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Thread: 2-1/2 Years and I’m still trying to solve my 1984 '33 Series Problem (Long Post)

  1. #1
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    2-1/2 Years and I’m still trying to solve my 1984 '33 Series Problem (Long Post)

    1984 733 129K

    533 and 633 should be the same. (apologies to moderator for posting on the other boards . . . . I'm desperate!)


    Yes, I have posted about this before but I have done more work and tried to summarize more accurately.


    I have owned this car for many years. It was running well. I was driving in town. It was idling OK at a stop light. When the light changed I had to accelerate in second gear to merge into a lane. The light ahead changed and I had to lift off suddenly and get on the brakes to stop. When I stopped the car almost stalled. It was running extremely rough, would hardly idle and would not accelerate. I was able to limp home in first gear.

    I have worked on this problem on and off for over 2-1/2 years and have not been able to resolve it!


    It starts OK but idles very rough:


    It is running way too rich at idle. It will eventually stall. All 6 spark plugs are black and wet.


    It is possible to speed up the engine by manipulating the gas pedal. Between about 1800 and 2200 RPM with a light load, it runs smooth and if you run it like that for a few minutes, shut it off and remove the spark plugs they are clean and dry.


    You can drive it in the neighborhood with difficulty, with a light foot on the gas and holding it in first. Once the RPMs reach about 2000 it runs OK and can be accelerated and decelerated a little, sounds normal but if you lift off the gas, the exhaust pops and crackles on the overrun which is not normal.


    The fuel delivery is not adjusting for some reason:


    - Too rich at idle, low speed and light load.


    - About right between 1800 and 2200 RPM and light load.


    - Misfires at higher RPM and heavier load – My guess it’s too lean under these conditions.


    -Problem is about the same hot or cold.


    -Compression test. All in spec per Bentley.


    -Eliminated vacuum leaks. (Smoke test). No difference.


    -Problem the same, with or without a foot on the brake.


    - Replaced fuel pressure regulator with OEM years ago, still looks new, not many miles on it.

    Fuel
    pressure is normal at idle per Bentley, (gauge at fuel rail). Return is not blocked.


    -Disconnected fuel to cold start injector. No change except hard to start when cold.


    -Changed out idle control valve with aftermarket ICV (metal with an adjusting screw, original

    VDO is plastic with no screw). Has 12V at connector, clicks when you apply 12V but doesn't

    “hum” or “vibrate.” Does not change the idle, connected or not connected, new ICV or oldICV.


    -Changed out thermo time switch and temperature sensors*

    (* ECU sensor new, others not new, all checked per Bentley)


    -Changed out idle control module behind glove compartment. If the ICM is connected the car

    starts and idles badly. If you disconnect it, it won't idle at all.


    -Checked TPS. Good according to Bentley.


    -Removed exhaust system. No difference, just loud.


    - I replaced AFM with new one probably over 10 years ago but only about 20K on it. Still looks
    new.

    Tested AFM (Bosch 9V battery test). Voltage changes smoothly when door/flap is opened and closed.


    -Visually inspected DME (Seimens): All harness connections and chip connection clean and DME looks fine inside. Tiny fuse is OK, reinstalled with DeOxit on the connections.


    - Changed out the ECU (Bosch), I have an identical spare, NOS and never been driven on the road. No difference.

    I have not checked the pin connections to the ECU for continuity according to Bentley and I need to do that.


    - I have checked every electrical connection I can think of and re-connected with DeOxit, nothing looks corroded,in fact it looks pretty good considering its age.


    Finally, here are a couple of things that may be clues:


    1. Youtube video of idle here:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SoTyLaXVbHE
    This is idling, foot off
    gas pedal
    .
    Note "swinging pendulum" vacuum gauge.


    2. Like most old E23s, mine leaks when it rains. We have had several weeks of warm dry weather and the interior of the car has finally dried out. It
    seems to run better. Not running right, but better, a little more drivable, I was able to drive it around the neighborhood this week for the first time in 2
    years.


