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Thread: Coolant circulation issue? M52B28

  1. #1
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    Coolant circulation issue? M52B28

    Hi all,

    '98 M52B28 having a bit of trouble circulating the coolant.
    The (unbuffered) temp needle has always stayed in dead center after fixing the bad ground, but last week it decided to pass it and to keep rising until I fire up the heater.

    Some notes:
    - thermostat installed in 2015
    - radiator installed in 2016
    - waterpump installed in early 2017

    When the engine is warming up, idling at my doorstep:
    Needle still in the blue
    The blue hose from the thermostat is getting warm. (I bet the thermostat will need to be replaced)
    Small hose on the left from the radiator to the coolant reservoir is getting warm.
    Radiator is stone cold. Also in the upper corner driver side.
    Needle at the center mark
    Blue hose is hot, and so is the little hose to the coolant reservoir.
    Radiator is somewhat warm, but only at the upper driver side.
    Needle almost at the next mark (I've never let the needle pass this one)
    Radiator becomes too hot to touch on the driver side, but the passenger side is still really cold.
    The hose on the passenger side at the bottom is almost completely cold. Only the side facing the exhaust is a little warmer, so it might not even be from coolant.

    Can a thermostat be stuck open, but just half open restricting flow..?
    Is my radiator clogged?
    Would an air pocket cause this? Note that the bleed screw is located too low to be of much use. This has never caused any trouble so far though.

    Not sure if relevant, but the car has been used for a lot of short trips since February this year. 10 minutes twice a day.
    Some longer trips in between (30-45 minutes), but mostly the short ones.
    Also not sure if relevant, but the electric fan is always on as it lacks a temp switch.

    Please let me know your thoughts!
    I would be very happy if this could be caused just by a dead thermostat, but I wouldn't be surprised if there's more to it.

    Last edited by 323i E30; 05-27-2018 at 07:34 AM.
    ^ true story



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  2. #2
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    It’s prettyrare for a thermostat to fail in the closed position. Typically they fail by opening too quickly, thus preventing the engine from reaching the proper operating temperature. How hot does the lower radiator hose get? Are the newish parts made by the suppliers to BMW, or are they from the local parts store? It does matter.

  3. #3
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    How long have you had that blue hose? I remember, many years ago, Jim Rowe (Metric Mechanic), explaining to me why BMW upper and lower hoses are belled at the ends, and get smaller: it keeps the coolant from "tripping", and causing a turbulence which results in a flow issue......just like intake air.

    Are the heater hoses hooked up? If these are blocked, rather than looped, coolant flow is incorrect.

    All that said, I'd throw a thermostat and water pump at it.

    Chris Powell
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    Master Auto Tech, owner of German Motors of Aberdeen
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    German Motors is hiring ! https://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/s...1#post30831471

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    Thanks for the responses.

    Marco,
    Waterpump & thermostat are genuine BMW. Radiator isn't.
    Lower hose stays cold.

    Chris,
    The blue hose has been on there since 2016, installed together with the radiator. I'll look up the video about the hose, because that is new to me.
    The heater hoses are hooked up and functioning.
    You're right. I should start with the thermostat anyway, and keep the waterpump in the back of my head.
    Last edited by 323i E30; 05-27-2018 at 10:06 AM.

  5. #5
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    It's SO much easier to do the water pump, when the thermostat is off....in fact, you use 2 of the thermostat bolts to push the water pump off.... It's not expensive, like the one for an N52......

    Chris Powell
    Racer and Instructor since, well. decades, ok?
    Master Auto Tech, owner of German Motors of Aberdeen
    BMWCCA 274412
    German Motors is hiring ! https://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/s...1#post30831471

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    323i E30's Avatar
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    True.. Might as well do both indeed. Thanks for convincing me. I'll see when I can find the time to do it and report back.
    Last edited by 323i E30; 05-28-2018 at 03:03 PM.
    ^ true story



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  7. #7
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    I'm pretty sure that you, and my other very good friends at this forum, know that I'm not a parts thrower,

    Still, it's crucial that we all see the correlation between parts cost and labor....whether our own labor, or that of a pro.

    Everyone here knows I'm a pro: I can use a lift, and every conceivable tool, at will.

    That said, I'd damned sure throw a thermostat and water pump at your car, if it belonged to me.

    I don't like working on cars; I like fixing them, and sending them home.

