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Thread: Z4 Roof issue

  1. #1
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    Z4 Roof issue

    Hi
    I’m new the the forum, so bare with me.
    Have a 2004 Z4 that has the power roof.
    The roof raises perfectly, but when lowering, most time after it unlocks, you have to give a little push, then it goes by itself, however slower that it raises.
    Then at about 4” from locking in the open position, it gets real slow, sometimes raising a little then back down will allow it to lock,other times you have to give a little push then it will lock and the light goes out.
    It raises real quick and locks right away, also a new motor/pump was installed recently.
    Any help would be appreciated.

  2. #2
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    Pelican Parts is offline Senior Member Supporting Vendor
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    Hello and welcome to the forum! Take a look at the link below to one of our site's DIY tech articles on the Z4 top - hopefully it'll help you troubleshoot the issue. Please let us know if you have any other questions or if we can assist with any other part needs.

    https://www.pelicanparts.com/techart...rtible_Top.htm
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  3. #3
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    I will move it to the Z4 forum
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    Have you checked the connecting joints? Properly greased and freely moving? What does the motor.soubd like in those last few moments when it doesnt go completely down? Does motor sound likes its strained or normal?

  5. #5
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    Z4 roof

    Quote Originally Posted by psycleridr View Post
    Have you checked the connecting joints? Properly greased and freely moving? What does the motor.soubd like in those last few moments when it doesnt go completely down? Does motor sound likes its strained or normal?
    It sounds kind of free , not strained, not under load if that makes sense.

    - - - Updated - - -

    The roof sounds not under load at top or bottom, only after it starts going down does it seem
    To have a little pressure.
    Going up it sounds like it has pressure and works real fast

  6. #6
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    Hi Celti, did you have any joy sorting out your problem?

    My Wife's Z4 has done it since we bought it.

    The Motor did the usual flooded thing so I bought a new one, cleaned everything and have fitted and bled it.

    I was hoping it was a tired motor making it slow one way, but unfortunately it is exactly the same

    Cheers, Paul.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yorkey View Post
    Hi Celti, did you have any joy sorting out your problem?

    My Wife's Z4 has done it since we bought it.

    The Motor did the usual flooded thing so I bought a new one, cleaned everything and have fitted and bled it.

    I was hoping it was a tired motor making it slow one way, but unfortunately it is exactly the same

    Cheers, Paul.
    Hey Paul sorry for the late reply.
    Can’t seem to get this forum to work any better than the roof.
    I have not been able to get anything resolved on the roof, hopefully someone has had this issue and knows the fix.
    Mine goes up fine, and as the same components operate up or down, I am confused as to why the problem exists only going do wn, it should take more effort to raise the roof than lowering it.
    Does yours raise ok?
    Thanks Dave

    - - - Updated - - -

    I have not had any luck with this issue, like I said the roof raises perfectly, just slow going down to the point where it needs a hand.
    The fact that the same components raise and lower is baffling to me to have the issue only lowering which should be easier than raising

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pelican Parts View Post
    Hello and welcome to the forum! Take a look at the link below to one of our site's DIY tech articles on the Z4 top - hopefully it'll help you troubleshoot the issue. Please let us know if you have any other questions or if we can assist with any other part needs.

    https://www.pelicanparts.com/techart...rtible_Top.htm
    I haven’t had any luck with this issue, as the roof raises perfectly and uses the same components, I’m not sure what the issue could be.
    Should be easier for the roof to go down than up?

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by celticrider View Post
    Hi
    I’m new the the forum, so bare with me.
    Have a 2004 Z4 that has the power roof.
    The roof raises perfectly, but when lowering, most time after it unlocks, you have to give a little push, then it goes by itself, however slower that it raises.
    Then at about 4” from locking in the open position, it gets real slow, sometimes raising a little then back down will allow it to lock,other times you have to give a little push then it will lock and the light goes out.
    It raises real quick and locks right away, also a new motor/pump was installed recently.
    Any help would be appreciated.
    We will need a little more info to troubleshoot. Where did you get the pump installed? The dealership or a professional shop? If it was a DIY was the motor/pump relocated to the trunk? Was any hydraulic oil added to the system after pump replacement? How much oil? Does the pump noise become notably louder as it slows down or is about to fail?
    Unlock the top from windshield lock (either manually or via pressing the top down button till top unlocks from windshield) then stop, go to trunk and pull the emergency release red pulley about 1/2” (to disengage the pump) and lock the pulled red pulley into new position by twisting your pulling hand 90 degrees around it’s axis. Visually confirm the new pulley position has changed from default then proceed to the next step. 1-Lower and raise the top manually to feel if there is any mechanical resistance from potentially bent hinges or joints during prior repair. 2-If no mechanical issues (and while the red emergency pulley is still in the PULLED position) press and hold the top down and up buttons for 10-15 secs each to prime oil into the hydraulic pipes and expel air from the hydraulic system. Repeat few times. 3-After this step If the pump is accessible check the oil level and fill to 3/4 the reservoir. If pump is not accessible proceed directly to next final step:
    4-Return the red pulley back into its normal position (untwist the 90 degrees and feed back into covering sheath) and test the convertible top by using the powered up and down buttons.
    5- When troubleshooting is completed check for any traces of hydraulic oil leakage in front of of the left rear wheel mud flap where the rain water drain is located and check the new location in the trunk (if pump relocated) to confirm no oil leakage.
    Hopefully priming the oil system will be all that was needed. Let us know how it goes. Good luck!
    Last edited by tekoo; 09-25-2018 at 01:16 AM.

