the Jesus bolt and see if it turns.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Old525i View Post
    Put a wrench on the Jesus bolt and see if it turns.
    The crank will turn with the starter, after bumping it a few times (starter on off, on off, maybe 10 times. Then on the 11th or so the starter will spin freely and the engine will fire)

    Would it it make a difference if I could turn the motor by hand? I’m only asking because I don’t have the right size wrench or socket to turn that nut. But if it makes the difference please tell me, and I’ll go get the proper tools. I’m very ignorant when it comes to the internal stuff with engines.

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    Turning the jesus bolt with a wrench just confirms its not seized. (Which you now know) A click, click, click, turn over condition usually means a bad starter (PIA to change in the M30).

    You could have any number of issues. The engine noise could be timing chain guides. At 300,000 miles its a good bet they are done.

    Things I would also check:
    1. Load test battery
    2. Test alternator output. Should be @ 14.5 v running.
    3. Test CPS. (see Bentley manual)

    The good news is the the M30 is a pretty stout engine. If the guides / tensioner are worn out you could easily do some damage like jump timing so confirm their condition.

    Good luck
    Last edited by zubbie; 07-13-2018 at 06:54 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zubbie View Post
    The good news is the the M30 is a pretty stout engine. If the guides / tensioner are worn out you could easily do some damage like jump timing so confirm their condition.
    In the case where the guides broke, and anything that can go wrong did go wrong in there, is it worth it to try and salvage the engine I have (new guides tensioner, timing set) or have I run the risk of internal engine damage (valve to piston contact I would assume?) and would be better off swapping in a replacement engine?

    I havent done done either of these things before (sold the e38 when it started making a racket) and certainly haven’t taken a whole engine out, is it within the realm of possibility for a guy who usually does all the work on his car?

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    Remove the sparkplugs, put it in neutral, and it should turn by hand with no spots of extra resistance. If it doesn't, something is wrong in the rotating assembly. The next thing I would try is removing (or sufficiently loosening) both rocker shafts and then repeating the test. That'll close all the valves, and if the engine still won't turn over nicely, either the bottom end is damaged or some valves are severely bent. EDIT: the head bolts apparently hold down the rocker shafts. I'd still remove them, and be prepared to remove the head.

    Onomatopoeias can vary, but M30 valvetrain noise is usually described as a tick resembling a sewing machine, while a rattle is more often associated with loose heat shields and timing chain issues. Knocks are either ignition/fuel-related (preignition/detonation) or bottom-end noise; the heaviest knocks seem to be most often from main bearings, and slightly lighter knocks from rod bearings.

    I'd say the prerequisites to replacing an engine are being able to bleed coolant, and do a clutch job.
    Last edited by moroza; 07-13-2018 at 10:06 PM.

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    I've never personally experienced main bearing failure but have witnessed the aftermath on a few. One in particular, coincidentally another M30, came to me with similar description of the failure from the owner. Driving on highway, all ostensibly well and it died without drama.
    The main bearings had been oil starved and spun, one partially overlapping the other bearing half effectively seizing the engine. The starter would struggle and turn it a bit. If the engine were turned backward by hand it would free up and if it fired on the first revolution would run ever so slowly at full throttle. Engine was junk, crank wiped out, main bearing saddles wiped too. Lots of heat blue-ing everywhere.
    Failing main bearings are a bunch more subtle than connecting rods which rattle a lot. I can see a scenario in which radio on, at highway speed this could go un-noticed for a while.
    Hope I'm wrong but your car sure sounds like the one I just described. Good luck
    were you low on oil?

    If you can leave two black stripes from the exit of one corner to the braking zone of the next, you have enough horsepower. - Mark Donohue

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    Quote Originally Posted by moroza View Post
    Remove the sparkplugs, put it in neutral, and it should turn by hand with no spots of extra resistance. If it doesn't, something is wrong in the rotating assembly
    Tried your recommendation; no dice. Won’t turn by hand, at least not mine that’s for sure. So looks like we have a problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by ross1 View Post
    Hope I'm wrong but your car sure sounds like the one I just described. Good luck
    were you low on oil?
    Wasn’t low and oil, and still haven’t lost any either if that makes much of a difference. The problem might be the one you described, either way I can feel that the engine is most likely toast. When it’s out of the car, I might crack it open to see exactly what happened. Thank you guys for all your help.

    Now on to hopefully the last part of all of this, replacing the engine. Moroza makes it out to be a relatively simply job, and from what I’ve looked into so far, as long as you label what is what, and take your time, it should be all that big a job, compared to other more involved tasks. I’m not too sad about this, because M30s are pretty cheap to get a hold of, and should last pretty long as well (I should have addressed the rattling noise as soon as I started hearing it, but live and learn I guess).