    Has anyone encountered a similar problem with moisture in the car?


    Does a
    nyone near Coastal North Carolina have a parts car that runs, and would consider swapping out some parts such as AFM and FPR? I’m prepared to pay fair price for used parts or work out some agreement but I’m reluctant to throw money and new parts at this without any idea what the problem is.


    Thank you for your patience reading this long, complicated post. All help is much appreciated! John Kenneth

  2. #2
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    Kenneth - first of all it's good to see another NC guy here! I'm a terrible wrench, but does your car have a cat? If so, I'd see if it is toasted and there's stuff in there. I was amazed at how much better my car was when I addressed the toasted cat...

  3. #3
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    Thanks e24mpwr, it's good to be back on an E24 board, my first love was a '79 633 Euro . . . one of these days I hope to own another 6er.
    Yes, the 733 has the original cat. I had the same thought and disconnected the entire exhaust at the flanges and cranked it up. You may have heard it depending on where you live in NC! No difference in the way it ran so I think that eliminates the cat. Also, it runs quite well in the narrow 1800 to 2200 RPM range. No misfire and clean spark plugs.

  4. #4
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    Tossing this out based on my 86 635. O2 sensor...if it has one, assume so. Also distributor cap can get micro cracks. Cannot see them but they have an effect. These are two things you did not mention.
    Rob E3

  5. #5
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    Two things, fuel pressure at idle is not a good gauge of fuel pressure. Fuel pressure under load could be a problem. So you have to be sure of fuel delivery before you can move on to anything electrical.

    Have you had the fuel tank out of the car? Have you had the lift pump out of the tank and looked inside the tank and had your hands on the lift pump sock?

    That's fuel delivery, and you can not assume anything. You must know if the tank is clean, if the lift pump sock is clean and the pump is functional (very common malady) and if not, the main filter isn't clean either even if it's new and if so, very possibly the main pump is restricted also and you won't know this by idle fuel pressure. If all this is proven OK...

    I didn't see where you've had the distributor cap off. (rsheiman)

    BTW... my car sat for a year because I was too stubborn to pull the dist cap. Went thru all the electrical, ecm in the floor measuring all the voltages etc... There's a thread where I pulled the dist cap.

    Don't "assume" anything, you need hard measurements and troubleshoot systematically. Don't buy anymore parts until you know exactly what to buy.

  6. #6
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    I’d certainly put a fuel pressure gauge on it and test on the road. Does sound fuel delivery related. Also don’t discount the stuff that u have already replaced. It’s not a bad idea to replace the dizzy cap and rotor. I had similar issues with the 2002 and a rebuilt dizzy, with new cap and new leads made a big difference.
    BMW’s
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  7. #7
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    Thank you all for replies! I have posted this on several boards and this is the only one where I'm getting any replies and what's more, replies that make sense!
    I started the car a couple of days ago but didn't venture out on the street.
    I have owned this car for about 20 years although not put a lot of miles on it for various reasons. Also a back burner project so I only get to work on it occasionally, hence my slow response to your posts.
    The car had a new fuel tank when I bought it. Satin finish black paint and original BMW part label still attached. After several years there was rust in the tank, I am very familiar with the symptoms. I have removed the tank on two occasions, scoured it with detergent and a handful of lug nuts, scoured it with phosphoric acid, rinsed dried and reassembled, the car ran fine, both pumps are working. My experience with that problem is the car will die unexpectedly, if you're lucky in the parking lot at Wal Mart, if you're not lucky, on the interstate, I experienced both. My current problem seems to be too much fuel, not starving for fuel.
    Fuel pressure: The original fuel pressure regulator went out several years ago and the symptoms were somewhat similar to my current problem. My car is running so rich at idle that all six plugs get black and wet looking in about 30 seconds of very rough idling. If you leave it longer, it will misfire and stall. When the original FPR went out, I had black smoke at the exhaust at idle. Even though it is currently very rich at idle, there's no black smoke, can't figure that out.
    I agree with other posters that the fuel pressure will vary with load . . . vacuum actually however, my problem seems worst at idle and if it were a fuel pressure problem, I would expect the fuel pressure to be very high at idle and it's not.
    Ignition: Never say never with an old car!! I must confess to having the same problem as Slofut above, how can it possibly be ignition when it runs sweetly on all 6 cylinders at about 2000 RPM? I haven't had an opportunity to remove the distributor cap in the past few days due to weather from Alberto but I will and report back.
    Finally, speaking of very wet weather, I'm trying to figureout if this problem is weather related. I cannot garage the car at the momentand there seems to be a difference in the way it runs depending on how damp thecar is inside. I have tried to fix the leaks, I'm familiar with the common leakpoints and haven't been able to fix them all.
    I know what you're thinking, damp weather, distributor cap,ignition wires and I will do more checking in that area but my hunch is itcould be dampness inside the car. I mentioned in my original post checking theelectronics and nothing obviously amiss. I will keep looking and investigatingand report back as to what I find.
    Thanks again for the help, I'm hoping something here willtrigger something in someone's memory and I can get the car back on the road.Thanks for all the help, John Kenneth
    PS GAZM3 I'm an expat Kiwi, probably explains why I'm sostubborn with an old car, I have family in Melbourne

