RM European Auto Parts
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 29

Thread: My E83 sounds like an old carbureted car when starting

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jun 2018
    Location
    Baltimore, MD
    Posts
    13
    My Cars
    06 X3

    My E83 sounds like an old carbureted car when starting (now with video)

    2006 X3, 3.0 with auto trans and about 85k miles. All stock. Runs and drives flawlessly and driven every day (by my wife) about 40-50 miles. No CEL or codes to check. Well maintained and checked over approx. weekly (by me) to keep it in proper running condition.

    BUT

    On a cold start, the car struggles to start. The engine will buck around and make all the angry, reluctant noises of an old carbureted engine that hasn't started in a while. After it starts, it runs smooth as eggs. No noticeable loss of power or rough idle. It feels just like it should.

    Every once in a while it will fail to start on the first try and/or will go into a sort of "limp mode" but that's only been like 2 or 3 times in the past two months. And as soon as you turn it off and on again, it's fine. And it hasn't (yet) refused to start or left us stranded.

    Other relevant info:

    Starter was replaced about 1.5 years ago by Firestone. Probably not OEM (I believe they use Borg Warner?) but it cranks fine. Maybe not quite as strong as it should, but you can hear it cranking quite well. Definitely doesn't sound lazy or frozen.

    The battery is a BMW OEM of unknown vintage (at least 3 years old, as we've had the car that long and haven't changed it) that holds a charge well, but not super great. After a drive, it'll be about 80 percent charger according to my multi-meter. Haven't load tested it.

    I replaced the spark plugs last month since we're nearing 90k. I change the oil every 6 months with full synthetic oil and filters from BAVauto. I also stay on top of things like air filters and other fluid levels rather carefully. Our cars are our babies.

    BMW mechanics at my local dealership, upon watching a video (https://youtu.be/SThhAR2c_NY), said they "don't think it's the starter but would have to keep it overnight and charge $150/hr to recreate it" before giving an opinion. So eff those guys.

    Any ideas on what to do to fix this? Think it's the (probably cheap/weak) starter Firestone installed? The less-than-new OEM battery? Fuel injectors that need to be cleaned after 90k miles? An old, gummed up fuel filter or fuel pump from 2006? Some sort of blockage in the air filter that would provide a convenient excuse to install a CAI? Or something entirely different that I'm blanking on?

    I have access to tools and can turn a wrench and follow directions, but I just don't have the experience with these cars to diagnose.

    Any help and suggestions would be greatly appreciated! Thank you in advance.
    Last edited by Spraypaint; 06-22-2018 at 02:14 PM. Reason: Added video of issue

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    2,108
    My Cars
    1974 2002, 2009 128i
    The starter has nothing to do with how the engine runs; it just turns the engine to initiate rotation so as to allow combustion in the cylinders to take over without having to overcome inertia.

    The simple fact is that you need to have to car plugged into a proper BMW-specific diagnostic computer or scanner and have the codes read. If this is happening frequently there are likely stored fault codes; these will not be picked up by a generic OBD2 scanner. Take it to the dealer or a BMW indy and have them do it. Will it cost money? Yes. Their time is worth something, as is their equipment. Good diagnostics may seem expensive, until you value them against the cost of throwing parts at a problem and having the car down repeatedly to do so, not to mention the frustration of not knowing and the potential of it getting worse.





    Life's tough. It's tougher when you're stupid.
    -John Wayne

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    St. Joseph, Mo.
    Posts
    3,000
    My Cars
    95 m3+, 03 ZHP, Mk4 Tdi
    Quote Originally Posted by 02Pilot View Post
    The starter has nothing to do with how the engine runs; it just turns the engine to initiate rotation so as to allow combustion in the cylinders to take over without having to overcome inertia.

    The simple fact is that you need to have to car plugged into a proper BMW-specific diagnostic computer or scanner and have the codes read. If this is happening frequently there are likely stored fault codes; these will not be picked up by a generic OBD2 scanner. Take it to the dealer or a BMW indy and have them do it. Will it cost money? Yes. Their time is worth something, as is their equipment. Good diagnostics may seem expensive, until you value them against the cost of throwing parts at a problem and having the car down repeatedly to do so, not to mention the frustration of not knowing and the potential of it getting worse.
    yup, exactly....
    '95 325iS - auto to manual swap done!