    Anyway, onto my question. I’m looking at an 89’ 735i from which to steal my new engine from. 140k on the clock, automatic transmission obviously (that coupled with the fact that it’s a 7 series hopefully means the m30 has had an easy life so far) and a not so great body. My questions are: There should be not mounting differences with the engine, correct? and if the wiring harness from my car would be plug and play, considering the automatic transmission this new motor was hooked up to (and electric throttle I think?)

    Also, before I slap this engine in, is there anything that now would be a really good time to replace (rear main seal etc). I plan on replacing the flywheel with a lightweight version from an e28 m5, and I think I have to get a clutch kit to go with that, but other than that I don’t exactly know what should be done while the engine is out. Hopefully after all of this, I won’t have to touch the car for a good bit.

    Thanks for all your help so far, I’ll have to find a way to return the favor!

  9. #9
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    One last thing to try, though it sounds unlikely to produce results: remove the accessory belts, and try turning it again.

    Swapping an engine is a big job with a lot of steps. Count on a couple days of work. If you'ven't done it before, I advise finding a helper who has. What I listed as prerequisites are specific skills required, and that's at bare minimum. You'll also need general mechanical knowledge and ability on a level commensurate with those specifics.

    I drove a stock E28 M5 and felt that its flywheel was rather heavy. I don't have numbers, but it felt a lot more sluggish than my M62 (with a 15# FW).

    Do a proper (hot) compression test on the donor engine, if possible.

    RMS and oilpan gasket are the two biggest "while you're in there" jobs. Trans input seal maybe also.

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    Quote Originally Posted by moroza View Post
    I drove a stock E28 M5 and felt that its flywheel was rather heavy. I don't have numbers, but it felt a lot more sluggish than my M62 (with a 15# FW).

    RMS and oilpan gasket are the two biggest "while you're in there" jobs. Trans input seal maybe also.
    Alright so belts came off today, and still nothing. Not happy, but it is what it is.

    https://www.ebay.com/i/173325493161?
    This is the exact flywheel I am looking at, maybe it’s not an m5 FW after all, but he says it is 15# as well, so possibly a good choice? Is there a specific clutch kit for single mass FWs? Also I want a FW with the reference sensor, correct?

    So new flywheel, clutch kit, rear main, oil pan (which I have already) and trans input should cover the majority of important stuff I’ll want to address while I have all the free space back there, yes? If so, I’m gonna go ahead and push the car into the driveway, and get it all ready to come out. Hopefully can pickup the 735 by this coming Saturday, get it all checked out, and have the two swapped by that following week. Never done something this in-depth before, but I certainly can’t afford to pay someone to do it. So by necessity I’m going to learn, lol.


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    you'd be foolish not to re-gasket the new motor and have a look at the rocker shaft banjo bolts and T-chain guides while in there.
    Water pump too as I've never seen an M30 WP go much past 60k, they are cheap.

    If you can leave two black stripes from the exit of one corner to the braking zone of the next, you have enough horsepower. - Mark Donohue

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    Quote Originally Posted by ross1 View Post
    you'd be foolish not to re-gasket the new motor and have a look at the rocker shaft banjo bolts and T-chain guides while in there.
    Water pump too as I've never seen an M30 WP go much past 60k, they are cheap.
    Just based on the sounds I heard before this whole incident, timing chains are top of my list for the new engine. And I just used my updated banjo bolts and new crush washers on the dead engine, guess I’m going to have to spend a couple bucks again . All new gaskets everywhere I can is on the list as well. Just don’t have the funds for every last one rn.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ross1 View Post
    you'd be foolish not to re-gasket the new motor and have a look at the rocker shaft banjo bolts and T-chain guides while in there.
    Water pump too as I've never seen an M30 WP go much past 60k, they are cheap.
    Speaks sage advice. No M30 last more tha 60k without leaking from many points. Maintenance on other common wear items will mean many mikes of trouble free driving.

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    Quote Originally Posted by theBMWbeast View Post
    Just based on the sounds I heard before this whole incident, timing chains are top of my list for the new engine. And I just used my updated banjo bolts and new crush washers on the dead engine, guess I’m going to have to spend a couple bucks again . All new gaskets everywhere I can is on the list as well. Just don’t have the funds for every last one rn.
    Please follow up with a post mortem. These things are tough to kill, I'm curious to see what did this one in.