  8. #8
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    Definetly put on a fuel pressure gauge off the rail and a wideband sensor with fuel mixture gauge. You will diagnose any fuel issues with some certainty rather than guessing. It’s good in an old car to have at least some monitoring on the air/fuel ratio.
    BMW’s
    90 E34 M5
    84 E24 M635csi standalone ecu with coil on plug
    94 E34 540i/6 SC 5-17psi Flex fuel/standalone ecu
    97 Z3 2.8
    97 E36 M3 euro SC still u/c


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    19 Volkswagen Amarok V6


  9. #9
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    Once you know it has fuel, check for spark. Here was a good post to diagnose no spark:

    The ECU can only tell if the engine is turning by the signal from the engine speed sensor. It won't fire the injectors or coil until it sees the first TDC pulse. Now, if the injectors are pulsing (as verified by a noid light, test light, or hearing/feeling them click) then you know the ECU has power and the speed and reference sensor signals are sending the pulses. If this is true, and you have no fire from the coil, check for power at the coil. If you have power at the coil, you can use a test light to see if the ground to the coil is being pulsed by the ECU (if no power, you need to investigate why, or you can temporarily run a fused jumper to the coil + from the battery +.) You can either connect the test light across the coil low voltage terminals, or you can connect one of them to the battery positive and the other to the coil negative. It shouldn't light up when you turn the key on, but it should flash when cranking. If you have verified that you have power to the coil and the test light doesn't flash, you have a bad ECU or bad ECU ground somewhere. If it does flash and you have no spark, you need a coil. Let me know how the tests go.

    1 lead (the coil +) gets power with the key on. The other lead gets grounded by a transistor in the ECU to charge the coil. When the transistor in the ECU pulls the ground, the field collapses and the charge from the coil finds ground through the spark plug.

    With the key on and the engine off, you will see 12V at the coil + lead and you also will see voltage at the coil negative terminal if the coil is installed. If you remove the coil, you will see 12V at the coil+ terminal and I think nothing at the other terminal, though it is not a test you need to do, usually.

  10. #10
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    The car runs OK between 1800 & 2200 RPM. It could be ignition related but not a complete ignition failure.

  11. #11
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    This was my dizzy cap, I had all kinds of logical reasons not to pull it and look. Car sat for a year with the ecm in the floor because I was pissed that it had so let me down... Thing is, it ran surprisingly well like this. Very hard to start, bad at idle, if I could nurse it above 2k it would rev on up. But then it started acting like the timing was all over the place, (it was!).


