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Thread: Track cars - What bushings do you run?

  1. #1
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    Track cars - What bushings do you run?

    Hey guys,

    Looking to order bushings for my E36 HPDE car build. Looking at AKG or Condor UHMW bushings for the whole rear end (Differential, subframe and RTAB).

    Any real experience input would be appreciated.

    Also, is anyone running monoball RTAB? Any input?

    Thanks

    Sam

  2. #2
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    on my second season with condor UHMW -- so far so good. Don't have much to compare it to, I had stiff delrin in before but swapped it out for this, I made so many other changes on the car at the same time that I can't compare just the bushings. The car is solid though, I have UHMW or spherical bearings everywhere

  3. #3
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    3 - E30 M3s, '04 Ford F350, '06 Audi A3
    Spherical everywhere that moves.
    Solid aluminum rear subframe and diff.
    Red loctite on everything threaded
    Feels like a go kart
    jimmy p.


    88 E30 M3 Zinnoberot - street
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  4. #4
    mslevin's Avatar
    mslevin is offline Have you checked RealOEM? BMW CCA Member
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    I use AKG 75D poly bushings pretty much everywhere. Great quality products and still comfortable enough to drive on the street sometimes.

  5. #5
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    Have used Condor/AKG in my builds so far with no issues.

  6. #6
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    '97 M3, '17 GSW 4Motion
    Bimmerworld solid rubber engine mounts
    Rogue rubber? tranny mounts
    AKG 75D LCAB bushings (also ran bimmerworld TrackCABs but they weren't legal for my class)
    AKG 75D subframe bushings (want this this stiff to hold rear suspension alignment)
    AKG 95A diff bushings (i wanted softer for some drivetrain compliance and to load "with" the engine/tranny mounts)
    OEM RTABs with limiters (this should be rubber or a bearing, its a multiaxis rotation)

    I'm happy with it all.
    COMSCC T70 E36 M3

  7. #7
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    powerflex

    bw

    akg


    uuc


    all good to me

  8. #8
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    I've never had any luck at all with urethane or delrin bushings or mounts. Most failed extremely quickly and/or didn't fit that well.

    I'm using ask of the M3 factory solid mounts & bushings. The motor mounts are BMW factory from a 750 with the locating pin ground off. All of this stuff works great & the car handles exceptionally well.

    I also gave up on the brass guide pin bushings & braided brake lines.

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk

  9. #9
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    So after reading a bit.

    I'm thinking Condor UHMW subframe bushings and AKG Poly Diff with SRD or Ground control RTAB Monoball.

    I don't want to go aluminum subframe because of NVH but I don't want it moving. I think UHMW bushings are close to solid but transmit low amounts of NVH. And I had solid bushings in my E30 diff, it was a stiff, but transmitted a terrible amount of noise compared to a rubber bushing.

    I'm thinking AKG adjustable LCAB's up front.

    Anyone running the tubular LCA's in the rear? Any specific brand? I've seen GC, AKG and Megan. Any specific brand? I e-mailed Donovan about spring rates and haven't heard back yet, but might order GC with the suspension if I hear back.

    Sam

  10. #10
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    1999 BMW M3 Coupe
    My car is still dual-use, but:

    95A poly on all suspension bushings except for OEM RTAB's with limiters
    95A/80A poly motor/trans mounts (still on the fence about these - love the noise and feel, don't love the idle RPM vibration)
    bronze brake guide pin bushings
    1999 M3/2/5 - Titanium Silver - Daily Driver and Track Toy


  11. #11
    Def's Avatar
    Def is offline Lead Disagreement Eng PE
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    UHMW subframe mounts will probably still send a lot of vibe energy into the chassis. A stiff poly mount will offer a negligible amount of movement under load, but greatly damp vibrations to the chassis.

    Just my 2 cents on trying all of the above.


    For the maths to back it up, UHMW (modulus of ~110 ksi) will be about 10% as stiff as aluminum (roughly, 6061 modulus is ~100,000 ksi), but still essentially "rigid" for the loads going into it. While 95 A poly (modulus of ~2-3 ksi up to the range of compression you'd see in a bushing) will be about 2-3% as stiff as UHMW (or about 30-50 times as soft). It'll still take quite a lot of load into the subframe to get much movement, since the 95 A poly is probably ~5-10x stiffer than the factory bushings.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Def View Post
    UHMW subframe mounts will probably still send a lot of vibe energy into the chassis. A stiff poly mount will offer a negligible amount of movement under load, but greatly damp vibrations to the chassis.

