Z4 Roof issue

[tekoo]

Ok great. Now the relays are out of the question and suspicion is higher with the bolts.

Do me a favor;

1-purchase a BMW soft top repair kit with new bolts and washers
2-Uninstall the stowage lock and remove from vehicle

Please let me know results when you test the roof with stowage lock COMPLETELY GONE!

DONT PUSH ON, APPLY PRESSURE OR FORCE ANYTHING! We want the roof to spontaneously behave the correct way! Pushing will only do harm as it will bend the frame or introduce play in the joints/hinges of the soft top.

[celticrider]

I’m not getting too excited yet.
Didn’t really do anything other than switching botand torqing them.
The lock mechanism, I’m not following.
The instructions are to replace, were you saying misalignment?
Not getting ahead of myself, just trying to figure out next step if this thing stays working.

[tekoo]

1-REMOVE THE STOWAGE LOCK and order a repair kit today

2-Retest the roof with the lock completely removed and let me know the findings

3-OTHERWISE leave everything as is and continue to use the roof multiple times daily till the new repair kit arrives. (We want to confirm the effect of switching the bolts is long lasting)!


I want you to completely remove the stowage lock out of the vehicle (Please do not try to adjust it or fix it's alignment).
The stowage lock is attached with 2 screws. You have to remove the screws and pull the lock out.

[tekoo]

I’m not getting too excited yet.
Didn’t really do anything other than switching botand torqing them.
The lock mechanism, I’m not following.
The instructions are to replace, were you saying misalignment?
Not getting ahead of myself, just trying to figure out next step if this thing stays working.

The bolt structure is probably defective and or it was over-torqued. This obliterates the holes of the banjo bolt and prevents normal flow and pressure of hydraulic fluid from pump to the lines to the hinges.

[tekoo]

The instructions in the link I sent you are meant to show how to 'adjust' the stowage lock. I provided you with the link just to show you what the stowage lock is and how it is secured in place to the vehicle.
However instead of 'adjusting' the lock (as the link instructs you), I want you to completely uninstall and remove the lock entirely out of the vehicle.
The lock is located underneath the plastic trim of the rear central console; on top of the wall that separates the trunk from interior of the vehicle (right smack in the center)
Here are few real images for the stowage lock and the 2 torx bolts you need to take out to remove the lock.


lock 4.JPGlock 1.JPGlock 2.JPGlock 5.JPGlock 7.JPG

[celticrider]

I’ve looked for that kit, only thing I’ve found is a box that says hydraulic kit?
BMW parts guiare clueless
They won’t try to find out what is is something unless they have in front of them.
Second
If the lock is disabled, will the roof not tend to want to raise slightly with wind, and the light will stay flashing?
Just asking as I don’t know, but I assume that.

- - - Updated - - -

Will do.
Thanks again for all the help getting me this far.
May get away relatively lucky

[tekoo]

I’ve looked for that kit, only thing I’ve found is a box that says

hydraulic kit

?
BMW parts guiare clueless
They won’t try to find out what is is something unless they have in front of them.
Second

If the lock is disabled, will the roof not tend to want to raise slightly with wind, and the light will stay flashing?

Just asking as I don’t know, but I assume that.

- - - Updated - - -

Will do.
Thanks again for all the help getting me this far.
May get away relatively lucky

1- Soft Top Hydraulic Repair Kit -> BMW Part # 54347114081

85557_x600.jpg

https://www.ebay.com/p/OEM-Genuine-B...081/1490978189
https://www.eeuroparts.com/Parts/614...t-54347114081/
https://parts.bmwofsouthatlanta.com/...347114081.html
https://www.ecstuning.com/b-genuine-...t/54347114081/

2- The stowage lock has been discontinued by BMW from Z4 E85 vehicles. My Z4 has no stowage lock and has absolutely no problems with wind or what not. As you can see in the image below (and the link) the BMW technical instructions are to remove the lock completely from vehicles with roof stowage problems (text highlighted in red).

lock 8.JPG

https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/e...ft-top/30CZvkx

3-The stowage lock has absolutely no direct connection with the flashing light.

