My e21 will turn over very easy but not stay running longer than 2 seconds. No response to the throttle.
What I have done;
New fuel pump
New filter
New cold start
New injectors
New fuel
What I know;
The car has headers
The vacuum routing is not oem, but routed per a previous thread. Thank you.
The car ran 6 years ago before being parked on a lift at my company since then.
My thoughts; irrelevant
The pre-pump is good? Remember it has 2 pumps, might be gummed up from 6 years. Also the fuel accumulator. Do you have good pressure at the fuel distributor?
Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk
e30 325i, the mighty 4 door granma mobile....Gone
e39 528i, 4 door sports tank
Its in the gas tank: here is a diagram-picture from realoem,, No 9. E21 320i made from 04/1978-08/1979 use bmw # 16121121494 fuel pump in the tank,,bmw e21 320i mfg date: -01,02, 03/78--no in tank fuel pump according to realoem.
http://www.realoem.com/bmw/enUS/show...diagId=16_0005
Randy
Last edited by 320iAman; 05-19-2018 at 08:37 PM.
Pre pump is inside the tank, it is a low pressure that feeds the accumulator, and it the high pressure fuel pump. Put the ignition in run, you should hear the fuel pump buzz, loosen one of the fuel lines at thw fuel distributor and see if fuel sprays. Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk
e30 325i, the mighty 4 door granma mobile....Gone
e39 528i, 4 door sports tank
Pull an injector and see if gets fuel thru the fuel distributor and thru the injector, you can visually check the spray pattern as well. Air/Fuel/Spark.
Randy
Last edited by 320iAman; 05-19-2018 at 08:46 PM.
You'd have to measure the fuel 'system' pressure to know if it's correct (64-74 psi), but don't bother, yet.
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There was a big hose from the EGR valve to the underside of the intake manifold. Make sure it's plugged well and not leaking vacuum.
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Hopefully the control-plunger/piston is not stuck... If it is, it must be removed, cleaned, inspected and move smoothly in it's bore, full travel. Be very careful not to scratch it - it's a precision component.
After sitting for ~6 years, the control-plunger/piston may be stuck. While there's no fuel pressure, and assuming the control-plunger/piston is not stuck in the in/up(open) position: the air sensor-plate should lift easily. Do Not force the sensor-plate while checking it - otherwise the control-plunger/piston will get stuck worse and you may not be able to grab it with any tool (I made this mistake and had to disassemble the fuel distributor to fix it).
*If the control piston/plunger is stuck in the in/up(open) position, even just partially - the engine will flood with fuel - so be careful and be aware.
*There should be zero fuel coming out of the injectors while the sensor-plate is at rest(engine not running), while fuel system is pressurized.
The 2.0L control-plunger/piston looks like this:
To the left of the arrow is what's exposed while the meter is at rest-position, you can very carefully grab it with soft-jaw-pliers (ie: with tape). Must be very careful not to scratch it.
78-fd-piston.jpg
The 1.8L control-plunger/piston looks like this:
The skinny part is what's exposed while the meter is at rest position, less chance to mess up the control-plunger/piston with tool marks.
fd-meter-piston.jpg
Here's the meter assembly:
fuel_distributor.gif
Click on the pics to enlarge them.
Remember he would have to lift the sensor-plate for this test.
Can test this after confirming the sensor-plate moves freely and the control-plunger/piston is not stuck, as described above.
Last edited by epmedia; 05-20-2018 at 01:45 PM.
Tbd
He would also have to jumper the fuel pump relay socket.. Jumpering the FPR socket and lifting the sensor plate with ignition key in run position--you should hear the injectors--high pitch tone-unmistakable seeing the flow thru injectors means your getting fuel thru the fuel distributor and thru the injectors and they are spraying correctly or not--may have to be cleaned.
The warm up regulator must be in good shape too, if the cold control pressure is like 30-35 psi,,this will make very hard start up. This happens when they age and needs adjustment, ~ 20 psi generally.
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Anytime I do a restart of Car that been sitting a long time, Drain oil ,drop the oil pan, re-lubricate the bottom end on up, change the oil filter and pour the oil over the valve train, next pull the spark plugs -spray oil all around--mist, hand crank the motor a few times,, then use start fluid w/ ether with top end lubricant to assist in start up. A dry Motor is stubborn to get started, more friction. Drain coolant as well and renew before start up. The fuel must be good too. Oil Pump and its drive must be good too.
As too the oil if you have a sufficient drill and piece that matches the worm gear you run it and this gets oil thru the engine oil galleys to where it goes before start up, plugs out of course.
Sizeable check list for pre start.
Randy
Last edited by 320iAman; 05-20-2018 at 09:10 PM.