    Chris Powell
    Racer and Instructor since, well. decades, ok?
    Master Auto Tech, owner of German Motors of Aberdeen
    BMWCCA 274412
    German Motors is hiring ! https://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/s...1#post30831471

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    323i E30's Avatar
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    Absolutely Chris. I wouldn't be asking questions here if I didn't value the responses
    Parts have been ordered (+ new brake pads while I'm at it). I'll report back if I run into anything worth mentioning.
    Could take a couple of weeks, because life is busy..!
    ^ true story



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  9. #9
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    at least this is one of those jobs where you have easy access and its bolt on, bolt off. kinda fun actually.
    '95 325iS - auto to manual swap done!

  10. #10
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    I agree...kinda fun. Likely success, relatively inexpensive parts, straightforward car. Beats hell out of an N63.

    Chris Powell
    Racer and Instructor since, well. decades, ok?
    Master Auto Tech, owner of German Motors of Aberdeen
    BMWCCA 274412
    German Motors is hiring ! https://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/s...1#post30831471

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    323i E30's Avatar
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    So.. today I put the new waterpump and thermostat in.
    It actually was relaxing to replace them indeed, so no time wasted there..
    The 'old' waterpump and thermostat both looked brand new and the cooling system behaves exactly as before though.
    I don't get it. Any ideas?

    ^ true story



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  12. #12
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    Wow, I'm very surprised. Well, you've ruled out the two prime suspects, and now you have useful spare parts....sorry.

    I wish you had a vacuum-fill device, so we could positively rule out an air bubble. But, that said, I know that you're quite erudite and accomplished, so an air bubble's probably not likely, especially since you've just done a major opening of the system, careful refill, and the issue is unchanged.

    Let me run through a couple of things: With engine running, if you squeeze the top hose hard, does the coolant level in the reservoir change?
    Do you have any access to an infrared temp gun, to aim at the upper hose? (I wonder if that hose is truly as hot as we think?)
    If you pull off the little return hose from the top of the radiator to the expansion tank.....or better yet, just open the cap of the tank....is coolant flowing, with the engine running?

    Um, not something I've tried, but one of the most famous current BMW racers says his VERY PROFESSIONAL team does this: remove top hose from radiator, and fill radiator through the big hole at the top. (Thank you James).

    IF the top hose is, say, 90C, right near the radiator, and you've done a good bleeding procedure as I'm sure you have, I'm going to have to guess that your newish radiator has problems. Can you catch the lovely blue BMW coolant I know you've just put in, and then try running a garden hose through the radiator, both hoses unhooked, and far from any pets that might drink the KoolAid? (Sorry, that's an old American-only reference to the Jonestown massacre)

    Chris Powell
    Racer and Instructor since, well. decades, ok?
    Master Auto Tech, owner of German Motors of Aberdeen
    BMWCCA 274412
    German Motors is hiring ! https://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/s...1#post30831471

  13. #13
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    These symptoms scream of no circulation.
    Possible causes; failed pump, stuck closed thermostat, excessive air, restriction(s)
    You've addressed the first two and it seems you know how to bleed it. I'd be looking at the radiator and the hoses, especially the lower which could be collapsing.
    Good luck, that's all I've got.

    If you can leave two black stripes from the exit of one corner to the braking zone of the next, you have enough horsepower. - Mark Donohue

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmwdirtracer View Post

    Um, not something I've tried, but one of the most famous current BMW racers says his VERY PROFESSIONAL team does this: remove top hose from radiator, and fill radiator through the big hole at the top. (Thank you James).
    This does work well. Attaching a spare hose to the rad and holding it high so it becomes the highest point helps. A little messy when attaching the top hose but if a race car there's no anti freeze for Fido to lap up anyway.

    If you can leave two black stripes from the exit of one corner to the braking zone of the next, you have enough horsepower. - Mark Donohue

  15. #15
    323i E30's Avatar
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    Chris,

    No worries about expanding the the spare parts shelf It made sense, and at least we can exclude them as most likely culprit.

    The car hasn't ran since my last post so I'll have to come back on the things to run through.
    Meanwhile I have ordered a cheapo ir temp gun.

    I have to admit that there is red coolant in my cooling system. I know that that's blasphemy and you always advise the blue coolant so I actually was planning on flushing it and put blue in there. I didn't dare draining the block because of the risk of spilling though, so I refilled the radiator with new red fluid. How critical is this? I know some things here and there, but I really am merely an enthusiast.
    Sidenote: I only have my short driveway to perform any repairs on at the moment on which I can't be spilling any fluids. Besides an unhappy Earth: the government will hang me financially if I do.

