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Thread: Jerry's car project

  1. #276
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    Troubleshooting Non-Starter

    I was recently told by someone, if the car actually turned over and started I know I have spark; if it ran roughly I might not have all plugs working but....
    If the fuel was bad or the fuel pump was bad or I wasn't getting fuel flow for some reason it could start but then die. Tested alternator without start of engine; 2.12 dc volt; when turned on lights and A/C fan reading was 1.77 volt. Battery reading was 12.19 with no key turned on and 11.75 with car on but not started. When car turned off and measured again it was 11.88. When key turned to Pos 2, service engine soon and oil light was on; but that might go off upon starting? Can fuel pump operation be confirmed by opening the gas cap and listening to see if it's working? Water pump repair of bolt hole where bolt sheared off went well; I couldn't extract the bolt but somehow managed to drill into it and use extractor to open up the hole and still thread a new bolt into the hole. Can anyone tell me the bolt dimensions for the bolt that goes into the middle of the engine block behind the water pump? It's larger than the 6 bolts around the water pump itself. I was thinking about the timing question and would have thought the car would not have started or Tim or Old Roller would have mentioned this as a possible issue....what are symptoms of bad timing? Could it be as simple as bad fuel or no fuel? I'm pretty sure the fuel pump fuse wasn't seated in its connection all the way. Lots of things to check and change.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  2. #277
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    Let's assume that the clatter was just a lack of oil through the engine. The most likely cause of a start and then fizzle out is a lack of fuel pressure. You can run the fuel pump by poking the fuel-pump relay - I've removed the cover and am poking here:



    You should be able to hear the fuel pump running - the ignition does not need to be switched on as this relay is always live.

    The pump should also run for a second or so as the key is turned - but that is harder to hear.
    Timm..2007 E64 650i Individual Sport..1999 E31 840ci Individual Sport..ex owner of 2000 E38 740..1999 E38 740i V8 M62..1998 E38 735i V8..1993 E32 730i V8..1988 E28 518i


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  3. #278
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    Thanks Timm. I will probably take out the back seat, access the fuel pump and drain any remaining gas in the tank and start fresh. A good time to check that it's running as well. Your comments give me hope that the fuel pump relay fuse was not seated properly and therefore the fuel pump was not in operation upon starting.
    I plan on just disconnecting the pump hose, opening the gas cap and collecting the remaining gas. The spark plugs are all new and no oil present around them.

  4. #279
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    Water Pump Bolt on Engine block

    Looking for information on the dimensions of the bolt behind the water pump on the engine block; not sure if the right one is in there. Called BMW dealer and they couldn't answer the question---hmmm? Want to confirm the right bolt is in there before attaching water pump. Thanks a lot for your help. The larger bolt at 11:00 in the circle.

    Jerrybmw water pump bolt.jpg

  5. #280
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    That bolt is conspicuously missing from RealEOM's listings, so I went into the shop and measured my project's cover,
    that bolt is a M8 x 70mm.
    Yours looks to be seated, maybe extract it and place it back in the hole, threads just touching. There should be about
    1/2" or 13 mm of bolt extending out from the bolt seat.

  6. #281
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    Thanks oldroller for the information; badly needed so really appreciate your response. Not to be a PITA, but I have wondered what the function of that particular hole is and where the bolt ends up when tightened? I had thought by the bolt sticking out, it would be some impediment to the water pump placed over it. Does the bolt prevent something from exiting the hole, or is it just another bolt to provide a tight connection to the block? It's strange I can't find anything on it. I just keep having this nagging feeling if I don't have the right bolt in there it could cause a major problem. Having this information eliminates at least one of the potential issues of the water pump leaking.

  7. #282
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    2007 Z4 M Coupe
    Hi Jerry,

    The bolt you are asking about secures the lower timing cover. I've circled the corresponding hole in the block (see first image below).