[celticrider]

Thanks
Good to know about the lock
That will eliminate one issue

[tekoo]

The stowage lock is hiding underneath the plastic trim of rear center trom.

Is your rear center storage compartment interior plastic trim removed?

If not, you can follow this instructions in the following link to remove it:

1-Remove this cover to find the stowage lock (see image; link for instructions underneath)

lock 9.JPG

https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/e...ft-top/C00dTRk

More instructions for removing additional parts of the plastic trim if needed:

https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/e...nsoles/GApGmva
https://www.zpost.com/forums/showthr...6#post19467177
https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/e...ft-top/GEwlM50
https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/e...ft-top/GBiHghE

[tekoo]

Here is a BMW document with troubleshooting instructions that were specifically written to address your EXACT SAME COMPLAINT:

x1.JPG

1-Convertible top does not lock in lowered position in convertible top compartment.
2-The indicator lamp for the convertible top starts to flash while driving.
3-The convertible top stops 1 to 2 cm before reaching the end position (nominal position). The locking element does not engage in the support.
4-The convertible top reaches the end position but the locking element is positioned above the support bracket and is not engaged.

https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/e...ft-top/3OnQhYr

IF REMOVING THE STOWAGE LOCK WAS NOT SUFFICIENT WE MAY HAVE TO REMOVE THE X-HOOKs ALSO (SEE LINK FOR INSTRUCTIONS)

x2.JPG

https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/e...ft-top/30CZvkx

[celticrider]

So at this point should I leave everything as is and keep operating the roof like you suggested.
I can do the lock mechanism any time as long as the roof keeps working.
If it keeps working with me trying over the next bit then order the kit?
No sense in replacing if not the issue, won’t know that until further use. However that is all I’ve really changed so far.

[tekoo]

My suggestions are clear:

REMOVE THE STOWAGE LOCK IMMEDIATELY

I spent soo MUCH time explaining to you that:

1-The stowage lock will destroy the motor/pump if you don't remove it
2-The stowage lock is not needed and has been discontinued
3-The stowage lock is what is causing the roof to stop short before reaching its end position and the flashing light

I have attached all relevant and supporting BMW recommendations and step by step instructions to remove the lock!

Really not sure what else to do! If after all of this you still don't want to remove the lock, its your choice. However please don't come back complain and ask for help.

[celticrider]

I have no problem removing the lock, but I am simply going by your suggested leaving everything as is ,and using the roof daily to verify that it is going to continue to work and the bolts were the issue

[celticrider]

I will remove the lock today for sure, just thought if I don’t push on the roof to lock that would be sufficient for trying purposes only.
I had every intention of removing the lock assembly, I thought as long as I didn’t force the roof to lock it wouldn’t damage anything

[tekoo]

I will remove the lock today for sure, just thought if I don’t push on the roof to lock that would be sufficient for trying purposes only.

I had every intention of removing the lock assembly,

I thought as long as I didn’t force the roof to lock it wouldn’t damage anything

This is the exact same defective thought process that got you in trouble the first place! Now that we spent so much effort to finally get you a second chance at this, you are repeating the exact same mistake all over again and electing to go with a half repair. You are now back to square one when you purchased the vehicle and the roof was functional but it also wouldn't lock. You ended up living with the problem for years because the dealer was '4 hours away' and the roof progressively deteriorated from there until the hinge finally cracked and leaked.

I have no problem removing the lock, but I am simply going by your suggested leaving everything as is ,and using the roof daily to verify that it is going to continue to work and the bolts were the issue

This is not what I said. You clearly ignored my first two points in the post (see post below) and close to 15 additional posts afterwards with supportive instructions and material to help you remove the stowage lock!

1-REMOVE THE STOWAGE LOCK and order a repair kit today

2-Retest the roof with the lock completely removed and let me know the findings

3-OTHERWISE leave everything as is and continue to use the roof multiple times daily till the new repair kit arrives. (We want to confirm the effect of switching the bolts is long lasting)!


