low pressure fuel pump...intermittent

[craig3x]

2010 535i died on the fwy and it threw a "low pressure fuel pump" message. It started back up after about 10 minutes and I drove it to a BMW certified shop. They pulled some codes and told me the low pressure fuel pump needed to be replaced which cost me $1200. Two weeks later the car dies again, throwing the same message. Took it back to the shop, but it's running fine after he cleared the codes and said there's nothing he can do if he can't mimic the symptom. I now have to go pick my car up, knowing it's randomly going to stall out again sometime in the near future. Did I just replace a fuel pump that wasn't bad to begin with? What is going on?

[bmwdirtracer]

Well, let's see: Absolute full list retail on a factory BMW pump is $435...
https://www.getbmwparts.com/oem-part...mp-16117373521

Labor is 3 hours:
Replace
In Tank Pump B 2.3 3.0 (this is from Alldata)


So, well, you paid too much, but, well, Sacramento is expensive..


Now, a "BMW certified shop" is the dealership, period. Certainly, there are excellent independent BMW specialist shops (I work at one), but they are not "BMW certified", because BMW does not lend its name to any independent shop.

Let's go a little further: What exactly were the codes? And what are the codes now? If the same code has recurred, the shop doesn't need to have the problem manifest. Certainly, there are other possibilities: perhaps the fuel pump control module is bad. Perhaps the high pressure pump is bad (this is covered by an extended warranty and a recall, by the way).

If ISTA (BMW's diagnostic computer) was used to run the diagnostic test plan for your particular codes, it would likely point directly to the culprit.

Also, has the tank been half full or less for any of these instances? If so, perhaps the "sucking jet pump" has come adrift. (This is a passive fuel transfer "pump" on the opposite side of the tank, which carries fuel to the electric pump.)

At the very least, the shop should stand behind their work, and give you a valid diagnosis as to why the codes have recurred, as well as replacing the pump, if the exact same codes have returned again....because that means either the new pump is faulty, or they misdiagnosed it. My shop has a two year warranty on their work, if they provide the parts.

Be aware that the "sucking jet pump" failure is uncommon enough that most techs wouldn't look for it, if there were codes for low pressure fuel pump -- AND ISTA probably wouldn't find this one either. Because I'm a racer, and have run my car out of gas when it had half a tank, I look for this one. This one causes the electric pump to run out of fuel, while the other side of the tank has PLENTY of gas.

[craig3x]

Well the dealership wanted $1450, so I dunno.
Correct, I should have said "specialist" instead of "certified".
Here are the work orders before I replaced the LPFP and after the symptoms came back. They are saying these codes can't tell you "exactly" what is wrong and that sometimes you have to "try" things. Well now they suggest I "try" the pressure sensor. Throwing money at a problem with several potential culprits "trying" to solve the problem doesn't really excite me.






Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[jclausen]

Clearly they need to look at the car again and for free. You went with their recommendation on the repair. If this place has a service manager talk with him forget the service advisor. The service manager can get the foreman involved

[craig3x]

well, the dealer wanted $1400, so I dunno.
You are correct. I should have said BMW "specialist", not "certified"

The shop explained that the codes they pull cannot tell you exactly what is wrong with the car, as there are several components involving the fuel system. I am disappointed that I was told to replace the LPFP, and it did not resolve the problem. Now they are suggesting I replace the pressure sensor, even though it is reading fine. They said I need to keep "trying" things until we find the problem. And if the sensor doesn't fix it, then try the HPFP. Well, throwing loads of money at a problem that has several different potential culprits doesn't excite me much. I will try to load the work orders later showing what codes they found.

[craig3x]

Clearly they need to look at the car again and for free. You went with their recommendation on the repair. If this place has a service manager talk with him forget the service advisor. The service manager can get the foreman involved

They did look at the car again for free, but said they cannot mimic the situation I'm having, so there's nothing they can do. What bothers me is the car ran fine when I brought it to them the first time as well. So mimicking the situation wasn't their concern at that time. They just pulled codes and told me to replace the LPFP. After to problem reoccurred, I asked him if maybe the LPFP was never the problem in the first place, and he told me that it was because they did a volume test, and it wasn't flowing enough. Is that a real test that can be done through a scanner?
Now they say to "try" something else. They suggest the LPFP pressure sensor.