    IMG_0771.jpg

    IMG_0817.jpg
    Last edited by Ruskii; 12-09-2018 at 09:42 PM. Reason: added 2nd picture
    Current: 2007 Z4 M Coupe (blue/black)
    Previous: 2001 740iL Sport (black/black), 2000 528i Sport (black/tan), 1995 318is (black/black), 1991 318is (white/black)

  8. #283
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    Yep, Ruskii's got it, secures the lower cover to the block. Head is recessed into the hole, no contact with the water pump.

  9. #284
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruskii View Post
    Hi Jerry,

    The bolt you are asking about secures the lower timing cover. I've circled the corresponding hole in the block (see first image below).



    IMG_0771.jpg

    IMG_0817.jpg
    Great pictures Ruskii and thanks for the response; another great thing to know. Strange place to put a strange hole for purposes of securing the lower timing cover better.

  10. #285
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    Whatever could have gone wrong today...did. It required 3 times to mount the water pump with bolts not fitting, the small pipe becoming dislodged from the back and the lower timing cover bolt not recessed, interfering with the operation of the pump. (I received updated information afterwards). Still...I am glad to have learned of the purpose of the bolt and also learned to attach the water pump without taking off the harmonic balancer requires the lower bolt to already be in the water pump before trying to attach it. I decided to not detach the pump once more and instead removed the harmonic balancer. I am hopeful the original start problem was unsuccessful due to the fuel pump fuse not inserted properly. I will none the less empty the old gas and start with new. It will also give me the opportunity to view the pump's operation and maybe replace the fuel filter. At the time I was quite pissed at my failures, but now remember it is only a small setback. Much thanks to Ruskii and Oldroller for their input. I continue to hope the timing is not the problem. I will check the compression at some point if required....not sure when if at all, to check for timing as the problem. I reinserted the small pipe into the rear hole and when the bolts were tightened the front of the pipe fitted securely into the front of the water pump. Not sure what to expect if the rear connection is not sealed properly?
    Is there anyway to check for leaks at the waterpump before putting everything back in place? I think I will have the record for the longest repair job while doing a timing guides replacement; over a year now. Obviously, I haven't felt the need to rush.....LOL. Tried ordering from BimmerWorld first time....and last. After a week I called to check on my order and it wasn't shipped due to waiting for an item on back order. I was not informed of this delay. Cancelled order. FYI.

  11. #286
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldroller View Post
    Yep, Ruskii's got it, secures the lower cover to the block. Head is recessed into the hole, no contact with the water pump.
    So, putting on a water pump isn't as easy as the DIY videos and information makes it appear. The bolt holes seem notorious for requiring real concern when re-threading the bolt, (lubrication). Also, as with everything, hopefully the last person used the correct bolts when they took off the water pump and reinstalled, (not in my case). Then you have the issue of aligning the water pump to the bolt holes while attaching the two tubes to the back of it. Then, there's the lower center bolt behind the harmonic balancer that you can get off without removing the harmonic balancer, but if you try to put the bolt back in after aligning and attaching the water pump, the bolt will not clear the harmonic balancer; (should have inserted that bolt first before attaching the water pump) so now you do have to either take the pump off and start over or remove the harmonic balancer to get the bolt into the hole. Then, of course you have the two pipes of which if you're not careful enough one will detach from the back of the manifold. While you could place it back in without seeing where it goes, you're not entirely sure it is a snug fit and may not be correct as it seems looser after being inserted. What are the consequences of that error? Finally, as there is very little information available (until now) concerning the middle bolt on the engine block, if you have an issue here with the bolt being incorrect or taking it out and not knowing what that hole is for, I haven't seen anything in my research that explains its' purpose, (until now). My point is: some of these DIY videos seem to be intended to attract "hits" and result in the provider receiving income from the advertisers. The information they provide is often only cursory and doesn't deal with common issues that can and do arise. I know; I should do some myself and stop whining but I'm so grateful for the people on bimmerforums to help me out of these jams. I would highly recommend that "newbies" think twice before thinking a video or instruction manual is all they will need to perform a repair.
    Last edited by Jerry Scholder; 12-14-2018 at 11:31 AM.