I want you to completely remove the stowage lock out of the vehicle (Please do not try to adjust it or fix it's alignment).
The stowage lock is attached with 2 screws. You have to remove the screws and pull the lock out.

My suggestions are clear. I said get new bolts, remove the stowage lock, retest the roof without the lock and OTHERWISE (aka OUTSIDE of these suggested tasks) leave everything else as is (do not uninstall the motor/pump again for now so we can continue to test the roof and tweak it while waiting for repair kit to arrive)!!

I also clearly explained to you before the lock is a separate unit from the roof and the motor, so removing it doesn't interfere with the testing of the roof/motor! If anything, it supports the testing/function of these units as it removes the mechanical obstruction which is currently blocking the roof from completing its travel path and reaching the end position.


The 'roof non locking in full open position and red light flashing' is termed (soft top misfolding) and has 3-4 possible SERIOUS causes to it that require IMMEDIATE attention to prevent the roof material, main links, frame and hinges from deteriorating and cracking. Stowage lock is ONLY ONE of these possible 3-4 causes. If uninstalling the stowage lock did not resolve the issue, then we still have to investigate the remaining possible causes and rule them out one by one till the problem is fixed. If you decide to ignore the problem the fabric of the soft top, hinges or one of the roof's main links can snap under the increased mechanical tension. Something will have to give!

[tekoo]

We are coming out of our way to help you achieve the best outcome. If you are satisfied with a half fix; that's fine its your choice! You are the one that will continue to spend hundreds of additional dollars on motor, hinges, frame, fabric or even complete new roof as things progressively deteriorate again.

[celticrider]

I do not want half a fix.
I thought if you put a suggestion forward it was an option, guess I was mistaken

[Clearancediver]

“When it goes down, sounds like it has power and when reaches down position, the motor stops and light is out.
It’s about 1/2” from being locked I assume by its position when down.
I don’t want to push on it as you said”

I had that happen once... try this: start to raise top just a little bit (6” or so) and stop... now lower top again. It might now go down further into its proper position.

I attributed my success with “resetting” the down position into the cars memory. Not unlike resetting anti-trap sensor/setting on window...

Not going to hurt anything by doing this a couple of times in a row if necessary.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[tekoo]

I had that happen once ... try this: start to raise top just a little bit (6” or so) and stop... now lower top again. It might now go down further into its proper position.

I attributed my success with “resetting” the down position into the cars memory. Not unlike resetting anti-trap sensor/setting on window...

Not going to hurt anything by doing this a couple of times in a row if necessary.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

What happened to you ONCE was a convertible top module performance glitch that simply never occurred again. What he has is a persistent mechanical blockage for YEARS that prevents the roof from landing in its proper end-position EVERY TIME. His defect has a clear diagnosis, specific causes to rule out and algorithm to follow according to BMW manufacture recommendations!

[tekoo]

I had that happen once

... try this: start to raise top just a little bit (6” or so) and stop... now lower top again. It might now go down further into its proper position.

I attributed my success with “resetting” the down position into the cars memory. Not unlike resetting anti-trap sensor/setting on window...

Not going to hurt anything by doing this a couple of times in a row if necessary.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

What happened to you ONCE was a convertible top module performance glitch that simply never occurred again. What he has is a persistent mechanical blockage for YEARS that prevents the roof from landing in its proper end-position EVERY TIME. His defect has a clear diagnosis, specific causes to rule out and algorithm to follow according to BMW manufacture recommendations!

Also FYI the roof sensors are physically directly attached to the hinges of the roof and measure the hinge expansion distance from nominal position to estimate the accurate roof position and give the motor the order to stop. What you do has no role whatsoever in the hinge/sensor resetting or performance!

[celticrider]

In my particular problem.is it possible that this locking issue took out the original motor/pump and possibly the hinge starting to leak?