  10. #10
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    Thanks for all the info tekoo, I will definitely try your suggestions.
    The motor was installed by a shop that sells and repairs these cars, not a BMW dealership.
    As far as the oil, I don’t know if or how much was added.
    I had thought a low oil issue may have been an issue, but if I understand correctly, it cannot be checked without removing the roof?
    If this isn’t so, correct me.
    The issue originally was the roof was inoperable, the shop replaced the motor, then it raised perfectly, but started not lowering properly, or locking all the time in the down position.
    At the start it only needed a little lift sometimes to get started at the windshield to get started to lower, it would lock in the down position ok.
    Then it got progressively worse to now it needs a lift most times and won’t lock without giving a tap, or raising part way and putting down then may lock.
    It always raises perfectly but when lowering the motor sounds ‘free’ as opposed to the sound raising
    Raising it sounds like there is lots of power , in fact you can feel it shake the car ever so slightly when it starts to raise.
    Thanks Dave.

  11. #11
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    I would say 70% chance all that is needed is priming, bleeding and refilling the hydraulic tank as I explained previously. 10% chance the pump was not positioned at a sufficient vertical angle suitable to prevent air renenty into the hydraulic system. 10% chance the hydraulic pipes (the ones responsible for moving top down) were not adequately positioned during the top reinstallation process and now get fully kinked/pinched from the heavy weight of the top in the down (open) position which causes obstruction of the oil flow and loss of pressure in these specific pipes. 10% chance there is hydraulic fluid leak somewhere.

    The fact that the pump roars “freely” or louder in the moving down position indicate that there is an air column trapped in these specific pipes that needs to be bled out. As the pump runs, the fluid inside the pipes rotates moving the air column till it reaches the pump and causes loss of pressure (usually generated by the movement of the viscid hydraulic oil). Now you can imagine why it sounds more “free”.

    If the above steps don’t work you would have to be able to access the pump for more troubleshooting which means the top would have to be at least undone.

    In regards to the unlatching difficulty from the windshield lock; refer to my other post (post #7) on the following thread:

    https://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/s...rail-red-blink

    Hope this helps.
    Last edited by tekoo; 09-25-2018 at 03:49 PM.

  12. #12
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    Thanks for the info.
    Lots of possibility.
    As far as difficulty unlatching from windshield, I may not have explained myself.
    It unlatched fine, just after unlatched is when I have to help it open.
    So just so I understand, not to get ahead of myself, if the fluid has to be checked, the roof had to be lifted?
    I appreciate all the info you have given to a newbie.
    Thanks again.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by celticrider View Post
    Thanks for the info.
    Lots of possibility.
    As far as difficulty unlatching from windshield, I may not have explained myself.
    It unlatched fine, just after unlatched is when I have to help it open.
    So just so I understand, not to get ahead of myself, if the fluid has to be checked, the roof had to be lifted?
    I appreciate all the info you have given to a newbie.
    Thanks again.
    You can’t check what you can’t see and reach, correct? If the new motor/pump unit was installed in its original default location above the rear left wheel well, it’s not accessible. I am not sure how well they have secured it in place and if that’s possible to undo from the trunk without removing the top. However that’s something to worry about for the BMW tech that did the repair not you. I only explained the basic instructions so you would be able to understand and perhaps prime the pump yourself and save another day at the mechanic. Also to help future readers with the same problem that are DIYers. But for you if it’s beyond the basic priming as I described earlier you should take it back to the shop since you paid for a complete repair.
    Last edited by tekoo; 09-25-2018 at 06:11 PM.