  12. #287
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    So, I've replaced the water pump with the bolt at top to the left of center missing; I sealed up the bolt hole and sealed that area pretty extensively to minimize any possibility of a leak. Put everything back together and found another thing to tick me off; the hoses do not just pull off sometimes and can be a real PITA. The lower water pump hose on the passenger side radiator is a case in point. I used the screwdriver for help but lucky to not have broken the plastic. Everything back on. I'll check the fuel pump prior to starting.

  13. #288
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    I'm almost at the point of being able to tell you all the things NOT to do.

  14. #289
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Scholder View Post
    I'm almost at the point of being able to tell you all the things NOT to do.
    ....and that's the most useful information to have!
    Timm..2007 E64 650i Individual Sport..1999 E31 840ci Individual Sport..ex owner of 2000 E38 740..1999 E38 740i V8 M62..1998 E38 735i V8..1993 E32 730i V8..1988 E28 518i


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  15. #290
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timm View Post
    ....and that's the most useful information to have!
    What a Great answer! Thanks Timm; my faith in getting it done is renewed.

  16. #291
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    A real test of faith....

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Scholder View Post
    What a Great answer! Thanks Timm; my faith in getting it done is renewed.
    I've tried 3x to finish this post; hopefully this will be the last time. I'm trying to determine if the fuel pump is bad or if it's the relay module or connections. My pictures don't agree with online information. My ohm meter leads aren't long enough to access the relay points and I haven't tried the 16 gauge jump wire yet as I'm not sure if I have the right module to test and disconnected the wires to the fuel pump cover. I now can't re-connect them as lining up the connector is not a simple process. Videos show how to disconnect it but not re-connect it. Thus, I can't even check with the start key turned to Pos 2 if the fuel pump works. With the included pictures maybe someone can point me in the right direction...please.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  17. #292
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    If you use a small screwdriver, pop the plastic lock tabs on the relay cover and remove the cover. look at the relay and you will see the spring plate that is pulled in when activated, the terminals on the plate transfer battery power to the pump. Put the relay back in place with no cover. Look at Timm's post #277.

    The connector at the pump is a slide-to-lock connector, just insert the base into the housing, and slide the outer case inward. It will engage the
    pins on the outside of the pump connector and push the main body in as it slides.

    No need to turn the key on, press in on the relay spring tab and you will hear the pump run if it is good. Just be careful not to short out the spring tab
    of the relay to the case. Make sure you have a good fuse also.

    It makes it easier if you have another to listen at the pump head while triggering the relay.

  18. #293
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    If your pump doesn't work - use your meter set to VOLTS - stick the black probe on an exposed metal part of the chassis and use the red probe to push the contact across - you should see a good 12V on the meter. If there is no 12V then the problem is likely to be the fuse,

    As already said, the ignition does not need to be switched ON, the relay is permanently live:

    Timm..2007 E64 650i Individual Sport..1999 E31 840ci Individual Sport..ex owner of 2000 E38 740..1999 E38 740i V8 M62..1998 E38 735i V8..1993 E32 730i V8..1988 E28 518i


    My BMW Repair YouTube Channel
    My Current 840ci Sport Individual
    My Current 650ci Sport Individual
    My E31 Repair and Information Website
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    Chase - Heroes to a generation

  19. #294
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    Thanks Guys; I'm sure this will make more sense when I take the relay cover off and see the "spring plate" and how to press in on the relay spring tab and how it is pulled in when activated. Insert base into the housing and slide outer case inward; I'm reading it, I'm saying it and understand English, but I'm not "seeing" it while processing the information. Just being honest. I'll video my attempt and maybe someone can see where I'm screwing up. GREAT INFORMATION to keep moving forward. Appreciate your response.