[bmwdirtracer]

Let's remember that the car quit running, AND set a code for the LPFP. The sensor couldn't cause the car to quit running. No, you can't do a volume test with a scanner.

What exactly were the codes, what diagnostic device was used to read them, and how much gas was in the car when these codes transpired.....and has anyone checked the relative levels of the two halves of the fuel tank?

[MarcoZandrini]

Find another shop using www.bimrs.org.

[craig3x]

Let's remember that the car quit running, AND set a code for the LPFP. The sensor couldn't cause the car to quit running. No, you can't do a volume test with a scanner.

What exactly were the codes, what diagnostic device was used to read them, and how much gas was in the car when these codes transpired.....and has anyone checked the relative levels of the two halves of the fuel tank?

a
See above for the work orders with the codes pulled. I know the 30FF code (low turbo boost pressure is related to a small crack on my valve cover which is causing a vacuum leak. But this should not be affecting my fuel pump/car dying issue. I plan to fix the valve cover after I resolve the first issue

[bmwdirtracer]

No one reads service bulletins, I guess?

.........

Campaign - HDP Fuel Pump Warranty Ext.
SI B13 03 09
Fuel Systems

November 2010
Technical Service

This Service Information bulletin supersedes SI B13 03 09 dated May 2010.

[NEW] designates changes to this revision

SUBJECT
N54 Special Limited High-pressure Pump (HDP) Emissions Warranty of 10 Years 120,000 Miles

MODEL
MY 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010 E60, E61 - 535i, 535xDrive with N54

MY 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010 E90, E92, E93 - 335i, 335xDrive, 335Ci, 335CixDrive, 335Cic with N54

MY 2008, 2009, 2010 E82, E88 - 135is with N54

MY 2009, 2010 E89 - Z4 sDrive 35i with N54

MY 2009, 2010 E71 - X6 xDrive 35i with N54

SITUATION

BMW has become aware of a potential problem that could affect the durability of the High-pressure Fuel Pump (HDP) of certain MY 2007, 2008, 2009, and 2010 BMW automobiles equipped with N54 engines. We estimate that only a small percentage of vehicles will actually develop a problem. Vehicles affected may have the Service Engine Soon lamp illuminated with various low fuel pressure-related faults (e.g., 29DC, 29F1, 29F2, 2FBF) stored in the Engine Control Module (DME). Also, the affected vehicles may experience an extended engine starting time ("long crank") or reduced engine performance ("engine failsafe mode") when the High-pressure Fuel Pump malfunctions.

CORRECTION

In the event that the High-pressure Fuel Pump of a MY 2007, 2008, 2009, or 2010 3 Series vehicle (335i/xi Sedan, Coupe or Convertible); MY 2007, 2008, 2009 or 2010 5 Series vehicle (535i/xi Sedan or Sports Wagon); MY 2008, 2009, or 2010 1 Series vehicle (135is Coupe or Convertible); MY 2009 or 2010 Z4 xDrive 35i; and MY 2009 or 2010 X6 xDrive 35i equipped with the N54 engine exhibits the symptoms listed above, it should be replaced with the improved part (P/N 13 51 7 613 933). For HDP diagnostic and replacement instructions, refer to SI B12 55 06 and REP 13 51 017.

IMPORTANT:
[NEW] Starting on Monday, November 1st, 2010, a TC part authorization for the HDP pump replacement is NOT required.

EMISSIONS WARRANTY INFORMATION
Covered under the terms of the BMW New Vehicle Limited Warranty.

As a commitment to our customers and to demonstrate our confidence in our product, BMW will extend the emissions warranty of the High-pressure Fuel Pump (HDP) from 4 years or 50,000 miles to 10 years or 120,000 miles, whichever comes first.

The emissions warranty extension for this component applies to the above-listed models only, and is transferable to any subsequent purchaser of these models.

This extended emissions warranty is applicable to vehicles registered in all 50 states.

Warranty coverage for all other parts is not affected.

BMW will inform all affected owners of the above-listed models of their extended High-pressure Fuel Pump emissions warranty. A sample letter is shown.

For the detailed Emissions Warranty information which should be used if the High-pressure Fuel Pump (HDP) replacement becomes necessary, refer to SI B12 55 06.