    Just my 2 cents on trying all of the above.


    For the maths to back it up, UHMW (modulus of ~110 ksi) will be about 10% as stiff as aluminum (roughly, 6061 modulus is ~100,000 ksi), but still essentially "rigid" for the loads going into it. While 95 A poly (modulus of ~2-3 ksi up to the range of compression you'd see in a bushing) will be about 2-3% as stiff as UHMW (or about 30-50 times as soft). It'll still take quite a lot of load into the subframe to get much movement, since the 95 A poly is probably ~5-10x stiffer than the factory bushings.
    And what about 75D? Are we closer to the modulus of a UHMW?

  13. #13
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    As far as rear LCA's, just make sure you can adjust them with the muffler in place. Some, you can't. I use Turner Motor Sports. Pretty popular, and have never read a bad thing about them.

    Just for the record, if 95, or if using offset FCAB's, do not use powerflex in that location. They suck.

  14. #14
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    aero

    elaborate if u can

    I have a 99 z3 coupe...granted not an e36 per se , but the frt ends are same ..mines a not an m...

    and I use PF offset flcab...no issues here

  15. #15
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    On street tires (200tw), you can get away with poly pretty much everywhere beside the rtabs, OEM w/ limiters > poly imo. Monoball only good if not your DD.

    On r comps / slicks, you will need delrin, solid, or spherical everywhere, or misshifts will occur from the drivetrain movement. So look to match your motor & tranny mounts to everything you have going on in the rear.

    I run Garagistic delrin everywhere now, but it takes a quite a while to break in (1k+ hard driving, not for the feint of heart).

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by jrkoupe View Post
    aero

    elaborate if u can

    I have a 99 z3 coupe...granted not an e36 per se , but the frt ends are same ..mines a not an m...

    and I use PF offset flcab...no issues here
    I had 2 issues with them.
    1) Sometime in the life of of the actual FCA (yes, the metal part), BMW changed its design. The little reinforcement 'wing' on the FCA got bigger. PowerFlex FCABs slide over that little wing. I had the big wings. So, after much research and finally a discussion with the right person at Powerflex, they admitted that their off center FCABs do NOT fit all OE control arms because of this change by BMW. A lot of reshaping the Powerflex bushings (the outer one), and I made them fit.
    2) They didn't last that long before I started getting front end shimmy. I think about 10k mi. I replaced with AKG, and shimmy was gone. I've since changed to VAC. The AKGs add a LOT of camber, and push the front tire way into the front wheel well, causing clearance issues with wide tires.

    So if your's are on, and they went on without issue, you're good to go. And hopefully, they'll last a long time.

  17. #17
    joenationwide's Avatar
    joenationwide is offline Makes Cars Dance BMW E36 M3 Expert
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    My race car has OEM bushings everywhere except my RTABs are polyurethane.
    Maybe the OEM bushings aren't the best for a race car but it works for me.
    Never felt like they were slowing me down.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by joenationwide View Post
    My race car has OEM bushings everywhere except my RTABs are polyurethane.
    Maybe the OEM bushings aren't the best for a race car but it works for me.
    Never felt like they were slowing me down.
    Love it!

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by SamE30e View Post
    So after reading a bit.

    I'm thinking Condor UHMW subframe bushings and AKG Poly Diff with SRD or Ground control RTAB Monoball.

    I don't want to go aluminum subframe because of NVH but I don't want it moving. I think UHMW bushings are close to solid but transmit low amounts of NVH. And I had solid bushings in my E30 diff, it was a stiff, but transmitted a terrible amount of noise compared to a rubber bushing.

    I'm thinking AKG adjustable LCAB's up front.

    Anyone running the tubular LCA's in the rear? Any specific brand? I've seen GC, AKG and Megan. Any specific brand? I e-mailed Donovan about spring rates and haven't heard back yet, but might order GC with the suspension if I hear back.

    Sam
    The NVH on an e36 usually comes from the drivetrain bushings, not the subframe bushings. I run Revshift 75D poly rear subframe bushings with stock rubber for the diff and you'd never be able to tell it wasn't stock.