I can confirm the hose is plugged with no leak, but i think you are on to something with the plunger piston. The plate would not move at all, i noticed this when i was reassembling during the injector replacements. I though it was odd, but do not know these machines as well yet. I will try to remove and unstick. Any pointers?
e30 325i, the mighty 4 door granma mobile....Gone
e39 528i, 4 door sports tank
file.jpg
Ok, so i just pulled the top half of the unit off (where the injector lines go out) and the plunger attached to the top part of the unit depresses easily and ejects gas out of all 4 ports.
Looking down into the lower half of the unit now, i can barley see what i think is the control plunger you are speaking of. Is this where i would be pulling this from. And does it sound like that is the issue, knowing that the silver plate is stuck in the up position?
This is great stuff guys, Thanks!
Last edited by Mswilkes81; 05-21-2018 at 01:14 PM.
For reference, please refer to the 3rd picture I posted. There are three bearings in the 'lower-half' (meter housing/assembly).
The 'top half' you mention is the fuel distributor - do not disassemble the fuel distributor! I gather from your comments that the control plunger/piston is not stuck and there is something else stuck inside the meter housing. The meter housing attaches to the air-filter box.
Referring to your picture - The shiny thing you see inside the meter housing is a roller-bearing for the control plunger/piston. It is critical for this bearing to maintain it's tolerances and not bind at all. This bearing 'rolls' on the exposed end of the control plunger/piston.
Referring to the picture I posted - are you saying the sensor plate is stuck, even while the fuel distributor is removed? If so - the sensor plate is either misaligned, or the pivot-bearings for the main-lever are stuck. It is critical for these bearings to maintain their tolerances and not bind at all. To access, clean and lubricate these bearings, you must remove the little round dust covers (two, one on each side of the meter housing). You can see the dust covers on the outside of the meter housing - they are located at the pivot point of the main-lever.
I neglected to mention there's not a 'retainer' for the control plunger/piston on the 2.0L fuel distributor - so be careful not to let it slip out and get damaged. before the fuel distributor gets reinstalled, it's usually necessary to smear some grease on the end of the control plunger/piston to keep it from falling out.
* It's very easy to flood the engine with fuel - be aware of this. It is common to need to adjust the 'idle mixture screw' after making changes/repairs to the engine, fuel/air system, or vacuum leaks. The 3mm fuel mix screw is Very sensitive to adjustment - CCW is less fuel, CW is more fuel. 1/16 turn increments! If you hear the injectors 'whistle, squeal, or squeak' at any time while the fuel pump(s) get energized, this means the fuel mix is adjusted for too much fuel. Also - if the exhaust tail pipe ever smells like gasoline - the engine is probably flooded with fuel.
Be safe.
Last edited by epmedia; 05-21-2018 at 02:44 PM.
Tbd
Thank you again for the help, i can confirm that the plate is still stuck. I removed the distribution box from the meter housing, tried to push the plat to get the bearing to move upward as it should, and it did not. So it sounds like getting into the meter housing is the next step. Any other pointers before i venture in.
The meter housing is two pieces, upper and lower - eight nuts and bolts hold the two pieces together. The upper piece contains all the moving parts. You can see the two dust covers for the pivot bearings before disassemble of the meter housing. You may be able to separate the two pieces without having to remove the whole air-filter box.
The gasket (13511262077) between the two pieces of meter housing (volume air flow sensor) may only be available with an 'upper engine' gasket set. If you make a gasket, be aware the gasket thickness will change the idle fuel mix adjustment - same with any repairs of the air flow meter (sensor).
(darn terminologies!)
Pics:
http://www.realoem.com/bmw/enUS/show...diagId=13_0122
Just be careful with it and hopefully just the grease has dried and not rusty bearings.. Somebody should have a decent spare if needed.
Tbd
I had this issue previously on my E21. These cars are super susceptible to vacuum leaks. I went around and changed all the hoses and then problem was solved.
When i was diagnosing, I also found my muffler was shot; so maybe it doesn't hurt to check that or your catalytic converter (air flow blockage).
But definitely will start with the cheaper approach first.
Eli
Here is a video with sound of what it is doing, the only other comment i could add would be that i noticed the vacuum seems vicious. This could be normal for all i know.
Any Ideas Guys
Yep. Sorry you got left hangin' there!
Check some easy things first:
1) check the ignition switch:
Pin #2 of the diagnostic connector is the start/run bus. Make sure it has "+" battery voltage when the key is in "Run" position.
2) Check the ignition ballast/resistor wire:
Disconnect both wires from the ignition coil "+" side. See if the engine continues to run with a jumper wire between ignition coil "+" and the battery "+" (or diagnostic pin #2). IMPORTANT NOTE: do not leave the jumper wire connected for more than several seconds at a time, or you can damage the ignition points or ignition coil.