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    Aberdeen, NC (yes, again)
    Posts
    23,672
    My Cars
    E39M5, E500 4WD
    Yep, all that. And have the intake system smoke tested with a professional smoke machine, while you're at that BMW shop.....

    Chris Powell
    Racer and Instructor since, well. decades, ok?
    Master Auto Tech, owner of German Motors of Aberdeen
    BMWCCA 274412
    German Motors is hiring ! https://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/s...1#post30831471

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Arlington, VA
    Posts
    9,933
    My Cars
    2018 BMW M240i
    Try www.bimrs.org to find a shop specializing in bimmers. Also, check the website of the National Capital Chapter of the BMWCCA for recommendations.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jun 2018
    Location
    Baltimore, MD
    Posts
    13
    My Cars
    06 X3
    I don't mean this to sound ungrateful for the input, but this is a very different experience than I've ever had on car forums. I come from the world of Hondas, Minis, and Kawasakis. No one on there would immediately recommend hitting up a dealer right away. Are BMWs that different?

    Since owning this vehicle, I've done all the regular maintenance without issue (oil, filter, cabin/air intake filters). Heck, I even replaced the rear driveshaft myself when it started squeaking while in reverse. I didn't get to change the brakes myself because I was away from home when they needed to get done, but they don't look any different from any other brake system I've worked on.

    Is there a code reader I could get online to pull this info myself? Are there fuel/intake items I can pull and check or clean before I just go pay a diagnosis fee? I'm used to taking cars in for necessity, not as a first response. Is this not the norm for these cars or just for this community? Should I make this post elsewhere for a more DIY-oriented response?

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    2,108
    My Cars
    1974 2002, 2009 128i
    There are two kinds of car problems: those that are obvious, and those that require diagnosis. You have the latter. So your choices are as follows: attempt to diagnose it yourself by manually inspecting the intake system, fuel system, and ignition system, hoping that you will discover the cause of the problem, or pay someone to plug in the specialized equipment necessary to pinpoint the issue quickly. A subset of the second option is to purchase a BMW-specific scanner yourself; ECS Tuning has a good one for around $200.

    I'm comfortable saying that no one on this forum with any real experience working on these cars is going to try to accurately diagnose an intermittent transient running issue over the internet. While this may differ from other car forums, it also differs in that you have a much higher concentration of skilled techs here. You may get different answers here, but that's not a bug, it's a feature.





    Life's tough. It's tougher when you're stupid.
    -John Wayne

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    St. Joseph, Mo.
    Posts
    3,000
    My Cars
    95 m3+, 03 ZHP, Mk4 Tdi
    Quote Originally Posted by 02Pilot View Post
    There are two kinds of car problems: those that are obvious, and those that require diagnosis. You have the latter. So your choices are as follows: attempt to diagnose it yourself by manually inspecting the intake system, fuel system, and ignition system, hoping that you will discover the cause of the problem, or pay someone to plug in the specialized equipment necessary to pinpoint the issue quickly. A subset of the second option is to purchase a BMW-specific scanner yourself; ECS Tuning has a good one for around $200.

    I'm comfortable saying that no one on this forum with any real experience working on these cars is going to try to accurately diagnose an intermittent transient running issue over the internet. While this may differ from other car forums, it also differs in that you have a much higher concentration of skilled techs here. You may get different answers here, but that's not a bug, it's a feature.
    absolutely spot on, again.
    '95 325iS - auto to manual swap done!

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jun 2018
    Location
    Baltimore, MD
    Posts
    13
    My Cars
    06 X3
    Maybe I'll invest in that scanner. That's only 50 bucks more than an hour at the dealership and then I'd have it. Presumably it would work on my Mini as well.