    Untitled by Bill Smith, on Flickr

    Untitled by Bill Smith, on Flickr



    Untitled by Bill Smith, on Flickr


    Untitled by Bill Smith, on Flickr


    Also, this is what a sock filter looks like in a 40yr old tank. This is off a new pump I put in about 4 weeks prior. Finally pulled the tank, cleaned and sealed and put in a high pressure tank pump. No probs since.


    Untitled by Bill Smith, on Flickr

  12. #12
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    The hole in the camshaft for the rotor was a bit rusty...
    Untitled by Bill Smith, on Flickr


    So I used this to clean it up. Then coated it well with rust off oil and a bit of never seize before I put the new rotor back on.

    Untitled by Bill Smith, on Flickr

    - - - Updated - - -

    Kenneth, your car could also easily have more than one problem, making it hard to troubleshoot. In the end, it's not a complicated car and if the engine isn't knocking from a bad rod or main bearing (catastrophic fail) then you'll probably find it was something relatively simple. Don't assume, verify.

  13. #13
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    I've had 2 other faults on similar vintage BMWs that result in erratic idle/running that I didn't see mentioned here -- 1) break in wiring connector to the temp sensor due to resistor soldered in as a factory fix to lean conditions -- tricks the ECU into running richer than intended. The resistor is soldered into the lead and buried under the rubber boot and the connection tends to crack resulting in no or intermittent connection. Peek under your temp sensor boot to check. Resistor can also fail. 2) Bad connector on crank sensor that also was intermittent and resulted in erratic running, especially when under load. At the time, I also think my mounts were weak, so there may have been more engine motion than there should be adding stress to the connector. Good Luck.

  14. #14
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    Great info so far. Agree with temp sensor, and distributor, and so forth. The interesting thing in your story of course is the sudden onset with sudden lift off the throttle, and persistent problems ever since.

    Even more interesting is this is what caused a similar problem in my M5 as I was driving it home (from just buying it, of all times). I came over the hill on the interstate suddenly facing stopped traffic (4 or 5 lanes of it). Sudden liftoff and hard braking and now the engine is idling like it is missing and runs rough. I JUST got the car and knew pretty much nothing about it.

    Cutting to the chase, after much fussing and expense, (including changing the dist cap/rotor, etc) later found the intake boot with a crack about 1/2 circumference, on the underside at the connection to the intake, kind of hidden, but HUGE. Also found pretty much all the other vacuum lines leaking or broken down.

    I think the sudden change in pressure caused at some of the vacuum system to let loose, or at least one big part. I know you said it was tested for leaks, but would not hurt to at least check the boot folds, etc....

    '84 Euro 635CSi Polaris/Pacific, for sale (maybe)
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  15. #15
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    Replying to Arctic745 and Sprocket

    Common to several posts are the various temp sensors including the dealer installed resistor (which I have) I have mentioned before, "anything is possible" but I think my symptoms are far worse than a temp sensor and don't seem to be temperature related since I have the same problem, hot or cold.
    I agree with your experience Sprocket, a sudden increase in vacuum when you lift off. When I first posted this, some time back, several people said "major vacuum leak" so I went through the intake system, ran a smoke test, fixed a few vacuum leaks and no difference as far as how it runs.
    I have a couple of replacement magnetic sensors, wires and connectors in good condition and plan to change those out. I always thought if there was anything wrong with them the car wouldn't run at all but I suppose a bad or intermittent connection could confuse the signal so that's worth a try. Also, I have yet to look at distributor. Again, runs OK at 1800 - 2200, smooth on all 6 so wouldn't expect it to be too bad but worth a look? absolutely.

    Appreciate all the help and input, I will keep you all informed of progress, John Kenneth

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kenneth1948 View Post
    Also, I have yet to look at distributor. Again, runs OK at 1800 - 2200, smooth on all 6 so wouldn't expect it to be too bad but worth a look? absolutely.

    Appreciate all the help and input, I will keep you all informed of progress, John Kenneth
    JK, that's an assumption. Costs much time in troubleshooting a problem on these cars, ask me how I know...

  17. #17
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    I keep coming back to that wet interior you have. That's the only thing that definitely made a change. Could it be as simple as condensation in the DME or ICV controller causing a transistor or regulator short to ground? I've opened more than one DME over the years that definitely had water stains inside the case. You'd replaced the DME, so I figured this was unlikely.

  18. #18
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    I Just would like to throw this suggestion out there.

    I had a 1983 633csi And I honestly had almost the identical problem I went through the list trying to figure out what was wrong with it.


    It turned out to be the Relector Pickup for monotonic on the flywheel which is used for monotonic 1.1 the flywheel had be installed incorrectly on the car and gave me hell for over 2 years similar to your issue.

    Nothing seemed wrong and around the 2k rpm mark she would run just fine but other then that it would run like poop.


  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kinetik View Post
    I Just would like to throw this suggestion out there.

    I had a 1983 633csi And I honestly had almost the identical problem I went through the list trying to figure out what was wrong with it.


    It turned out to be the Relector Pickup for monotonic on the flywheel which is used for monotonic 1.1 the flywheel had be installed incorrectly on the car and gave me hell for over 2 years similar to your issue.

    Nothing seemed wrong and around the 2k rpm mark she would run just fine but other then that it would run like poop.
    (It's Motronic...) Good info, but it would not install itself incorrectly all of sudden, right? It was fine, then it wasn't. Something let loose, probably vacuum or electrical (sensor, ground, whatever). Will eventually find it.

    '84 Euro 635CSi Polaris/Pacific, for sale (maybe)
    Home of the Silver Bimmers: '91 M5, '84 Euro E24, "99 E36, "98 E36, '02 E46 xiT (yes, all silver)

  20. #20
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    Have you tried disconnecting the battery for a few minutes then reconnecting? Probably won't work but I'd try it.

  21. #21
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    Had the battery in and out multiple times so that reset isn't working.
    Interesting comment Kinetik, if I'm not mistaken, your Motronic will be identical to mine and symptoms the same . . . hmm. As Sprocket says, can't be the pick-up pin on the flywheel as it was running OK but I need to go through and check all that and I do have another pair of wires to try. As you know the connections under the hood crumble over time with heat and age.
    Having a heat wave and too hot to work on the car for a few days. Upside of that is its nice and dry! Thanks for all the input, it's great to be on a "live" board again. I was starting to despair as all the old forums seem to be dying. John Kenneth