OR RECALLS:

Recall 10E-A02 - High Pressure Fuel Pump
Related Links

Attachment - Owner Letter

SI B13 13 10
Fuel Systems

September 2011
Technical Service

This Service Information bulletin supersedes SI B13 13 10 dated February 2011.

PERFORM THE PROCEDURE OUTLINED IN THIS SERVICE INFORMATION ON ALL AFFECTED VEHICLES THE NEXT TIME THEY ARE IN THE SHOP FOR MAINTENANCE OR REPAIRS.

[NEW] designates changes to this revision

SUBJECT
Voluntary Emissions Recall Campaign 10E-A02: N54 High-Pressure Fuel Pump (HDP)

MODEL
E60, E61, E71, E82, E88, E89, E90, E92, and E93 with the N54 engine produced from 05/26/2006 through 12/21/2009

SITUATION

An internal component in the high-pressure pump (HDP) may fail, causing drivability symptoms such as longer starting times or erratic engine operation. Should this situation occur, the engine emergency operation (Safe Mode) is activated and the Service Engine Soon lamp (MIL) is illuminated.

Note:
In this situation, the vehicle can continue to be driven, even for long distances, without the risk of a breakdown.

The low-pressure fuel sensor may deteriorate prematurely due to internal leakage. The Service Engine Soon lamp (MIL) may be illuminated with the appropriate fault code stored in the DME fault memory.

Copy of the customer notification letter is shown in this bulletin .

AFFECTED VEHICLES

This Emissions Recall Campaign involves E60, E61, E71, E82, E88, E89, E90, E92, and E93 vehicles with N54 engines which were produced from 05/26/2006 through 12/21/2009.

In order to determine whether a specific vehicle has had this Emissions Recall Campaign completed or is affected by this Recall Campaign, it will be necessary to utilize the "Service Menu" of DCSnet (Dealer Communication System) or the Key Reader. Based on the response of the system either proceed with the corrective action or take no further action.

CORRECTION

Read vehicle's fault memory using the current version of ISTA/D. Check, and if required, replace the low-pressure fuel sensor and the high-pressure fuel pump (HDP).

NOTE:
E89 (Z4) vehicles are not equipped with the low-pressure fuel sensor. A fault memory/low-pressure sensor check should not be performed on E89 vehicles.

PROCEDURE

1. Use the current ISTA diagnosis software (2.22 or higher). Perform the vehicle test and read the fault memory.

Note:
This step does not need to be performed on E89 vehicles.

2. If any of the following low-pressure sensor fault codes (29F3, 2A2D, 119201, 119202, 11A201, 11A202, 11B211) are stored in the DME, replace the low-pressure fuel sensor. Follow Repair Instruction REP 13 53 594. Clear the fault memory and continue to step 6.

3. If only fault codes 2FBF or 11A401 (Fuel pressure on-release injection; pressure too low) or no faults were stored in the DME memory, go to step 4.

4. Activate the electric fuel pump (EKP) for 20 seconds using ISTA/D and the diagnostic query function (after the vehicle test, select Control unit tree; DME; Call ECU functions; Diagnostic query; and Low-pressure fuel pump with activation).

5. If the low fuel pressure exceeds 6.7 bar at any time during the measurement period, replace the low-pressure fuel sensor. Follow Repair Instruction REP 13 53 594.

If the fuel pressure stays below 6.7 bar, the low-pressure sensor is operating correctly and does not require replacement.

Clear fault memory and continue to step 6.

6. [NEW] Verify the DCSnet vehicle repair history. If the high-pressure pump was recently replaced with P/N 13 51 7 613 933, 13 51 7 594 943 or with its supersession P/N 13 51 7 616 170, no more action is required.

7. [NEW] If the HDP was not replaced previously with P/N 13 51 7 613 933, 13 51 7 594 943 or P/N 13 51 7 616 170, install new high-pressure fuel pump P/N 13 51 7 616 446. Follow Repair Instruction REP 13 51 017.

Important:
Repair Instructions 13 51 017 and 13 53 594 have been updated with the release of special tool P/N 83 30 0 496 939. The special tool accommodates easy removal of the engine harness block located under the intake manifold. Consequently, the removal of the intake manifold is no longer necessary when replacing the HDP (or low-pressure fuel sensor) on the N54 engine (for more details, refer to SI B13 10 10).

