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Thread: M50tub30 stalls when warming

  1. #1
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    M50tub30 stalls when warming

    Freshly built 3.0l with 0 miles and 15 ft. Block was bored 50 over to fit new piston and rings. Machine shop did block work. Running on stock red label dme with no cel while running.
    The car starts cold perfectly. Runs well, revs freely. As soon as it gets to about the first hash mark on the coolant temp gauge it stalls almost immediately. Then the starter cannot turn it over. If I let it cool off it then free's up and the process starts over again. No loss of coolant.
    I have no idea what's going on with it. I installed a 2nd new head gasket as I thought maybe it was hydrolocking. Turns out it isnt. Is it possible thermal expansion is locking the engine up until the rings set in?
    Z's are for old men too afraid to drive fast anyway.

  2. #2
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    It shouldn't be locking up. It sounds like it is. What was the piston clearance? Crank and rod bearing clearance? Ring end gap?
    '94 325i Sedan, Arctic Gray: UUC LTW FW, EVO 3 and DSSR, +.020 Maxsil pistons, ASC delete, Eibach shocks/springs, 16" contour reps 238k
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  3. #3
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    The machine shop did the ring clearances with the piston to make the block fit them. The rings where .50 printed on them and I assumed the machine shop did those with the gap as well. I trusted them and didn't check. Would you normally have to gap .50 sized ring still with a bore to .50 over? My bearing clearances where all at .002" to .0015". ... ok have to call them to see what the he'll they did or didn't do with what I paid for.
    Last edited by M3blitkrieg; 05-24-2018 at 11:17 AM.
    Z's are for old men too afraid to drive fast anyway.

  4. #4
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    Have you turned the crank over by hand with the engine cold versus warm? Perhaps the motor is not locking up but rather the temp is getting high enough to enter the open loop control and it is stalling out at this point. The starter may be going out and just struggling when warm and is just a coincident. Perhaps this is a long shot but a breaker bar on the crank would give you some direction.

  5. #5
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    The engine turned easy with plugs out. Much easier after the initial start up and idle for a while. It locked up. I literally pulled the head off, checked everything there, new head gasket again and put it back together. It still locked up again. Now it turns a bit easier with the plugs out and I can pretty much do it with a 6" ratchet on the crank bolt just like a normal engine.
    Z's are for old men too afraid to drive fast anyway.

  6. #6
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    I just went back to it after letting the car sit 4 hours. It Starts like nothing is wrong in any way. It's going to suck ASS pulling this entire engine apart to check ring gap. But it is what it is. Live to learn i guess. It just super uber sucks learning every mistake at once.
    Z's are for old men too afraid to drive fast anyway.

  7. #7
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    I called the machine shop. The head guy assured me the rings are in spec. The pre gapped rings matched the pistons and that's what he used to bore the block to. So I'm wondering if maybe a dry bearing is getting hot and freezing somewhere. I think I remember 2 rods I put on piston in the other direction compared to the rest. But I read on this forum that it didn't matter what direction the rod was faceing, so I doubt that.
    Z's are for old men too afraid to drive fast anyway.

  8. #8
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    For verification, at the point that it warms up and dies, can you turn it over by hand? (Plugs out.) My main concern is that if you do have a bearing expanding to the point of freezing, you'll need to tear the block down to find it. Personally, I would go the extra mile to verify everything prior to that point.

  9. #9
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    Sounds electric issue to me. Your engine is going into closed loop (not open loop) and starts using sensors. One of your sensors is missing or broken and therefore the engine can no longer continue and has to cool down to go back to open loop

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by ultimatetester View Post
    Sounds electric issue to me. Your engine is going into closed loop (not open loop) and starts using sensors. One of your sensors is missing or broken and therefore the engine can no longer continue and has to cool down to go back to open loop
    Oops, your right, I meant to say closed loop in my post

  11. #11
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    I got ahold of the seller of the rings and he said the rings are indeed pregapped. The machinist said he is 1000% sure the bore is perfect for the pistons.
    The engine sure is hard to crank after it's sets. It has to be a bearing that sets up. I hope I can get the oil pan off while the engine and trans are in the car. I plastiguage everything multiple times, so I'm really not sure where to start. But I will figure it out.
    Z's are for old men too afraid to drive fast anyway.

  12. #12
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    You can get the pan off, you just need something to hold the engine from the top. If you don't have a hoist, harbor freight sells one of those engine supports that rest on the inner fenders. If you do get that engine support from harbor freight, its easier to put the support in place, then raise the engine from underneath the car and take the slack out up top and then you can release the engine from underneath.
    Attn. NEWBIES: Use the search feature, 98% has already been discussed.
    Click the search button, select "search single content type", select the "e36 sub forum" specifically, try the "search titles" then try the "search entire posts".

  13. #13
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    A development. In a drunken stuper, I decided it was a smash and pass desicion. I fired it up and drove it until it stalled. I noticed it didn't stall until I let off the throttle. I'm now thinking it is indeed a ecu issue or tune issue. I then remembered I have a eBay tune chip in it. So il be swapping for a stock tune chip and seeing if that makes any difference. Il be so relieved.
    Z's are for old men too afraid to drive fast anyway.

  14. #14
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    The crank sensor wire was pinched in the intake. It did run a little smoother after that. Then I tried with the maf unplugged. It warmed up almost to ot. But it still stalled after revving. I swapped dme, and it didn't even want to start. But that was before the pinched wire was found. So I might try that again. If this makes anymore clues. Feel free to post.

  15. #15
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    It's getting better and better. Now it sits at ot for a minute or two before the idle gets slightly erratic and it stalls. Now the maf is plugged in also. I found the icv to be buzzing too as the car stalled and sar with the power on. I unplugged it and the buzz went away. So new icv is on the way.