    I guess I can infer that, since people aren't coming out of the woodwork to tell me to check this, that, or the other that this isn't a common issue. All our other issues (like the squeaky driveshaft) had a lot of threads about it that steered me in the right direction, luckily.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    Chicagoland area
    Posts
    4,372
    My Cars
    EXOTICS
    Well then, here are some options,
    concerning diagnostic tools,

    For a good BMW scan tool, I feel you have 3 options:

    • Foxwell nt520:http://www.foxwelltool.com/search/?q=NT520
    • Carly for BMW:http://www.mycarly.com/product/bmw-app/
    • INPA software for BMW: Do a search on bimmerforums

      I recommended them in no specific order,
      as selection is based more on preference.

      INPA is an excellent diagnostic tool,
      but is a proprietary BMW factory tool.
      So all available copies are technically bootleg versions.
      This requires a copy of the INPA software downloaded into a laptop computer,
      along with the correct cables for your particular model of BMW.
      I recommend this only for computer geeks, or the mostly computer savvy among us.

      For an affordable standalone unit, Foxwell nt510(nt520 Updated version) is the preferred unit, along with required cables.
      It can scan for BMW codes, among other things, as it can communicate with all BMW modules.

      Carly for BMW is an APP,
      and as such, requires a smartphone,
      along with a connection to the OBD2 port in your vehicle,
      supplied either by cable or wireless connection via Bluetooth dongle


    Update: Now the full version is $74/year on a recurring subscription
    Last edited by MIKYZZ4; 07-12-2018 at 05:25 PM. Reason: UPDATE

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    St. Joseph, Mo.
    Posts
    3,000
    My Cars
    95 m3+, 03 ZHP, Mk4 Tdi
    yeah, this diagnosis can go any number of ways. we've simply learned that it can often be the shorter path to start with diagnostics performed by those with the tools and knowledge. so, we make that recommendation often as a starting point - in fact, it's even mentioned in the "care and feeding" of this subforum.

    at any rate.

    don't worry about a CAI - the car came with one from the factory.

    i'd start with reading all codes with a BMW diag tool/computer - then, i'd want to smoke test the engine and look for leaks. since its an m54 engine, i'd probably clean the throttle body and the idle air control valve. of course, i'd also consider having a qualified independent BMW shop look at it too.
    '95 325iS - auto to manual swap done!

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    Chicagoland area
    Posts
    4,372
    My Cars
    EXOTICS
    I'm going to go ahead and speculate,
    as I think you may have a problem with leaky injectors.
    Perform this test:
    In the morning or after you have let the vehicle sit overnight,
    remove sparkplugs - Do you notice a strong fuel odor?

    I'm not specifically familiar with an X3, but with the M54 engine in your vehicle,
    so I am going to assume your specific vehicle model contains an IACV.
    Remove and clean as it may be sticking upon startup.
    Since you have to remove the rubber intake boot to access that valve,
    you can squeeze and inspect the boot for cracks/tears.
    And while you're there , clean the MAF with CRC MAF Cleaner.

    Since you emphasized that you prefer to DIY,
    inspect your fuel regulator - either located at the fuel rail or fuel filter
    for either damaged /missing hoses, or wet fuel in the hoses, indicating a torn diaphragm.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Arlington, VA
    Posts
    9,933
    My Cars
    2018 BMW M240i
    The fuel rail has a fuel pressure test valve. The test valve’s cap is item 2 in the link. The pressure has to be at least 50psi at all times. However, I doubt the problem is caused by low fuel pressure as it occurring when the engine is in the “open loop” mode. The engine computer (DME in BMWspeak) uses an overly rich fuel/air mixture when in the open loop mode. This is done to get the cats up to temperature quickly. The DME runs the secondary air pump (SAP) during this time. This pump sends air into the exhaust manifolds to burn any unburned gas in the exhaust. This protects the cats from being damaged by raw fuel. It’s almost like there’s a huge vacuum leak only when the engine is in the open loop mode.

    Has the DME software ever been updated?

    http://www.realoem.com/bmw/enUS/show...diagId=13_0900

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Jun 2018
    Location
    Baltimore, MD
    Posts
    13
    My Cars
    06 X3
    Now this is some interesting advice! I will admit that it goes a bit over my head, but nothing I can't do some research on. I'll start looking into what it takes to inspect/clean/replace these items.