IMPORTANT NOTE:
All three part numbers (P/N 13 51 7 613 933, P/N 13 51 7 616 170 and P/N 13 51 7 616 446) incorporate the same level of HDP quality improvements. If necessary, in order to expedite the repair time, you may use P/N 13 51 7 613 933 or P/N 13 51 7 616 170 from your center's parts stock supply. This may be done only for individual, time-critical cases. For regularly scheduled campaign repairs, P/N 13 51 7 616 446 should be ordered from the PDC.


What is your production date?

[craig3x]

I did read about the recall. However when I gave my VIN, they said my car was not affected. Plus I'm 10k miles past the warranty for that recall and the shop said my HPFP is fine...even though it threw a code with the LPFP. I'm very frustrated at this point. Trying to figure out a way to tell the shop that they are responsible for figuring this out since what they told me was the problem, hasn't solved the problem and has cost me $1200 which included the initial diagnostic fee.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[MarcoZandrini]

Find another shop!!!

[craig3x]

Find another shop!!!

great advice. So I'm just supposed to throw the $1200 away I spent in the misdiagnosis on the first shop?

[bmwdirtracer]

Craig, we're not legalese type people here, we're mechanical people. If your shop didn't have ISTA, they probably couldn't perform the required testing procedure to check the low pressure fuel pressure sensor. (See the last few paragraphs of the service bulletins.)

Did they actually check with the dealer to see whether your car might fall under the extended warranty? Who knows? My shop does this, WHEN I ASK THEM TO. The service advisor at an independent shop doesn't know enough to do this. Furthermore, the indy shop needs to have a good relationship with the dealer, to get a straight answer. (If they've been jerks to the dealer's service department in the past, the dealer's not going to be nice to them.) My shop is ALWAYS nice to the local dealership, and I personally try to keep abreast of the latest SIB updates, service actions, etc.

Mark's advice is NOT ill-intended. You need to establish a relationship with a shop, and a technician, whom you trust.

No matter what, your present shop is NOT going to refund you your $1200, or give you a credit in that amount, either. They owe you nothing more than the goodwill of trying to find the ongoing issue.

It's an extraordinarily complex contraption. There are no psychic technicians. $h!+ happens.

[craig3x]

Craig, we're not legalese type people here, we're mechanical people. If your shop didn't have ISTA, they probably couldn't perform the required testing procedure to check the low pressure fuel pressure sensor. (See the last few paragraphs of the service bulletins.)

Did they actually check with the dealer to see whether your car might fall under the extended warranty? Who knows? My shop does this, WHEN I ASK THEM TO. The service advisor at an independent shop doesn't know enough to do this. Furthermore, the indy shop needs to have a good relationship with the dealer, to get a straight answer. (If they've been jerks to the dealer's service department in the past, the dealer's not going to be nice to them.) My shop is ALWAYS nice to the local dealership, and I personally try to keep abreast of the latest SIB updates, service actions, etc.

Mark's advice is NOT ill-intended. You need to establish a relationship with a shop, and a technician, whom you trust.

No matter what, your present shop is NOT going to refund you your $1200, or give you a credit in that amount, either. They owe you nothing more than the goodwill of trying to find the ongoing issue.

They did check on the warranty for me, as did I. My VIN does not qualify.
I respect your opinion, however I disagree that they owe me nothing more than the goodwill of "trying". It wasn't goodwill. It cost me $1200, and if they are going to tell me that my problem WAS the lpfp, and it doesn't fix the problem, then they should figure out the actual problem on their dime, and I will pay for any necessary parts. Does that not sound fair to you?
If they weren't certain that the lpfp was my problem, they should have said that. I would not have taken the $1200 gamble in hopes that was the problem. I would have gone to another shop who had confidence in fixing the issue.

[MIKYZZ4]

Unfortunately for you, I also believe they OWE you nothing.
they have received $1200, for diagnostic fees + R&R of new pump,
and that was performed correctly, so technically they OWE you nothing further!

I'm sorry for the problems with your vehicle,
but a choice of a more experienced tech/shop or dealership service department may be next step.