  16. #16
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    I tried the other used icv I got off a guy last year I forgot I had. It didn't seem to make a difference besides the buzz went away.

  17. #17
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    I swapped in my red label 413 dme and it fired for half a second and nothing still. I swapped chips with the other dme and tried every combination and only the turner tune chip I have will run the car. So, it appears that it simply isn't true that any stock red label for will run the 3l stroker. For the record it's a 95 modelbyear car with a chipped key that came with a silver label dme. So a red label dme should have been a red delete with the ewsl chip as far as I know from what has been posted on this forum site.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by jc43089 View Post
    It shouldn't be locking up. It sounds like it is. What was the piston clearance? Crank and rod bearing clearance? Ring end gap?

    These are the same questions I had.

    It sounds like the clearances are too small and the expansion of parts is pulling the engine to a halt.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmc1590 View Post
    For verification, at the point that it warms up and dies, can you turn it over by hand? (Plugs out.) My main concern is that if you do have a bearing expanding to the point of freezing, you'll need to tear the block down to find it. Personally, I would go the extra mile to verify everything prior to that point.
    +1 I think it's really important to know what's the situation here.. Do the pistons really seize up in the cylinders, being a mechanical problem, or can they move freely and it's probably an electric or DME issue..
    If the engine really get 'stuck' when it's warm, I wouldn't keep on trying because you'll probably damage more and more parts of the engine, I'd reckon.

    When you write "Then the starter cannot turn it over.", you mean that the engine is totally seized and won't turn at all? Even with the spark plugs out? Do the lights of the instrument panel and interior lights diminish in intensity when you run the starter? Does the starter make some noise? What's the battery voltage before and while using the starter?
    Last edited by ed323i; 05-28-2018 at 08:49 PM.

  20. #20
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    I replaced the blue coolant temp sensor and it immediately improved. now it idles at ot for about 5 minutes before it decides to get iffy. the engine apparently doesn't lock up, the starter gets weak. after it stalls, i turn the key, the dash goes completely dim, the lights pulse with the sound of the starter. sometimes it manages to start right back up with the extremely slow cranking. it then idles for a few more minutes before it does it again. It certainly seems as though being driven or revved quickens the symptom. the engine makes absolutely no sounds, pings, knocks, ticks. its quiet enough that i can here the injectors turning on and off.

    - - - Updated - - -

    I found almost 14v with the alternator at the battery. Swapped with a known working from a friends car, stayed the same. consistent voltage while revving.
    Z's are for old men too afraid to drive fast anyway.

  21. #21
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    I havent gotten to turning the engine over with the plugs out after a stall yet... its hot engine after all. but i think thats moot at this piont, as it sometimes starts directly after a stall if it manages to crank over.
    I really feel i have to get a live data to see what is going on. i feel its more electrical or computer orientated, seeming how much it improved with thee newish icv, coolant temp sensor.
    Will a bad 02 sensor stall an obd1 car?
    Z's are for old men too afraid to drive fast anyway.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by M3blitkrieg View Post
    I havent gotten to turning the engine over with the plugs out after a stall yet... its hot engine after all. but i think thats moot at this piont, as it sometimes starts directly after a stall if it manages to crank over.
    I really feel i have to get a live data to see what is going on. i feel its more electrical or computer orientated, seeming how much it improved with thee newish icv, coolant temp sensor.
    Will a bad 02 sensor stall an obd1 car?
    I don’t think it’ll stall. You sure you hooked up the sensors correctly? The icv is also working correctly?

  23. #23
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    It sounds like you are on the right track with electrical problems, also have you done a smoke test for leaks? Does the ICV spin freely inside?
    '94 325i Sedan, Arctic Gray: UUC LTW FW, EVO 3 and DSSR, +.020 Maxsil pistons, ASC delete, Eibach shocks/springs, 16" contour reps 238k
    '93 325is Coupe, Schwarz, work beater 299k
    '89 325i Vert, Alpine White: 5spd swapped. Sold
    '04 Toyota Sienna XLE Limited AWD, In progress swapping to M50/G250, http://www.wibimmers.com/board/index...nna-25i-build/
    '05 Volvo V70 R, 6mt, mostly stock, kid hauler 200k Sold
    '85 Toyota LandCruiser: Lifted, gas hog. 205k

  24. #24
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    I checked everything for vacuum leaks just now. Sprayed around with t.b. cleaner and nothing. I sprayed every hose and mating place and absolutely no change. I installed a working icv, that was loose on the inside, also cleaned.
    It just ran the longest it ever has, it idled for a bout 10 minutes, I took a short short short drive and it has a problem getting to idle after I let off the throttle and begin braking. I had to maintain a bit of throttle so it wouldnt die. It idled for another 10 or 15 minutes never going above half way on the temp sensor before it randomly started to sputter a bit then very shortly stalled. Like it just gave up and quit. It has amazing torque. LOL! I dropped the clutch at 2.5k and the tires broke free like in dirt.
    The engine turns over fine after a stall.
    What's agitating is the starter kills the voltage. My windows all go up uncontrollably. After i go to put them down they drop all the wat and won't raise up after that.

    - - - Updated - - -

    I just managed to power through a stall scenario as I was typing my last post. If I held the throttle open to where it would revv at about 2.5-3k, the car wouldn't stall, it idled ok for a short while after that.

  25. #25
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    I'm 100% sure all the sensors are plugged in correctly. I labeled the few that are similar to each other. Blue taped the blue temp sensor. Labeled the crank and cam, noted the oil presser plug had only 1 pin in the dual pin socket ect.

    - - - Updated - - -

    I'm just about given up on anything. Il just take it to a shop so they can run fuel pressure check, live data check every sensor and it's values.

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