[tekoo]

I do not want half a fix.
I thought if you put a suggestion forward it was an option, guess I was mistaken

If you want a full fix you will have to:

1-Resolve the issue causing roof stowage blockage to prevent further damage to roof mechanics.
2-Install brand new banjo bolts and copper washers that have not been previously used/crushed and are still to manufacturer specs.


According to your post on the other forum you are concerned about the pressure in the hydraulic circuit and 'ballooning the cylinders'.

z4 forum 6.JPG

Well guess what, this pump is designed as a NON-ADJUSTABLE, NON-SERVICEABLE unit that can only work at ONE MAXIMUM SPEED (motor's maximum spinning speed), and push hydraulic fluid out at its MAXIMUM FLOW RATE (that is pre-determined by the 1- caliber of the micro channels the hydraulic fluid passes through inside the pump, 2-pump speed, and 3- viscosity of the hydraulic fluid you are using).

Since In normal circumstances all of the above mentioned 3 factors are constant and non adjustable; the pressure generated by the pump is usually CONSISTENT with the MAXIMUM the pump can produce! The valves you were trying to adjust are not output pressure setting valves as you think; they are more of safety pressure relief/venting valves (if you pour fluid into these valves it does not come out of the output channels of the pump where the banjo bolts fit as would be expected from an output valve; instead, the poured fluid just stays in the valve and does not go anywhere!). The adjustment screws you saw inside these valves are probably there to control the size of the air bubbles that are entering the fluid reservoir to prevent hydraulic fluid overflow and spilling!

And regardless what the pressure is that leaves the pump, once the hydraulic fluid passes through the manufacturer calibrated FIXED-SIZE BANJO BOLT HOLES it conforms to a new pressure that is determined by the size and resistance of the banjo bolt openings and the structure of the bolts (the more straight the bolt is the lower the resistance).

So if the BANJO bolts where slightly bent (from multiple prior use and over-torqueing) or the size of the banjo bolt's entry hole is not up to specs (due to prior jamming of the bolts' end against the inner frame of the pump) or the side holes of the bolt are partially covered by the overlapping copper washers due to over-torqueing which pushes all the washers and circular heads back towards the head of the bolts); the output pressure of the pump gets significantly altered!

Re-adjusting the bolts' torque or location helps reestablish the fluid flow through the bolts but DOES NOT REVERSE ANY STRUCTURAL DAMAGE THAT HAVE ALREADY ENSUED! In other words now we got the flow back through the bolts but we have no idea if the pressure is still up to specs as there are no guarantees the bolts have no structural defect!

THIS IS WHY PURCHASING NEW BOLTS AND WASHERS ARE IN YOUR BEST INTEREST; EVEN IF SWAPPING THE BOLTS WAS SUCCESSFUL! THIS IS ALSO THE REASON BMW INSTRUCTS TO REPLACE THE BOLTS ONCE UNINSTALLED!

zbolt.JPG

[celticrider]

When I referred to ballooning the hinge cylinders that was what was told to me by the company that rebuilt the cylinders,not my idea.
It is coincidental however that both these valves are directly inline with the output ports?
I realize it is hard to determine what any of these actually are when they are not meant to be repaired and are a throw away , I have the lock removed and ordering the kit Monday
Thanks for your advice.

[tekoo]

When I referred to ballooning the hinge cylinders that was what was told to me by the company that rebuilt the cylinders,not my idea.

It is coincidental however that both these valves are directly inline with the output ports?

I realize it is hard to determine what any of these actually are when they are not meant to be repaired and are a throw away , I have the lock removed and ordering the kit Monday
Thanks for your advice.

They are not inline with the output port ONLY. They are inline with BOTH the INPUT and OUTPUT ports which supports more the function and location of a RELIEF VALVE! How do you think the hydraulic fluid returns to the pump? Takes an UBER?

[cdsweet]

If it is still installed in stock location, it is inside a plastic sleeve and down and inside the side of the car, there is no way you can add/monitor oil levels with it there.
I decided when I replaced my pump that if I ever had to do it again, I would install the motor in boot of car like some have done so there is access without removing the top.