    Whatever you do, stay away from AKG rear subframe bushings. Their e36 design is not good. Tried them, got rid of them after a year.

    Also no reason to run adjustable LCABs IMO. If you need more caster run offset bushings or get the condor offset eyeball fcabs (also known as the treehouse eyeball fcabs). If you don't need extra caster run a centered bushing in the stock mount, or the condor centered eyeballs.

  20. #20
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    The reason to run adjustable control arm bushings is to even out caster. Caster side to side is rarely identical on the e36, and any difference creates "caster steer."

  21. #21
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    What about the bimmerworld RTABs that use a sealed ball joint? http://www.bimmerworld.com/Suspensio...aring-Kit.html Syncro design works has the same basic design. https://syncrodesignworks.com/products/rtabs Any reason not to run something like this?

    Stock with limiters doesn't seem ideal to me at all even for a street car.

    I noticed TC Kline has the monoballs that are replaceable for cheap. How long do you think they would last on a combo street/track car?
    Last edited by tvcasualty; 06-07-2018 at 09:07 PM. Reason: added links

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by tvcasualty View Post
    What about the bimmerworld RTABs that use a sealed ball joint? http://www.bimmerworld.com/Suspensio...aring-Kit.html Syncro design works has the same basic design. https://syncrodesignworks.com/products/rtabs Any reason not to run something like this?

    Stock with limiters doesn't seem ideal to me at all even for a street car.

    I noticed TC Kline has the monoballs that are replaceable for cheap. How long do you think they would last on a combo street/track car?

    I run the ball joint Bimmerworld RTABs for 15k and 25ish DEs. Still feel great, zero complaints.

    Only thing I feel slightly fooled about is the fact that they claim it uses OE replaceable ball joints yadda yadda. Well, they are not a BMW part number at all. You have to go through BW to buy replacements.
    [2004 330xi/6] Orient/Natural :: 117-142k :: ZSP :: ZPP :: ZCW
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    [1999 M3] Cosmos/Black :: 65-87k :: TCKline S/A (400/500) :: Turner plates :: UUC Front Sway :: PF RTABs :: AA Intake :: Borla :: XBrace :: TRM C2s :: CL RC6E :: Safety Equipment
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  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by NotUrAvgM View Post
    I run the ball joint Bimmerworld RTABs for 15k and 25ish DEs. Still feel great, zero complaints.

    Only thing I feel slightly fooled about is the fact that they claim it uses OE replaceable ball joints yadda yadda. Well, they are not a BMW part number at all. You have to go through BW to buy replacements.

    Right on that sounds like a good enough testemonial to me Im gonna order them.

    In the middle of my research i came across that drama on M3Forum. Honestly doesnt bother me one bit. As long as whatever is in there is replaceable and I dont have to drop $200 if they wear out Im good. I get companies wanting to keep something proprietary especially in a niche market.

  24. #24
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    Iím running Bimmerworld Group N motor mounts and RE trans mounts. The car also has Powerflex black RTABs and treehouse delrin FCABs. So far, everything feels good, but Iíve only been street driving it.

    Iíll probably do the rear diff and subframe before I take it out on the track for the first time. I was thinking Condor UHMW for the subframe and AKG 95A poly for the diff? Anyone have thoughts or experience with either? Thanks!

  25. #25
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    Front LCA: Ground Control offset sphericals. I like being able to control the caster (328s have less).
    If I were to do it again, I'd get the AKG stuff: https://www.akgmotorsport.com/produc...w-e30-and-e36/

    Front perches, I used the GC stuff, because (Again) it allows more caster than the Vorshlag stuff.

    Rear LCA: I think they're all about the same. I bought the Turner and like them a lot. https://www.turnermotorsport.com/p-3...ttrack/?pdk=Aw
    Also bought the turner "monoball" stuff for the inner mounts, and the forward mount on the factory control arm. (Don't forget the weld-in chassis reinforcements.)

    Finally, I bought the aluminum subframe bushings, and the aluminum diff bushings... with the exception of the front bushing where the bolt goes through near the input flange. I bought some delrin or whatever bushing for that one, in hopes of having a little flexibility to keep that bolt from braking.

    Also all the turner solid bushings for motor mount and tranny mount.

    Obviously this isn't a street car...

    HTH
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