  20. #295
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    Fuel Pump Troubleshooting

    The fuel pump relay module was found to be good after putting the meter on the contact and pushing across. I could not find anything wrong with the fuel pump fuse in the trunk and could also find no power reading from the the black connector. I would have liked to test if the pump was running with the key turned to position 2, but still could not re-connect the slide to lock connector. I am really frustrated because I've looked at every instruction and oriented the connector as required and the thing will not slide on. Don't know what else to do except beg for a video showing a step by step procedure. I even had my 32 year old son who is pretty good at figuring things out and after looking at everything and trying for 15 minutes could not understand how it would be possible. He's thinking maybe something is missing or broken. I turned the ignition to the 2 position and tested the black connection, but could not find any power with the meter. Even if I get another fuel pump and fuel filter, I'm not convinced I can put the slide to lock connector back on.....SAD. I will try to take a video of how I'm trying to do it and post it as well. Trying to stay positive.....

  21. #296
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    Jerry, where are you know? What is the symptom? Engine cranking but not firing up?

  22. #297
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    Quote Originally Posted by georgebest View Post
    Jerry, where are you know? What is the symptom? Engine cranking but not firing up?
    George: Can't try starting again until I resolve fuel pump question (see thread) and then I have to re-seat/replace the cooling pipes off the back of the water pump.
    While positioning the water pump a cooling pipe disconnected from the back. The advice of "don't worry about it, it will go back in again" didn't work for me. I'm really trying to get some information on putting the slide connector back on to the fuel pump cover (see thread). I could then do the last test on the fuel pump to see if it needs to be replaced; (probably does). Any advice on the simplest way to re-connect the cooling pipes would be appreciated. I have been curious about taking the manifold out.

  23. #298
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    Cooling pipes: you dont need to remove the manifold for that "only" the water pump. Make sure you use new o-rings on all 4 ends, cause maybe you messed them up when trying to reconnect, they are cheap anyway. I'm using WD40 what is not the proper lubricant for this task but regardless always worked for me. Soak all ends with WD40, they slide in nicely with some force.
    I see that you are well covered with the fuel pump issue above, not much I can add to that. I found the easiest to use a jumper cable to see if it's running, if you have the Bentley manual it describes it quite well.

  24. #299
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    Quote Originally Posted by georgebest View Post
    Cooling pipes: you dont need to remove the manifold for that "only" the water pump. Make sure you use new o-rings on all 4 ends, cause maybe you messed them up when trying to reconnect, they are cheap anyway. I'm using WD40 what is not the proper lubricant for this task but regardless always worked for me. Soak all ends with WD40, they slide in nicely with some force.
    I see that you are well covered with the fuel pump issue above, not much I can add to that. I found the easiest to use a jumper cable to see if it's running, if you have the Bentley manual it describes it quite well.
    George: you may have missed it, but I can't check if the fuel pump is running without knowing how to reconnect the slide connector. Still hoping for information on this.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Scholder View Post
    I've tried 3x to finish this post; hopefully this will be the last time. I'm trying to determine if the fuel pump is bad or if it's the relay module or connections. My pictures don't agree with online information. My ohm meter leads aren't long enough to access the relay points and I haven't tried the 16 gauge jump wire yet as I'm not sure if I have the right module to test and disconnected the wires to the fuel pump cover. I now can't re-connect them as lining up the connector is not a simple process. Videos show how to disconnect it but not re-connect it. Thus, I can't even check with the start key turned to Pos 2 if the fuel pump works. With the included pictures maybe someone can point me in the right direction...please.
    Still looking for help in re-attaching the slide connector. Anyone.........?

  25. #300
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    Perhaps this will help? Guy needs to take a leak but be patient...

    https://youtu.be/eDsL920pzdQ
    Last edited by clarkitect; 01-31-2019 at 08:39 PM.
    2000 740i Sport | 2004 330xi | 1988 325i Vert | 2003 Z4 2.5 | 1995 Ford F150 | 2018 GTI

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