  14. #14
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    I have attached images for the emergency release red pulley. The red handle has a ridge about 1 inch in length on its lower aspect that is parked and secured in a corresponding channel/grove in the covering sheath. When you pull the handle you should be just aiming to pull enough to move the ridge out from its secured grove and twist 90 degrees to lock it in the new position and prevent it from sliding back into the grove. This allows you to bypass the pump motor to be able to move the top manually and also prime the hydraulic pipes and release the trapped air. Please refer to the attached images. The first few images are the default non-pulled state and the latter are in the pulled and locked out state. Notice that the pull/move is not too much. Some people pull too much and snap something so be careful and look for visual confirmation. Needless to say; when you are done reverse the process to the default state.
    9082B808-F2D2-46CF-8290-73D30EB3AE54.jpg163F40B8-9819-42D5-9D95-FDFE38EB5A80.jpg0F2211DE-FE0B-4721-9208-B9300A7554B9.jpg0A8B1097-213C-483D-876F-FD05008B602A.jpgA83935FF-7CD1-4416-B731-827E91C20877.jpg
    Last edited by tekoo; 10-06-2018 at 12:52 PM.

  15. #15
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    So I finally got to try to bleed the system, with no luck.
    It still needs a hand to start righ after unlocking from the windshield.
    Once you help it a little to get started, it will go down to about 4” from locking.
    Then you have to raise up a bit then down. At that point it is close enough with a little push to lock.
    It still raises fine.
    I checked near the drains for oil, and there is no sign of leaking.
    The drains are clear as I have put water along the side of the roof at the rear fenders and water leaks on the floor by the drain area.
    1st few times raising after repositioning the red handle sounded like air, but went away after a few cycles.
    Also the roof goes up and down fairly easily with red handle released.
    Not sure how easy, there is a little resistance the 1st time or two, then gets easier, no binding I assume from the oil in the system causing this.
    So what are your thoughts?
    Should it take more power to raise the roof than lower?
    Also does the oil exit the reservoir to raise or lower?
    Used to working on heavy equipment hydraulics when a cylinder is raised oils goes out of reservoir.
    Again any help would be appreciated.

  16. #16
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    Other thing, would low oil fact the operation one way only?
    Just asking as I don’t know how the oil moves in the system

  17. #17
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    Hey guy.

    If the motor/pump is a new install and your sure there isn't a leak then, more hydo fluid should have been added during the change over of the new pump/motor. Basically, there's isn't enough fluid and when empty the air pumped into the lines hampers the next cycle (either closing/opening). This sort of explains why you need to give it a hand at either the beginning or end of it's cycle, because your either pushing out air pockets in the lines or pushing air into the lines....because it's missing the fluid which would normally fill those air pockets.


    Although I might be wrong, I have no other explanation for a new install motor/pump without leaks doing what you explained.


    However, I strongly urge you to also post this on https://z4-forum.com/forum/viewforum...f52cb4717e76d1
    This is a UK Z4 posting Forum and these guy's are honestly the best top trouble shooters for the BMW Z4 on the net.

  18. #18
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    Thanks for the reply.
    Didn’t know this was a UK forum, I am new to this site as well as the Z4
    I am leaning toward a low oil level as a last resort too

  19. #19
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    Yea, since your pump is new, no leaks ….your really almost out of options, other than low Hydo fluid and this would explain the gap's in top movement when the fluid ran out.
    No, this isn't the UK site......the site I provided you with is the UK Z4 site.

