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Thread: Thoughts on bolt-ons for Dinan/RMS Stage 2 Supercharger

  1. #1
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    Thoughts on bolt-ons for Dinan/RMS Stage 2 Supercharger

    Hello all,

    I am hoping to improve the performance and reliability of my supercharger setup, which is as follows:

    Dinan/Vortech V2 supercharger
    RMS aftercooler
    RMS 8-rib setup with 6 crank pulley and 3.45 or 3.43 blower pulley
    M50 manifold
    42lb injectors
    Porsche 803 MAF
    Nick G. tune
    Dinan exhaust

    The car currently has 61k miles and I've just replaced both 02 sensors and catalytic converters with new OEM units. I understand and don't dispute that the most efficient way to make power is to go with turbo. However, I need to stick with my current setup as it is important for me to 1.) Pass the CA smog test the right way, and 2.) Use as many period correct parts as I can to build my car.

    Recently, the car put down 362rwhp and 300lbs of torque on a Dynojet dyno at 9-10psi. In the past few years, I've been getting between 355rwhp-365rwhp on the 1st pull in 3rd gear. After that, the car would lose around 15-20rwhp on the 2nd pull and thereafter. Also, the oil tends to get hot even under moderate driving conditions. It's not atypical for me to see 250 degrees on the gauge after driving on the freeway for 20-30 minutes in mildly warm weather.

    As most of you know, supercharged S52s don't usually feel like it's supercharged unless you're revving the engine past 4k RPM. That said, I was wondering if anyone of you who's experienced in this area can provide some advice as to how I may improve the mid-range power of the car; and perhaps add a little more top end power as well? I would be happy to see anything that's close to 400rwhp.

    From what I've gathered, the easiest way increase power is by replacing the blower pulley with a smaller one and adding a meth injection kit. The problem with this is that I am not sure if this is going to provide the additional low end power that I wanted. Also, I am not sure about whether having a meth injection kit is going to reduce the overall reliability of the car since there is now one more thing that I have to worry about breaking.

    I was looking into getting a set of RMS headers but really didn't get much positive feedback on them from others. Many said they are not worth the money and won't provide much power increase.

    I was also thinking about getting an oil cooler to remedy the issues associated with the high oil temperature. Does anyone know what type/brand of oil cooler I should get and what's the cost of having one installed?

    What are your thoughts? Any comments and opinions would be highly appreciated.

    Jon
    Last edited by Baby ///M3; 04-20-2018 at 01:02 PM.

  2. #2
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    Try a 3.64 diff. It multiplies torque more.

    Water meth is great to help intercooling and to allow more boost safely. That will help reduce power loss when hot and make a minimal positive change at lower rpm. Centrifugals make peak boost only at peak rpm. At half peak rpm, they make only about the square root of peak boost. So your system that makes 9 psi at 7000 might make 3 psi at 3500. It’s teally hard to make more low end. Stepped headers would be great (they help torque) but no one has made them for these engines since kromerkraft stopped. You could ask him if he would make you a set — he is still around.

  3. #3
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    Thank you for your comments and feedback.

    Sorry. I should’ve mentioned that I am currently running a 3.46 rear diff with a G420 six-speed gearbox. I had a hard time choosing between a 3.46 and a 3.64 but decided to go with the former because I had a 3.91 before.

    How do the RMS headers compare to stepped headers? I don’t mind getting the headers as long as they give me a little more low-end to mid-range power. Correct me if I am wrong but I believe headers also lower the boost a bit. If so, does it mean that the car won’t run as hot with headers?

    Could also you recommend a good meth injection kit?

    Thanks again for your help.

    Jon
    Last edited by Baby ///M3; 04-21-2018 at 03:17 AM.

  4. #4
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    A 3.64 would go better with your 6 speed and supercharger. It’s expensive and not a massive change but there are not many things you can do so it’s worth considering. I ran a 3.23 then 3.38 then 3.64 while supercharged and liked the 3.64 the most.

    The Aquamist is probably the best water meth system. The HFS3 would be a good choice. I run the HFS4, which is really meant for DI engines so I can’t use most of it’s added benefits.

    I ran stock, BMP, replica USA Supersprint and RMS headers while supercharged. I don’t think bigger headers will improve low end power. Usually the opposite occurs. They also don’t mate up to a stock midpipe, which could lead to CARB problems. The best headers to add low end power would be KromerKraft stepped if you can get a set and there were a few sizes—not sure which would be best since I have not studied the specs in a while. They won’t fit either. A good direct fit option would be bavauto shorties. Don’t buy BMP shorties.

  5. #5
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    For an oil cooler, use an S54 OFH, a Bimmerworld M12/14 adapter bolt for the vanos line, a Bimmerworld 10AN adapter for the cooler lines, and 10AN cooler lines to a 10 or 13 row cooler. Beware braided hose looks cool but saws into anything it rubs against. You will have to trim your alternator duct to fit.

    Some use the factory Euro hardlines and Euro cooler that fits under the Euro radiator.

    Some also use an oil cap adapter for the hoses instead of an S54 housing.