    I couldn't honestly tell you whether or not the software has ever been updated. The car didn't come with any service records (we're the second owners since 50k miles, purchased about 3 years ago) but I don't think we've ever taken it in for an update unless they just do that sort of thing when you have it inspected, which we did about a year ago or so.

    Would be very interesting if this is a fuel mapping issue that could be solved with a software update. Definitely not what I'm used to.

    Then again, the bit about "open loop" mode hits home. The car ONLY seems to struggle upon starting when cold. At all other times and in all other ways it performs admirably. So if there's some sort of warm-up mode or something that may collect fuel or moisture while sitting that makes some sense.

    I will say that when I changed the spark plugs not long ago I did NOT notice any fuel smell. Doesn't mean it wasn't there, though.

    Thanks for the info, folks!

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Jun 2018
    Location
    Baltimore, MD
    Posts
    13
    My Cars
    06 X3
    I was able to get the video from my wife of the car struggling to start. If I can upload it, might that be helpful with potential troubleshooting? I'll try and get it up here tomorrow.

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Jun 2018
    Location
    Baltimore, MD
    Posts
    13
    My Cars
    06 X3
    Now with video! (In case it helps.)

    https://youtu.be/SThhAR2c_NY

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    Chicagoland area
    Posts
    4,372
    My Cars
    EXOTICS

    Disregard my previous diagnostic recommendations -NOT NEEDED

    Additional information very helpful,
    my recommended diagnostics not needed,
    not after the information provided by that video!

    Sounds like a faulty starter pinion gear engagement.
    Remove starter,bench test starter,
    paying careful attention to pinion gear teeth & engagement,
    along with inspection of damaged flywheel teeth,
    as I fully suspect that is where that grinding noise is emanating from.
    Remove Crankshaft position sensor if it can help with a direct view of flywheel tooth damage.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Hopefully,
    only a defective starter,
    and no damage done to flywheel.

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Jun 2018
    Location
    Baltimore, MD
    Posts
    13
    My Cars
    06 X3
    Interesting. I would not have thought of it being an issue that potentially affects the flywheel. Question: does the fact that this only happens when the car is starting cold affect your diagnosis?

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    Aberdeen, NC (yes, again)
    Posts
    23,672
    My Cars
    E39M5, E500 4WD
    Yeah, the video certainly says there's a starter problem. My first guess would be that the starter is not correctly installed. A Firestone guy wouldn't know the dangers and tricks. Firstly, your X3 could be an M54 or an N52 engine. They're very different, which would be important for any engine diagnosis, but not so much for the starter....except of course that the Firestone guy might have installed, say, an M54 starter on an N52, which wouldn't be good.

    Much more likely though, would be that a Firestone guy didn't know about the dowel pin which joins the starter and the transmission. If he bent this pin, or didn't clean and sand and grease it, before installing the new starter....OR, he pulled the starter in with the bolts....it's probably misaligned. That would certainly explain the horrible noises.

    With a good flashlight, and a careful eye, you can likely see this, from underneath the car. It will not be easy, on a 4WD vehicle, because you'll be peering up past the driveshaft. Perhaps you can see it from above, with a mirror on a stick....especially if you have an M54 engine, rather than the N52.

    It's worth noting that if the guy put the starter in crooked, the shop owes you a starter, and a flexplate (flywheel)....and a serious apology.

    Chris Powell
    Racer and Instructor since, well. decades, ok?
    Master Auto Tech, owner of German Motors of Aberdeen
    BMWCCA 274412
    German Motors is hiring ! https://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/s...1#post30831471

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Jun 2018
    Location
    Baltimore, MD
    Posts
    13
    My Cars
    06 X3
    Ok, sounds like you really have a handle on these things. I initially suspected it was the starter about 2 months ago when it started happening. Never crossed my mind that the starter itself might be fine but that it may be improperly installed. I figured it could be the wrong one, or possibly just going bad already. But the intermittent nature of it had started me thinking it was something else, possibly air/fuel related. But your explanation make sense.