    Wishing you the best with this.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by celticrider View Post
    So I finally got to try to bleed the system, with no luck.
    It still needs a hand to start righ after unlocking from the windshield.
    Once you help it a little to get started, it will go down to about 4” from locking.
    Then you have to raise up a bit then down. At that point it is close enough with a little push to lock.
    It still raises fine.
    I checked near the drains for oil, and there is no sign of leaking.
    The drains are clear as I have put water along the side of the roof at the rear fenders and water leaks on the floor by the drain area.
    1st few times raising after repositioning the red handle sounded like air, but went away after a few cycles.
    Also the roof goes up and down fairly easily with red handle released.
    Not sure how easy, there is a little resistance the 1st time or two, then gets easier, no binding I assume from the oil in the system causing this.
    So what are your thoughts?
    Should it take more power to raise the roof than lower?
    Also does the oil exit the reservoir to raise or lower?
    Used to working on heavy equipment hydraulics when a cylinder is raised oils goes out of reservoir.
    Again any help would be appreciated.
    The oil level is low allowing air entry into the circuit. Oil flows in one direction into 2 hydraulic lines generating pressure to raise the top. Upon lowering the top the cycle reverses; oil now flows into the opposite direction gushing into 2 other hydraulic lines that move the top down. Inside the oil storage compartment there are 2 nozzles that have to be continuously submerged under oil at all times. When oil runs low and the pump operates, air escapes through one or both of the nozzles into the hydraulic lines and causes loss of pressure/function in either one or both movements (up and down) leading to the symptoms you are experiencing. The pump is tilted vertically in its default location so one nozzle is higher than the other at all times. In your case the nozzle that is positioned higher (and therefore exposed to air entry) is probably the one that connects to the hydraulic lines responsible for lowering the top down (hence why the problem is more prominent selectively in one direction). You need to go back to your mechanic to figure out why the oil is low, top it off, purge the air out of the system and re inspect their work. If you waste too much time you might loose the opportunity as no repair is warranted for life. I am attaching a couple of images of the pump. One with the oil cap off exposing the two large cylindrical nozzles on either side. They both have to be submerged under oil at all times. The other image show the pump in default state with cap on and air fluid level. Hopefully now it is clear that the lower the oil level is or the more horizontal the pump is positioned the more likely it is one or both of the nozzles inside is filling up with air. Good luck!7EBEA182-1371-4588-9A80-6A3F7137B499.jpg07C89386-0ED0-4AC5-B033-68A529E983C4.jpeg
    Last edited by tekoo; 10-02-2018 at 11:15 PM.

  21. #21
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    Just an update, after bleeding the system, there sounded to be a lot of air, and it was very loud operating then after a few cycles was back to normal sound.
    Hadn’t used the roof for a few days, then went to open, and it wouldn’t. It unlocked from the windshield, but that was about it.
    Had to help it all the way open.
    Then closing, it raised about a foot then got loud and had to help it all the way to the windshield.
    Never did that before.
    I pulled the red tab back and forth but did not make any difference.
    Any ideas on what may be happening
    Thanks.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by celticrider View Post
    Just an update, after bleeding the system, there sounded to be a lot of air, and it was very loud operating then after a few cycles was back to normal sound.
    Hadn’t used the roof for a few days, then went to open, and it wouldn’t. It unlocked from the windshield, but that was about it.
    Had to help it all the way open.
    Then closing, it raised about a foot then got loud and had to help it all the way to the windshield.
    Never did that before.
    I pulled the red tab back and forth but did not make any difference.
    Any ideas on what may be happening
    Thanks.

    Yes. There is no enough oil in the container to cover the nozzles so when you bleed you introduce more air (instead of oil) and the symptoms get worse. This confirms what we have discussed over and over before.

  23. #23
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    Thanks
    I will check it out and post what I find

  24. #24
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    Whoever will take the soft top apart needs to fill at least 3/4 of the oil container, run the pump multiple times in each direction (biderectional pump) with the red pulley activated. And then release red pulley to default location and run the top few times in each direction. Before mounting it back on the car the oil container has to be checked again that it’s at least 3/4 full. Some people with limited experience see a line on the outside of the container that identifies the level of the nozzles and think this line identifies the level where the container has to be filled to which is not correct (which I am highly suspicious was the case with your mechanic). What happens is that oil at this level is barely covering the tip of the nozzles but when the top and the pump go back to default tilted location in the car one or both nozzles become exposed to air due to low oil. Care must also be taken not to kink any hydraulic pipes during install. There are 2 screw with 3 washers for each screw. These screws connect the pipes to the pump. All washers must be available and in correct default position (otherwise the oil flow through the screws will be blocked and might affect the movement in one or both directions). If any of these screws or washers are missing; then you need to purchase the BMW hydraulic top repair kit which contains these items (BMW part # 54347114081)
    F49DE990-3B8A-40AB-87C9-0D36E39C26FE.jpgE6277CA5-CA5A-4EC6-8C22-A911BA6D71EA.jpg65B0A04F-D142-4C28-AEC2-845C2C45FBEC.jpgF670D3C2-C064-4BFE-BAB7-DC0E99D8E32D.jpg
    Last edited by tekoo; 10-05-2018 at 08:49 PM.

  25. #25
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    Thanks for the info. I believe you are exactly right by how the roof has been working.
    So if the unit was installed properly, I don’t know if it was as it was not a BMW dealer installation,ibut all I know is it is in the factory location, is it possible to do what you suggested with checking and adding oil in the factory location without removing the roof as which most posts say has to be done.

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