    I had hot oil also with the centrifugal.

    I used a aftermarket pusher fan in the AC that was thinner and a larger air to water heat exchanger for the RMS cooler. I think it was an aftermarket part for the supercharged Ford Mustang. I mounted it below the bumper and put two slim 7 or 8 inch puller fans on the back of it. I used a Bosch pump that was used in the Ford.

  6. #6
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    Oil cooler. These pics are of my M Rdsr (2-seater) but otherwise the same S-52 & Dinan/Vortech setup.

    S-54 oil filter housing



    Earl's Performance Pro-Lite 350 hose (<4' required in my case) + AN adapters and 45* reusable hose ends. Outer weave is polymer (so it won't cut anything) and is an order of magnitude easier to cut cleanly than braided stainless__and it blends in better than the "look at me" s/s hose.





    Factory S-54 oil cooler ('01 M Rdstr version) TMS adapters and straight hose ends, mounted with all factory parts to the bottom of an S-54 M Rdstr radiator.


  7. #7
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    That oil cooler will fit onto a Z3M S54 radiator and that radiator will bolt into a regular E36.

  8. #8
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    It also fits onto a CSF radiator.
    '03 911 Turbo 6MT fun car
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  9. #9
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    Many thanks for your help!

    Based on the information I am reading I think I'll begin with the mods. that allow the car to better cope with heat soaking and hot oil issues more effectively first before I add more power. An oil cooler is a must. Do you have any pictures showing what the heat exchanger looks like? Is it a stand alone part? Or does it replace the RMS unit?

    If all goes well, I'll look into the BavAuto shorties. Do they tend reduce any top-end power?

    Is there a need to retune my software with the oil cooler, heat exchanger or the headers?

    Jon

    Quote Originally Posted by pbonsalb View Post
    I ran stock, BMP, replica USA Supersprint and RMS headers while supercharged. I don’t think bigger headers will improve low end power. Usually the opposite occurs. They also don’t mate up to a stock midpipe, which could lead to CARB problems. The best headers to add low end power would be KromerKraft stepped if you can get a set and there were a few sizes—not sure which would be best since I have not studied the specs in a while. They won’t fit either. A good direct fit option would be bavauto shorties. Don’t buy BMP shorties.
    Quote Originally Posted by pbonsalb View Post
    For an oil cooler, use an S54 OFH, a Bimmerworld M12/14 adapter bolt for the vanos line, a Bimmerworld 10AN adapter for the cooler lines, and 10AN cooler lines to a 10 or 13 row cooler. Beware braided hose looks cool but saws into anything it rubs against. You will have to trim your alternator duct to fit.

    I used a aftermarket pusher fan in the AC that was thinner and a larger air to water heat exchanger for the RMS cooler. I think it was an aftermarket part for the supercharged Ford Mustang. I mounted it below the bumper and put two slim 7 or 8 inch puller fans on the back of it. I used a Bosch pump that was used in the Ford.

    Thank you for your feedback and comments.

    Do you know which V2 trim did Dinan supply for the S52?

    Could you let me know the cost associated with sourcing all the parts and getting everything installed?

    Jon

    Quote Originally Posted by Randy Forbes View Post
    Oil cooler. These pics are of my M Rdsr (2-seater) but otherwise the same S-52 & Dinan/Vortech setup.

    S-54 oil filter housing



    Earl's Performance Pro-Lite 350 hose (<4' required in my case) + AN adapters and 45* reusable hose ends. Outer weave is polymer (so it won't cut anything) and is an order of magnitude easier to cut cleanly than braided stainless__and it blends in better than the "look at me" s/s hose.





    Factory S-54 oil cooler ('01 M Rdstr version) TMS adapters and straight hose ends, mounted with all factory parts to the bottom of an S-54 M Rdstr radiator.


    Awesome. Thank you!

    Jon

    Quote Originally Posted by DocWyte View Post
    It also fits onto a CSF radiator.
    Last edited by Baby ///M3; 04-21-2018 at 04:54 PM.

  10. #10
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    Your Dinan V2 from years ago is likely an S Trim. There is a newer and more efficient Si Trim if you want to spend money on a rebuild. It would likely make only a small difference at your power level since the S Trim is not at its limits.

    The original RMS heat exchangers were large thin units that sat in front of the AC condenser with a small fan. A heat exchanger like an aftermarket Ford GT500 unit will be thicker, shorter and wider, maybe dual pass, hold more liquid and sit below the bumper. Put 2 or 3 small puller fans on the back.

    Another idea is a trunk mounted reservoir. Not much space in the engine bay, but maybe you could fit a cylinder inside the bumper. The problem is there is not much coolant in the system now.

    Super Street tested the bavauto shorties on a modded NA car. They added power down low and still added 5 rwhp up top.

    http://www.superstreetonline.com/how...36-m3-project/

    Turner shorties are also worth a look. Probably comparable.

    Should not need a new tune but if you have an old tune you could ask the tuner if there have been any improvements since. Some tuners tune very conservatively unless they have your car on a dyno while they view the logs and your car data over the internet.
    Last edited by pbonsalb; 04-22-2018 at 07:08 AM.