[craig3x]

Unfortunately for you, I also believe they OWE you nothing.
they have received $1200, for diagnostic fees + R&R of new pump,
and that was performed correctly, so technically they OWE you nothing further!

But I took my car in to fix a specific problem. They misdiagnosed it and $1200 later, I still have the exact same problem. Sounds like you may own/work at a repair shop.

[ross1]

Unfortunately for you, I also believe they OWE you nothing.
they have received $1200, for diagnostic fees + R&R of new pump,
and that was performed correctly, so technically they OWE you nothing further!

If the customer walked in and said " change my LP fuel pump" I'd agree with you.

If I understand the situation correctly the shop diagnosed the problem and the customer accepted their apparently incorrect diagnosis to the tune of $1200.
An expert's fee was charged(and then some) and they are responsible for their mistake.
Auto repair, unlike medicine IS an exact science. If you want to charge big $$ for your time you had better know what you are doing AND be accountable when you make a mistake.
I'm with the OP although I don't think he'll get the satisfaction he deserves.

[craig3x]

If the customer walked in and said " change my LP fuel pump" I'd agree with you.

If I understand the situation correctly the shop diagnosed the problem and the customer accepted their apparently incorrect diagnosis to the tune of $1200.
An expert's fee was charged(and then some) and they are responsible for their mistake.
Auto repair, unlike medicine IS an exact science. If you want to charge big $$ for your time you had better know what you are doing AND be accountable when you make a mistake.
I'm with the OP although I don't think he'll get the satisfaction he deserves.

Correct Ross1.

[MIKYZZ4]

No, unfortunately that is not the career path I chose,
but perform diagnostics' and repairs for friends and family,
since I attended an automotive mechanics technician program as a teen,
and still enjoy wrenching on all my own vehicles.

My level of diagnostics equipment and expertise is simple,
an independent specialist shop is more advanced,
followed by the dealership,
which has access to the latest,most advanced diagnostic equipment,
and service bulletins available.

[shadowpuck]

yes, if we're being told the full and complete story (i'm not implying anything, just stating the obvious as i wasn't there) - then, it seems like the shop misdiagnosed the issue and should be more forthcoming in working on making that right.

that said - some shops are better at that than others.

i have first hand experience - i took a shop to court over a misdiagnosis that was a considerable sum of money. it's one of the reasons i became very interested in DIY and learning more about cars.

the key point here is if they misdiagnosed the car, and they are not proving easy to work with on the follow up, what are the odds they'll perform the second go around fairly and with full effort?
i think most of us just cut to the chase here and suggested finding another shop/getting a second opinion.

[craig3x]

i have first hand experience - i took a shop to court over a misdiagnosis that was a considerable sum of money.

Did you win?

[shadowpuck]

Did you win?

yup.

don't recommend it except as an absolute last resort after every option has been exhausted.

[bmwdirtracer]

Yeah, but.... The car had a low pressure fuel pump warning, and a code for the same. The shop said it failed the pressure test, and recommended LPFP, plus the sensor. Only the pump was done, and now the pump passes that test. OP did not replace the recommended sensor. Of course, when a low pressure fuel pump fails, it often kills the HPFP, which, by the way, sometimes kills the injectors.

By all means, take them to court! You don't have a leg to stand on. The shop had proof of a bad LPFP (the code and the pressure test). So they have proof that they recommended the correct part....except of course that the OP did not follow all of their recommendation. And of course, it's not the shop's fault if the old, dying LPFP killed the HPFP during its death throes.

{EDIT: Personally, as I said, I'd have tested with ISTA, which most independent shops don't have. I have a suspicion that the Fuel pump control module is the real culprit, because of the voltage codes....but hey, I'm just a tech, and I'm wrong a lot....just like everyone else. That's why we do what tests we can, and follow the best answer available, to serve the customer. Probably better to just go the safe route, and ask for the entire system....}

[shadowpuck]

i should clarify - i'm certainly not encouraging legal action; in my case, that came well down the road after all avenues were exhausted and i had solid proof that my vehicle was misdiagnosed.

i also want to clarify - i definitely do not understand this vehicle's issue; i play in the realm of e36/e46.....
i was basing my thoughts off the point that the vehicle came in for a problem, was diagnosed, and now exhibits the same or similar problem after the repair.