    I have successfully bled the system in the past, but I will repeat and see if I get some positive results.
    When the radiator was disconnected I did dump a bottle of coolant in the top hose, and it came out at the bottom. Simple me figured that if gravity can get it through there that easily, the waterpump will be able to as well.

    Ross,
    Thanks for checking in! I will re-bleed and see if it changes anything.
    ^ true story



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  16. #16
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    Hmmmmm.....RED coolant ???? Okay, let's discuss this:

    If you used TOYOTA red coolant, you've not likely done any harm. If you used VW pink $#!+, well, that is a COAGULANT coolant. IF that is the only coolant in the system, you'll still be okay.....but IF, God forbid, you mixed the nasty VW stuff with any other coolant, you may have a clogged heater core or radiator.

    The most important thing is to avoid mixing coolants -- that's when things go bad.

    When Dexcool or VW coolant leaks, they form stalactites and stalagmites. It is well known that GM did this with Dexcool because their headgaskets leak. I do not know why VW uses a coagulant coolant. Blue coolant doesn't do this, nor have I seen the cheap green coolant do this, nor Toyota's red coolant....but VW coolant and Dexcool can make some very impressive formations.

    I try to be ecologically conscious. I will mention that, until about 2005, BMW's coolant bottles said you could dump your used coolant into any sanitary sewer system. Yes, really. If anyone has one of the older white colored bottles, you'll see this. (No, I am not advising anyone do this, just stating an interesting fact.)

    Back on point:

    See if temps are correct, and do the re-bleed. After getting the car fully warm, do not open the system until the following morning, then fill to correct level, if it dropped. (Does your heater work?)

    Chris Powell
    Racer and Instructor since, well. decades, ok?
    Master Auto Tech, owner of German Motors of Aberdeen
    BMWCCA 274412
    German Motors is hiring ! https://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/s...1#post30831471

  17. #17
    323i E30's Avatar
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    I'm pretty sure that I have a blend of pink and red in there. I will drain it and replace it with blue asap.
    Actually I will bring it to the shop for that as it's a piece of cake there, but possibly nasty on my driveway.

    My heater does still work indeed, and I will check temps and see if I can re-bleed today.
    Thanks a million for your time and knowledge..!! Much much appreciated.
    ^ true story



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  18. #18
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    Little update.

    I brought the car to a shop here to change the coolant last week, and asked to investigate the warm running issue beforehand.
    They had it idling in their shop for 50 minutes, but they read no temperatures over 98C (208F). The exit hose was at 40C (104F). The needle sat in that same position. Disconnecting the fan immediately caused high exit hose readings, so the coolant flow seemed ok.
    They changed the coolant temperature sensor to rule that thing out, but no change.
    They weren't too worried and told me that the needle might be off. I'm not very convinced of that though, as it used to be right in dead center.
    Anyhow, they charged nothing and told me te keep an eye on it, and come back for the coolant change as soon as the temperature turns out to be fine and stable.

    I took it for a 30 minute drive today to get some temps afterwards.
    The needle spent its time sitting as shown in the picture. On the highway it was sitting a hair lower, at city speeds it went a bit over, and idling at my driveway it would rise some.
    I quickly got some readings: Top left of my radiator was at 105C (221F) and the exit hose was at 60C (140F) and rose to 62C (143F) in seconds.
    Both seem waaay to high to me.

    What would be the right temperature at the exit hose?

    Maybe I should throw a new radiator at it, and even see if I can squeeze a good old fashioned clutch fan in there that could propel a boat, instead of this drive-wind blocking electro stuff.
    Coolant change will be right after.
    Would that be an idea?

    Wife: "Maybe it is time to buy a new car"
    Me : "What, an additional E30? Not sure if that would solve my issues with this one"
    Wife: "That's not what I meant"
    Last edited by 323i E30; 07-07-2018 at 03:05 PM.
    ^ true story



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  19. #19
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    Wait....are you sure about those temps? I'm going to believe that you're sure....in which case: Your radiator is MAGNIFICENT! Your fan is MIRACULOUS !

    And your engine is getting way too damned hot.

    On an M52 engined car, I expect to see the top hose somewhere between 190 F (88C) and 200 F (94C). Furthermore, I expect the bottom hose to be about 160F (71C) to 170F (77C).

    I forget, does an M52 have plastic pipes running back from the water pump, or rubber hoses?

    I'd advise having a close look at the long ~1 inch (25mm) I.D. rubber hoses from the front of the motor to the back, and the expansion tank. Any kinks?