  11. #11
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    pbonsalb:

    Thank you very much for your help! Kudos to you for always helping out people like myself with your wealth of knowledge even though you had gotten rid of your supercharger setup years ago.

    I am going get an oil cooler and look into having an upgraded heat exchanger installed for now. Unfortunately, most of my trunk's space is being occupied by audio equipment so I won't have much room mount the reservoir in there. With respect to meth injection kits, Braymond suggested that I use a meth injection kit for charge cooling only, so that I don't risk damaging the engine if the kit fails. For the purpose of heat soaking reduction, is the idea of having an upgraded heat exchanger the same as using a meth injection kit as a charged cooling device? Or should I use both?

    After I take care of the issues related to heat soaking and running hot oil, I'll get the headers installed.

    If all goes well, I'll also think about reducing the size of my supercharger pulley from 3.45 to 3.33; and upgrading the S52 cams with aftermarket ones. I understand that my current tune (Nick G.) may support the oil cooler, heat exchanger and headers as is. However, when it comes to swapping out my supercharger pulley or cams I am guessing that I must have my software retuned, yes?

    Jon

  12. #12
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    Water meth is great for 2 things — added cooling and octane enhancement. The bigger heat exchanger will allow your aftercooler to work better and longer. I did both. I did not tune for the meth but if you do a very good install with direct port injection (one nozzle in each runner rather than a single nozzle before the TB) and use the failsafe, I think it is OK to tune for it. I assume you are on 91 in CA, which allows less power than 93 so already you are at a disadvantage. The water/meth is a good idea even assuming you do not tune for it.

    The NickG tune is pretty flexible. I think it would handle a 3.33 no problem. That is still mild with a 6.00 crank pulley. To be very conservative given your 91 octane, I would raise the boost only after installing the water/meth system. Might not be perfect with Schrick 264/256 cams though, particularly on cold start and idle. Those are great mild cams for forced induction. No downside. They actually helped low end power on a European Car project car that hwas NA and had the M50 manifold — the article is online somewhere and I have a pdf.

    You could also look into an E85 tune and injectors if you have E85 where you drive. It is great for boosted motors — better cooling, more octane. You could run 13 psi with more timing and make 450+ rwhp.

  13. #13
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    Thank you.

    We do have 100 octane fuel in CA. If I want 95+ octane I may be able to do half 100 and half 91. Do people generally retune their car if they increase or decrease the octane level between 91-100?

    Could you clarify when you said "might not be perfect with Schrick 264/256 cams"? Did you mean that the cams won't be perfect with the water/meth kit and the increased boost? Or that the cams are not suited to my current tune?

    Jon

    Quote Originally Posted by pbonsalb View Post
    The NickG tune is pretty flexible. I think it would handle a 3.33 no problem. That is still mild with a 6.00 crank pulley. To be very conservative given your 91 octane, I would raise the boost only after installing the water/meth system. Might not be perfect with Schrick 264/256 cams though, particularly on cold start and idle. Those are great mild cams for forced induction. No downside. They actually helped low end power on a European Car project car that hwas NA and had the M50 manifold — the article is online somewhere and I have a pdf.

    You could also look into an E85 tune and injectors if you have E85 where you drive. It is great for boosted motors — better cooling, more octane. You could run 13 psi with more timing and make 450+ rwhp.

  14. #14
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    The cams might not be suited to your tune.

    100 is expensive. If you tune for 100 you must run 100. If you don’t tune for it, all it does is add a safety margin.

    E85 is cheap.

    Water meth is relatively cheap since it flows only at higher boost levels. BBB

  15. #15
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    Thanks again for the info.

    If I understand you correctly. You're saying if I don't get my software retuned it wouldn't have mattered if I ran higher octane on the dyno, as the results would've been the same?

    Since I'll be keeping my M3 indefinitely, so long as my budget permits I think the best way is for me to get the quality parts and do things the correct way, even if I have to accomplish each objective one at a time. Based on your advice, I am planning on getting the following first:

    1. Zionsville radiator/oil cooler kit (and water pump, if needed).
    2. Aquamist meth kit HFS3 (seems like RMS carries a really nice tank for its HFS3 kit)

    My car's running fine now so I am now a little hesitant to mess with the belt size by getting a smaller supercharger pulley or replacing the stock cams and headers. I may upgrade the RMS aftercooler's heat exchanger with a beefier unit but I am still on the fence about doing any custom work. We'll see.

    My goal is to keep my S52 as healthy and reliable as a well-maintained stock motor.

    Is there anything else that I might've left out? Will I pick up another 20rwhp with the meth kit alone?

    Jon
    Last edited by Baby ///M3; 04-24-2018 at 03:35 AM.

  16. #16
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    You might gain a few rwhp over your current best, but not 20 rwhp. You might gain 20 rwhp compared to when you were down 30 rwhp due to heat. The water/meth also provides a safety margin that makes it less likely you will blow a head gasket. You probably still will at some point — many of us with centrifugals have blown them. It’s ok to do one thing at a time — that way you know what helps.

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