Alternatively you can go to the auto store and get an ignition resistor/ballast for a '57 Chevy Bel Air, or a '65 Ford Mustang and use this between your jumper wire. You probably going to need one anyways (to retrofit the OE ballast/resistor wire setup)... *The Ford resistor/ballast would be a much cleaner install than the Chevy's 'ceramic' style.
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If it's fuel related, maybe it just needs to be enriched a little. But if the exhaust tail pipe smells like gasoline after the engine dies (flooded with fuel), or if the spark plugs get wet from fuel (flooded with fuel), then this is not the case!
If the engine is getting flooded with fuel, then the fuel mix needs to be leaned (assuming all is good with the fuel distributor and air-flow/volume meter).
* use a long 3mm allen tool to adjust the idle fuel mix screw. The screw is very sensitive, even just the weight of the tool will change the fuel mix! Small 1/16 turn increments and keep track of the adjustments! CCW= less fuel. CW= more fuel.
1) If the hoses (3 pieces, connected to the metal "Y" fitting) on the suction side of the external fuel pump are the original cloth braided hoses, they need to be replaced - because sucking air bubbles and possibly seeping fuel.
2) There may still be a vacuum leak, this will cause symptoms of a lean fuel mix. There's a hose on the bottom of the engine-oil dipstick tube. Replace this hose if it looks suspicious. Double check everything else connected to the engine too. Sometimes just enriching the fuel mix can temporarily(for test purposes) compensate for a small vacuum leak.
3) there's a 50/50 chance the WUR needs cleaned (a dirty WUR will cause too much control pressure, making too much resistance for the meter plate to raise while the engine is running). Sometimes just enriching the fuel mix can temporarily(for test purposes) compensate for a dirty WUR.
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More later if needed, good luck, be safe and don't flood the engine with fuel!
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I forgot this:
Electric manual (pdf file) for the '78 320i. There's a picture of the diagnostic connector on page 4-12. It's in the fuse box. SAVE A COPY!
1978
http://www.findmymerchant.com/images...l/ETM_1978.pdf
Last edited by epmedia; 05-24-2018 at 05:48 PM.
Tbd
I really do appreciate the response and guidance.
Update:
I tried cranking it four or five times back to back, same results. I waited about 45 mins to try it again, this attempt actually caused some “sputtering kinda backfire feedback. I immediately rectangles it and it finally responded to the throttle when working it, for a few seconds. I repeated this 4 times today with the same results.
I decided to go ahead and change the accumulator cause I had a new one. After changing it, things went back to the way they were.
All this to say that I think it’s getting flooded! Seems to be a logical thought, with the symptoms.
These are my plans: pull and clean the plunger. I never did this because it appeared to be working, but in hindsight I think it may have been sticking in the upward motion (up in to the distributor) and not returning. This could cause flooding....correct?
If this does not work, I will be following your step by step procedures... because I can tell you know your s*i~
Yea, if there is any sticking of that control plunger/piston, then by all means, do take it back out and work on it. Same with the air-flow meter assembly if it has any binding.
Anytime that control plunger/piston is not at proper rest position while the engine is off, the engine can get flooded with fuel. Same with having the fuel mix adjusted too rich - this can cause some fuel to squirt/drip through the injectors when the engine is turned off. It does not take much fuel to wet the spark plugs! After things get 'dialed-in', you'll be golden and not have to worry about wetting the spark plugs (or diluting the engine oil, muffler explosions, etc..).
And definitely check that ignition ballast/resistor wire - when bad, you'll have some same symptoms as only getting fuel from the cold start injector while turning the starter motor. This wire needs replaced if it's OE - it only lasts for so long and starts falling apart inside the wire wrap!
Last edited by epmedia; 05-24-2018 at 11:04 PM.
Tbd
Some of today's observations,
1. I tried cranking the motor this morning just to see if it magically fixed it self. It did not. I turned it over 6 to 10 times and gave up, what is interesting is i forgot to reconnect the hose to the nipple side of the accumulator when i installed it yesterday. Should i have seen some gas under the car from when i cranked it earlier??????? Does this give any clues to a bad pump?
2. I also removed the fuel distributor and metering housing, I turned the key on for the pump to prime some gas while i watched the main inlet fuel line. I heard the pump hum but saw little gas come out. What should i have seen?
3. I also inspected the dipstick and mine does not have a place for a vacuum line, it looks like someone bypassed it?
I am cleaning all the parts this weekend and will reassemble. Just wondering if these are symptoms of bad fuels pumps.
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