    And, if you happen to have the old top hose laying around, I think I'd swap it, in case the diameter changes inside those pretty blue hoses are causing an issue.

    Either way, your problem is NOT with the radiator....unless....well....this is VERY far fetched, especially since you've seen the radiator flow unrestricted....but IF the rad were, say, 90% clogged,Then the small amount of coolant making it through would very likely be very cold. Now, allow me to say that I've never seen this, and really, your radiator looks very clean and new.

    I wish I could tell you to do what a crude American would do: undo the rad hoses, catch all the coolant you can, flush the drippings with lots of water so no animal can drink it, and put the garden hose in the rad to see if it REALLY flows freely. (BMW coolant bottles prior to about 2005 said "can be discarded in any sanitary sewer system).

    HOWEVER, Europe is far more environmentally conscientious than the U.S. now, and I can only applaud that, because it's the correct way to live, and preserve our planet.

    Something is not flowing freely. Since your water pump and thermostat are new, it's down to the larger diameter hoses or the radiator, and I just don't think it's the rad. Can you point your temp gun at various places on the rad, and see if there are any spots which are truly cold, when other parts are hot, or if the temp changes gradually across the face?

    Chris Powell
    Racer and Instructor since, well. decades, ok?
    Master Auto Tech, owner of German Motors of Aberdeen
    BMWCCA 274412
    German Motors is hiring ! https://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/s...1#post30831471

  20. #20
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    I will check across the radiator for colder spots. I *was* pretty sure about the temps, but I will check again.. After a shorter drive then though.
    Good to know the correct temp of the exit hose. It's higher than I expected.
    No plastic pipes as far as I know. Just rubber.
    Sadly I don't have the old hose anymore. I will buy new ones for the radiator, and see if I can flush the radiator that time. I'll get a better working spot for that. I hope the E36 hoses have the right length. Probably not exactly, but I'll look into that.
    I see no kinks in any of the coolant hoses, and no cold sections.
    I have next week off, so I will probably have some time to do stuff. Thanks!
    ^ true story



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  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmwdirtracer View Post
    On an M52 engined car, I expect to see the top hose somewhere between 190 F (88C) and 200 F (94C). Furthermore, I expect the bottom hose to be about 160F (71C) to 170F (77C).
    I might be wrong, but based on a comparison between the expected temps you are quoting and the ones read by 323i E30, there does seem to be an issue with the radiator, because while the top hoses's temp readings are higher than expected (105c / 88c to 94c), the bottom hose's ones are lower than expected (62C / 71 to 77C).

    And based on the location of the temp sensor (I don't know where it is, closer to the top of the radiator or the bottom), it could explain while the needle sits further than it should.
    Last edited by Breeze1; 07-10-2018 at 07:15 AM.
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  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by 323i E30 View Post
    I quickly got some readings: Top left of my radiator was at 105C (221F) and the exit hose was at 60C (140F) and rose to 62C (143F) in seconds.
    Further to my previous comment replying to bmwdirtracer, here is a "wild guess": either the rad is clogged, which would explain why the temps before the clog are abnormally higher than expected and the ones after abnormally lower (coolant before clog gets stuck > temp rises abnormally; less coolant than expected flowing after the clog > temps are lower than expected since less "effort" is required from the rad to cool it down) OR the rad is not at fault and the 105C you're reading on top is due to an issue occuring before the coolant gets to the rad: one way to verify that might be to read temps not only on the rad, but on the parts that precede it, namely the tank and the big hose coming from the engine (since the thermostat has been changed, as well as the pump).
    If the temp reaches 105C before it gets to the rad then it probably isn't faulty.
    Last edited by Breeze1; 07-10-2018 at 08:02 AM.
    "If you have integrity, nothing else matters. If you don't have integrity, nothing else matters." Alan K. Simpson.
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  23. #23
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    Hi Breeze.
    Thanks for your insight. I’ll make sure to flush the radiator when changing the hoses.
    I’ll get some more temp readings as well.
    ^ true story



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  24. #24
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    Today I replaced the hoses, flushed the radiator and got some new temp readings (see poorly shot vid).
    I did catch the water that came out of it, but there wasn't anything worth mentioning in it. Water came out easily too.
    Top hose was half an inch short though, and the bottom hose half an inch too long for a perfect fit.
    There's no change in the situation.
    Any ideas on what to check next?

    ^ true story



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  25. #25
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    Might be worth trying to flush the block perhaps? all hoses off, radiator. duct tape up your hose pipe and see if everything's flowing freely.
    Could pay to investigate this all the way:-)

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