    If you can leave two black stripes from the exit of one corner to the braking zone of the next, you have enough horsepower. - Mark Donohue

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    Quote Originally Posted by moroza View Post
    I drove a stock E28 M5 and felt that its flywheel was rather heavy. I don't have numbers, but it felt a lot more sluggish than my M62 (with a 15# FW).
    IIRC S38B35 stock flywheel is ~21 lbs. JB Racing flywheel is a tremendous upgrade for the engine.

    Quote Originally Posted by theBMWbeast View Post
    Alright so belts came off today, and still nothing. Not happy, but it is what it is.

    https://www.ebay.com/i/173325493161?
    This is the exact flywheel I am looking at, maybe it’s not an m5 FW after all, but he says it is 15# as well, so possibly a good choice? Is there a specific clutch kit for single mass FWs? Also I want a FW with the reference sensor, correct?

    Get a PN. Unless the seller machined the flywheel, which is not apparent aside from resurfacing, its not a S38B35 flywheel. The S38B35 flywheel is heavier than 15lbs and you should be aware of what part you are installing due to fitment issues with mixing and matching M30 and S38 clutches. The S38B36 flywheel is around 15lbs but the seller is not advertising the E34, so who knows. Get some questions answered.

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    Quote Originally Posted by de Witt View Post
    Get a PN. Unless the seller machined the flywheel, which is not apparent aside from resurfacing, its not a S38B35 flywheel. Get some questions answered.
    Thanks for the heads up, I’ll definitely get clear with the seller as to what exactly he has before I do anything. Not in the mood to spend more money on stuff that won’t even work.

    Hopefully my last question here, before I start showing you guys the post mortem and hopefully successful swap after this weekend. Does it matter the year of car I’m getting the engine from? I know I can’t go back, but what about 90’ 91’ etc. Is there a difference with wiring harnesses or anything else with the “newer” M30B35s or are they exactly the same? I have an 89’ model year car. Thanks

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    Any E32 or E34 sourced M30 will work. I think SOME late 3.5 E23/4/8s had correct engine mount bolt boss' for E32/4 also, or do the early E32/4 engines have both?

    If you can leave two black stripes from the exit of one corner to the braking zone of the next, you have enough horsepower. - Mark Donohue

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    Just a hunch, but would some sort of catastrophic failure of the dual mass flywheel produce any of the symptoms I’ve described? It used to rattle on shutdown. Car had a metal on metal humming noise when in motion, that I have blamed the driveshaft center bearing on. Anyone think this might be a thing, or am I way off base?

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    Possible, but I would expect a lot of grinding, crunching, and sundry other noises to accompany a DMF that failed that bad.

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    Opened her up as I was prepping for the swap tonight. At a cursory glance I would say perhaps the timing chain guide was the culprit? It appears to have broken where the tensioner piston meets the guide. (I drained the oil from that little divet for inspection). Let me know what you guys make of this.

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    That white/yellow thing lodged between the guide shouldn't be there. I can't make out what it is and where it looks to have come from. I have 2 M30 cars and none of them has that. The guide looks fine judging from the pictures. I may not have been pushed further because of that foreign object being lodged there. Not sure if not having the proper tension on the timing chain can cause the timing to be off.

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    That's part of the plastic chain guide located on the other side. The tensioner is that black piece which doesn't break because it's made out of steel.
    demet

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    Your engine looks pretty clean inside. So, maybe a few bent valves but me thinks it's savable.

    If you can leave two black stripes from the exit of one corner to the braking zone of the next, you have enough horsepower. - Mark Donohue

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    Yeah so far I can't see any other damage than that. Even the valve train looks clean to me although I'll make note I don't really know what to look for. Perhaps I just need to replace the guide, but then my question becomes why the insanely loud noise I described, and why did the engine seize up? Would a compression test let me know about the bottomends condition? What about the rotating assembly

    In any event I'm going to try and find something to get the crank nut off, because if I want to try and fix this engine I'll have to take off the lower timing cover and replace the guide. I'll let you guys know how it goes.

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    Now, with the chain exposed you'll be able to get an idea by trying to turn the motor over. Will it turn either direction? There is obviously debris floating around in there.
    Could be multiple issues too.
    The crank nut is a MF(300 lb/ft, sir) BUT if the motor is indeed seized you'll perhaps not need to worry about holding the motor from turning. Get a strong breaker bar and a pipe! 3/4" drive preferred.
    as for the noise. well, imagine a bunch of "stuff" being churned around by that chain.
    I'm curious if timing skipped or not.
    Last edited by ross1; 07-30-2018 at 07:35 PM.

    If you can leave two black stripes from the exit of one corner to the braking zone of the next, you have enough horsepower. - Mark Donohue

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