    I looked up a walkthrough of the starter install. Seems like a total pain in the ass, but not so much that it can't be done at home with a little patience and the right tools. To me, it seems like it would probably be worth simply replacing the unit if I'm going through all that trouble with an OEM one. That way I'm not doing the work twice.

    Would you say this is something I need to fix asap to avoid possibly damaging other parts, or can it wait a bit while I buy the parts/tools and find the time?

  21. #21
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    Aberdeen, NC (yes, again)
    Posts
    23,672
    My Cars
    E39M5, E500 4WD
    Is your valve cover cover black, or grey?

    On all BMWs except 4WD's, I always do the starter from below. BMW always says to do them from the top, after removing the manifold. On most of the 4WD vehicles, the front driveshaft is in the way. However: Alldata (a professional source used by all independent shops) shows your X3 as being done from below, in only 1.9 hours.

    I really don't remember, because I work on so many cars, but I guarantee I'd TRY to do it from below first, ALWAYS. From below, 2 hours is reasonable; from above, figure at least 5 hours, and you'll likely cause intake system leaks which will cause more nightmares.

    Still, if the starter has truly been mounted at an angle all this time, there's a very good likelihood that it's damaged the ring gear on the flexplate.

    Get underneath with a good flashlight and look upwards, to where the starter mounts on the bellhousing. Can you see the dowel pin? You should not be able to.

    Chris Powell
    Racer and Instructor since, well. decades, ok?
    Master Auto Tech, owner of German Motors of Aberdeen
    BMWCCA 274412
    German Motors is hiring ! https://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/s...1#post30831471

  22. #22
    Join Date
    Jun 2018
    Location
    Baltimore, MD
    Posts
    13
    My Cars
    06 X3
    Thanks for this info. I'll get under and look next chance I get. Fingers crossed.

    I read online that below is the way to go. Seems a pain in the ass involving long extensions and wobble sockets but such is BMW life.

  23. #23
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    Aberdeen, NC (yes, again)
    Posts
    23,672
    My Cars
    E39M5, E500 4WD
    You think THAT'S a P.I.T.A.? Have you ever removed the intake?

    Chris Powell
    Racer and Instructor since, well. decades, ok?
    Master Auto Tech, owner of German Motors of Aberdeen
    BMWCCA 274412
    German Motors is hiring ! https://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/s...1#post30831471

  24. #24
    Join Date
    Jun 2018
    Location
    Baltimore, MD
    Posts
    13
    My Cars
    06 X3
    Late edit: Double post by mistake. See below.
    Last edited by Spraypaint; 10-03-2018 at 04:43 PM. Reason: Double post fix

  25. #25
    Join Date
    Jun 2018
    Location
    Baltimore, MD
    Posts
    13
    My Cars
    06 X3
    Sorry if this is a repost but I tried to respond and I'm not sure where it went.

    Got these two photos when under the car today.

    https://ibb.co/bPm11d
    https://ibb.co/fHZogd

    Starter looks to be mounted right and I can't see a dowel pin. (Moved that charcoal filter aside just to look and take the pic.)

    Teeth of flywheel look fine most of the way around. Just like in the photo. (We rotated it around slowly with a screwdriver to inspect.)

    Next steps seems to me to be load testing battery and/or replacing starter with a new OEM unit.

    Any other ideas besides? Car is running well, throwing no codes, and only struggling to start when cold.

    Thanks for the help so far!

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. funny sounds when I turn my car off
    By vxnvgs9 in forum 1991 - 1999 (E36)
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 08-06-2004, 11:15 AM
  2. Clunking sound coming from rear of car
    By dave is cool in forum 1992 - 1999 M3 (E36)
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 06-17-2004, 09:21 AM
  3. Replies: 6
    Last Post: 06-05-2004, 01:22 AM
  4. How fast are old muscle cars?
    By count_schemula in forum Kill Stories
    Replies: 12
    Last Post: 02-17-2003, 03:13 PM
  5. Very werid sound from front of the car.. Cat area!
    By IMAGE&STYLE in forum 1991 - 1999 (E36)
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 06-29-2002, 04:33 PM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •