The dumbest effing question yet to hit this forum.

[M3blitkrieg]

I just got my m50 block back last week from the machine shop where it was bored 50 over and all checked and double checked.. I was busy this week so i had a close friend assemble the engine with a checked 3.0l crank. I have seen him do many jeep and chevy builds and I assumed he knew what he was doing. Anyway he get the bottom end together. i turned it and it seemed right for a fresh hone and bearing set. He said he fallowed the spec sheet for assemble. So I put the head on that also had the machine shop bells and whistles done to it. i get the thing together, get the clutch and trans on, put it in the car. i go to check the timeing and it turns over like a bitch at the crank. it spun like it should with alittle resistance before but now it takes a pretty big bar to get it moving. theres no plugs in, and its in time right 1000% as the marks match every 2nd rotation of the crank. Anyway, i dump some oil in the cylinder and it gets slightly easier after a spin. It comes down to my friend not using assembly lube on the crank journals. He just lathered in engine oil, which thinned down over the couple days it sat waiting install now leaving me with probably dry clearances. .

Whats the best way to go about this? can i just dump oil in the thing and hand crank it to get oil to the journals? Dropping the pan and pulling the crank journals is not something I want to do. Or really can do since Ive returned the engine hoist.

[M3blitkrieg]

Will hand turning the engine give enough oil pressure to get oil through the crank and journals? I really dont want to have to hillbilly pop start it down a hill and risk ruining the crank and bearing i just spent $$$$ on.

[Turbohugh]

no assembly lube? You always use assembly lube when you assembly an engine [hence the name .. ]

That said maybe you can add some STP to it and crank it with the starter without fuel or spark [fuel will thin the oil]. Hand cranking wont do it friend.

[M3blitkrieg]

He says in his defense that he uses regular motor oil on all his builds, but he usually has them running in the car the same day so they dont dry out. Which is what other sources online say as well. This sucks azz.

[JDStrickland]

So, pour in some oil and turn the engine with the starter. The oil won't pump if you turn the engine with a breaker bar, but it will pump if the engine turns by the starter motor. Sure, it might be better to use assembly lube, but it won't kill the engine to crank it with the starter motor. It won't even kill it to let it start because the oil will pump long before the bearings wear out. Even if he coated the surfaces with motor oil, the oil will not dry out or run off.

[jc43089]

Leave the spark plugs out and crank it with the starter, then there is very little load on the bearings because there is no compression. It will also spin over much quicker which will pump more oil. You will hear the change in sound and the oil pressure light will go off. Then put the plugs and coil packs on and start it.

It's probably overkill but on engines that have been stored I typically remove the plugs and crank until there is oil pressure and then reinstall plugs and start it up.

[JDStrickland]

Leave the spark plugs out and crank it with the starter, then there is very little load on the bearings because there is no compression. It will also spin over much quicker which will pump more oil. You will hear the change in sound and the oil pressure light will go off. Then put the plugs and coil packs on and start it.

It's probably overkill but on engines that have been stored I typically remove the plugs and crank until there is oil pressure and then reinstall plugs and start it up.

This.

[jmc1590]

Ditto.

I'd also pull the fuel pump relay prior to cranking.

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[M3blitkrieg]

Truly the dumbest question ever it turns out. I left the plugs out, coils off. Cranked it with the starter. I heard this metal to metal sound. I thought for sure it was over with seized bearing! I was swearing at this guy and sweating in anger. I looked down mid curse and pointed out he didn't even put the accessory pulley on. That's when I seen a metal shaving. Turns out The bolts for the front crank assembly hit the engine face cover if the accessory pulley isn't there as a spacer. I put the pulley on. In my complete embarassment it Turns over easy. I apologized then yelled at him again for not being smart enough to call me a moron when I'm yelling for no reason. Haha. I'm so relieved.

[jc43089]

Glad it was no big deal. I have also used engine oil, Royal Purple HPS, when assembling if I am going to start it right away. It's really not different than an engine sitting all winter for storage. Oil does not totally run off of the bearing surfaces even if an engine is stored for 6 months.

[M3blitkrieg]

Yea, I was wondering. It was only 2 days. Cars sit for allot longer and don't try up. I owe my buddy a case of beer and a hefty apology. Now I think all's i have to do is figure how to make a getrag shift linkage work on a zf trans. Lol.

[Turbohugh]

Truly the dumbest question ever it turns out. I left the plugs out, coils off. Cranked it with the starter. I heard this metal to metal sound. I thought for sure it was over with seized bearing! I was swearing at this guy and sweating in anger. I looked down mid curse and pointed out he didn't even put the accessory pulley on. That's when I seen a metal shaving. Turns out The bolts for the front crank assembly hit the engine face cover if the accessory pulley isn't there as a spacer. I put the pulley on. In my complete embarassment it Turns over easy. I apologized then yelled at him again for not being smart enough to call me a moron when I'm yelling for no reason. Haha. I'm so relieved.

Love it when a plan comes together

Oh and #Pics


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[samy01]

i get the thing together, get the clutch and trans on, put it in the car.

and you blame him for not putting on a belt ? you should've seen that

he did nothing wrong. putting oil on bearings is the normal way to go, never heard of any lube or whatever. oil doesn't dry out. did you ever spill oil on the floor? it will be there 10 years later.

[jmo69]

The crank doesn't sit in oil in the car, so using your original thinking every time you park the car for 2 days the bearings would "dry out".

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[M3blitkrieg]

j mo, I know. I was thinking maybe because the oil passageways to feed the bearings are obviously dry on a fresh build as the oil pump hasent filled them yet it was possible the oil seepes out or into the supply holes in the crank or bearings.
Mr samy. It wasn't the belt he didn't put on. It was the accessory pulley. Who would have guessed the bolts are approximately .25 mm too long without it that hold the timing gear and serpentine belt pulley to the crank.
I'd have assumed many race guy might considered the pulley delete, and never read anything about BOLTS BEING A CUNT HAIR TOO LONG. I have never ever left oil on any floor for more than a few minutes as I'm not a slob. Thanks.

[samy01]

uuh ok i see have fun then

[shogun]

No fighting please, we are here to help each other and not to fight each other.

[spyderg0d]

Yea. Assembly lube certainly would relieve you of your dilemma. I would check your starter alignment anyway. I've seen starters shear off heavy duty sockets and wrenches like butter. If you can turn the crank easy before install and it's hard after, chances are it's that if the starter can't crank it. You should see the dash dim little when the starter is drawing amps.

[M3blitkrieg]

So I finally got it started. It ran well for about 5 minutes. I was bleeding the cooling system and blowing into the coolant jug to force coolant through when it suddenly stalled. Now it's very hard to turn over again although it's more as if it's semi hydro locked. I removed the coils and plugs again and it turns over fine although the tops of the piston look wet with oil or possibly coolant?
I heard a slight drip and hiss like fluids sizzling from the rear of the engine. Which makes me question the arp head studs installed on the new head gasket. I followed the torque specs in the 3 stages. Also, now that I think of it the block after machining had a very fine mill mark at The top as he removed The rust which was like .003" I think. The top of the block was not like glass as before and had very fine texture, but could grab with a fingernail. ... please don't tell me this machine guy did everything right except that... I didn't think to second guess the machinist.

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Is it possible the head gasket may have squished and relieved it's seal after the final torque of the Sep head studs? I just popped the valve cover and realised the 12mm 12pt socket does not fit nineteen the camshaft to tighten the head stud bolts ...

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20180415_095405.jpg

[jmc1590]

While not an expert in the area, the statement "can grab a fingernail " bothers me. Seems I've read something in the past that states that's too rough a surface.

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[M3blitkrieg]

It didn't quite catch the fingernail, but you could certainly feel it as you passed it over the surface as it was still fine. I assumed the composite head gasket would be able to grab it or fill it in as it crushed with the Viton coating that's on all the gaskets. But obviously I'm no expert either.
But I think I did read something somewhere about having to retorque the arp head studs after the engine has ran or Sat for a while to ensure the gasket doesn't collapse or something of the sort. But I just don't know from lack of experience.

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You can see in the pic that it was fine enough to make a shine, but not fine enough to make a glare of any sort.

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Or it made a glare, but not a reflection I should say.

[M3blitkrieg]

I would guess the ra finish on the block is about 110 to 120 from what i see compratively in google images. Is that too rough for a stock headgasket? If so I should be able to remove the head and coat the block surface in Viton and reset the head?

[M3blitkrieg]

So I'm going to remove the camshaft to check the arp head nut torque. If they are right then il be pulling the head to see wth happened. If it is indeed the block surface at fault il be calling the machinist and probably get him to do the block, the head port, a valve grind, and any other thing I can get for free.

[M3blitkrieg]

After even more research. I found some sources that say preload scatter with arp studs leave some symptoms like mine. I have to add that I didn't wait between torque steps. Also I used the engine lift hooks to set the engine and trans in the car which may have possibly had something to do with it when paired with possibly improperly torqued studs. It makes sense that the composite gasket squished or compacted when the engine was heating up for the first time and broke seal when I blew into the cooling system. Otherwise the gasket should have failed when it first ran right off the bat and stalled out if it was the finish on the block. Atleast this is my theory. Even if I'm wrong, I can't find a soarce for liquid viton or a reliable head gasket sealer. I'm absolutely dreading the idea that il have to pull this engine all over again and lug it back to the machine shop.

[M3blitkrieg]

Ended up pulling the head. Found out the victor reins gasket was defective. Pretty much could squish it with my fingers between the rings and where the coolant ports are on cylinders 2 and 3 as if it had an air bubble inside the gasket itself. The coating wasn't sticky or grippy at all, and it seemed brittle. The block is a good ra, probably about a 60 to 80. 20180520_141206.jpg

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I double checked the head for cracks and straightened and it's still unscathed thank god.