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kenneth1948 View Post
    Thank you all for replies! I have posted this on several boards and this is the only one where I'm getting any replies and what's more, replies that make sense!
    I started the car a couple of days ago but didn't venture out on the street.
    I have owned this car for about 20 years although not put a lot of miles on it for various reasons. Also a back burner project so I only get to work on it occasionally, hence my slow response to your posts.
    The car had a new fuel tank when I bought it. Satin finish black paint and original BMW part label still attached. After several years there was rust in the tank, I am very familiar with the symptoms. I have removed the tank on two occasions, scoured it with detergent and a handful of lug nuts, scoured it with phosphoric acid, rinsed dried and reassembled, the car ran fine, both pumps are working. My experience with that problem is the car will die unexpectedly, if you're lucky in the parking lot at Wal Mart, if you're not lucky, on the interstate, I experienced both. My current problem seems to be too much fuel, not starving for fuel.
    Fuel pressure: The original fuel pressure regulator went out several years ago and the symptoms were somewhat similar to my current problem. My car is running so rich at idle that all six plugs get black and wet looking in about 30 seconds of very rough idling. If you leave it longer, it will misfire and stall. When the original FPR went out, I had black smoke at the exhaust at idle. Even though it is currently very rich at idle, there's no black smoke, can't figure that out.
    I agree with other posters that the fuel pressure will vary with load . . . vacuum actually however, my problem seems worst at idle and if it were a fuel pressure problem, I would expect the fuel pressure to be very high at idle and it's not.
    Ignition: Never say never with an old car!! I must confess to having the same problem as Slofut above, how can it possibly be ignition when it runs sweetly on all 6 cylinders at about 2000 RPM? I haven't had an opportunity to remove the distributor cap in the past few days due to weather from Alberto but I will and report back.
    Finally, speaking of very wet weather, I'm trying to figureout if this problem is weather related. I cannot garage the car at the momentand there seems to be a difference in the way it runs depending on how damp thecar is inside. I have tried to fix the leaks, I'm familiar with the common leakpoints and haven't been able to fix them all.
    I know what you're thinking, damp weather, distributor cap,ignition wires and I will do more checking in that area but my hunch is itcould be dampness inside the car. I mentioned in my original post checking theelectronics and nothing obviously amiss. I will keep looking and investigatingand report back as to what I find.
    Thanks again for the help, I'm hoping something here willtrigger something in someone's memory and I can get the car back on the road.Thanks for all the help, John Kenneth
    PS GAZM3 I'm an expat Kiwi, probably explains why I'm sostubborn with an old car, I have family in Melbourne
    Hey Ken, I'm not sure about your 7 but the 6's computeris up above the glove box and if I remember right are very prone to moistier inclimates like yours. Just a thought but you say your interior is really damp,you might want to check it out, your brain box could be corroded and causingproblems, poor readings, or bad connections, just a thought.
    SprCpe
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    Built in Germany with love.
    Ostatecznym maszyny jazdy BMW

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sprocket View Post
    (It's Motronic...) Good info, but it would not install itself incorrectly all of sudden, right? It was fine, then it wasn't. Something let loose, probably vacuum or electrical (sensor, ground, whatever). Will eventually find it.
    Thanks on the pick up on the typo there. So, the other possibility is that the Relector actually brakes off and leaves a stub of itself. It's just tack welded on the fly wheel and that would be causing similar issue. I would honestly just get up under the car with a flash light remove the inspection panel and spin the sucker around and see if the relector is actually still there.


  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kinetik View Post
    Thanks on the pick up on the typo there. So, the other possibility is that the Relector actually brakes off and leaves a stub of itself. It's just tack welded on the fly wheel and that would be causing similar issue. I would honestly just get up under the car with a flash light remove the inspection panel and spin the sucker around and see if the relector is actually still there.
    Relector? What exactly is that? You mean the business end of the crank sensor? It's a Hall sensor, isn't it? (magnetic trigger)

    As for connections going bad, you got that right. My car tried to kill me on the interstate when that very sensor connection decided to disconnect at 75mph in the left lane... Not a pleasant memory, especially the tow truck ride home since I was stuck on the edge of the road with cars and trucks flying by and was not about to stand in front of the car to see what happened. Literally fixed it in less than a minute when I got home and saw the connection hanging (stupid design). But that was an absolute on/off thing, it will not run at all without that connection.

    '84 Euro 635CSi Polaris/Pacific, for sale (maybe)
    Home of the Silver Bimmers: '91 M5, '84 Euro E24, "99 E36, "98 E36, '02 E46 xiT (yes, all silver)

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sprocket View Post
    Relector? What exactly is that? You mean the business end of the crank sensor? It's a Hall sensor, isn't it? (magnetic trigger)

    As for connections going bad, you got that right. My car tried to kill me on the interstate when that very sensor connection decided to disconnect at 75mph in the left lane... Not a pleasant memory, especially the tow truck ride home since I was stuck on the edge of the road with cars and trucks flying by and was not about to stand in front of the car to see what happened. Literally fixed it in less than a minute when I got home and saw the connection hanging (stupid design). But that was an absolute on/off thing, it will not run at all without that connection.
    Sorry I'm probably using the wrong terminology. Refer to picture below to what I'm talking about. That Metal Tab that is used as a pick up can break off and become a poor source for signal. the car will still run "speaking from experience" test.jpg


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