Apex Arc 8 Fitment Questions!

[adamnur]

Yikes!! All this talk about pounding, hammering, rolling, cracking, etc...do none of you care about your cars?!? Wow, why not just get wheels/tires that actually FIT?? Or do you just consider your cars jalopies and you simply don't care? I guess I'm still of the mindset that these are $40K+ cars (I actually paid more than this) and would never dare take a hammer to my hooptie (just an affectionate term). A perfect example of this is the beautiful red E92 M3 on the 20" BBS LMRs on the Rides & Events page...do you think that car's owner would take a hammer and "pound" out his fenders? Lord have mercy...

The fender roller has been used for decades and if done properly, does absolutely nothing to the appearance of the fender and allows for more room inside. Why do it? Wider wheels, wider tires, more traction come to mind. Some people pull them for even more room. Who really cares what some guy with an E92 M3 does...people with newer cars still modify them and roll fenders.

If rolling a piece of sheet metal scares you then that's fine, but there's no reason to adopt a holier-than-thou attitude about it if you'd rather not do it. There's room to appreciate how all of us enjoy our cars.

[blckstrm]

The fender roller has been used for decades and if done properly, does absolutely nothing to the appearance of the fender and allows for more room inside. Why do it? Wider wheels, wider tires, more traction come to mind. Some people pull them for even more room. Who really cares what some guy with an E92 M3 does...people with newer cars still modify them and roll fenders.

If rolling a piece of sheet metal scares you then that's fine, but there's no reason to adopt a holier-than-thou attitude about it if you'd rather not do it. There's room to appreciate how all of us enjoy our cars.

This Yahoo has only read enough of this thread to misunderstand what we're describing. Late to the party, didn't catch up, then throws a bunch of bullshit out there.

Others pointed out the very car he's referring to likely has rolled fenders as well.

This guy doesn't know his @$$hole from his elbow.

[pbonsalb]

I have read the entire thread and agree with everything adamnur wrote. I think it’s SIIDEWAYS who did not read the thread and jumped in without a proper understanding.

[blckstrm]

I have read the entire thread and agree with everything adamnur wrote. I think it’s SIIDEWAYS who did not read the thread and jumped in without a proper understanding.

Sorry if I wasn't clear - that's exactly what I meant.

[SIIDEWAYS]

The fender roller has been used for decades and if done properly, does absolutely nothing to the appearance of the fender and allows for more room inside. Why do it? Wider wheels, wider tires, more traction come to mind. Some people pull them for even more room. Who really cares what some guy with an E92 M3 does...people with newer cars still modify them and roll fenders.

If rolling a piece of sheet metal scares you then that's fine, but there's no reason to adopt a holier-than-thou attitude about it if you'd rather not do it. There's room to appreciate how all of us enjoy our cars.

Hey, I'm all for wider wheels/tires and more traction, I was simply saying it can be done without having to take a hammer or a fender roller to a car. I run 255s on a 9.5 inch wheel without having to modify anything (which is a softer way to describe the pounding/hammering/stretching, risking the paint, etc.). And not wanting to do so isn't necessarily a "holier-than-thou" attitude. So I was perfectly clear on what was being discussed and I was simply in disagreement.

Regarding some other people's responses, it's funny how I express my view and then the insults come hurling out when I never attacked anyone. My car isn't a show car, and I love to drive it as much or more as others love to drive theirs, so not sure how we ended up on different pages there. Oh, and btw, the statement about the red e92 M3 "likely" having modified fenders? I suppose we could simply ask him so none of us have to assume anything, but my guess is that modification was probably unlikely and unnecessary as those BBS wheels are available with specifically correct width and offset for that application.

Anyway, enough said from me about it, so anyone who wishes to continue lashing out or attacking me, you'll be doing so unilaterally. Happy motoring!

[blckstrm]

Hey, I'm all for wider wheels/tires and more traction, I was simply saying it can be done without having to take a hammer or a fender roller to a car. I run 255s on a 9.5 inch wheel without having to modify anything (which is a softer way to describe the pounding/hammering/stretching, risking the paint, etc.). And not wanting to do so isn't necessarily a "holier-than-thou" attitude. So I was perfectly clear on what was being discussed and I was simply in disagreement.

Regarding some other people's responses, it's funny how I express my view and then the insults come hurling out when I never attacked anyone. My car isn't a show car, and I love to drive it as much or more as others love to drive theirs, so not sure how we ended up on different pages there. Oh, and btw, the statement about the red e92 M3 "likely" having modified fenders? I suppose we could simply ask him so none of us have to assume anything, but my guess is that modification was probably unlikely and unnecessary as those BBS wheels are available with specifically correct width and offset for that application.

Anyway, enough said from me about it, so anyone who wishes to continue lashing out or attacking me, you'll be doing so unilaterally. Happy motoring!

I wouldn't act quite that innocent, but whatever floats your boat.

As for being unwilling to roll - there's a reason every M3 (sadly except ours) has flares from the factory. Going after a wider track is one of the best things you can do for your car's handling.

Track width has a significant positive impact on both grip and handling. This isn't about wider tires. Wider track more evenly distributes weight when cornering, allowing the inside tire to do its job better and relieving load from the outside tire so it also can provide more grip before letting go.

Some perspective on our family of cars.

The E30 M3 is actually 1-2 mm wider front and back than the E36 M3. Totally going the wrong way here. E30 M3 is also (obviously) wider than the E36 328.

E46 was a huge leap forward - even an E46 330 is 49mm front / 39mm rear wider than an E36 M3. E46 M3 is 80-90 mm wider than E36 M3. And an E46 M3 is still about 10mm wider than an E92 335.

E92 M3 isn't bad, either - E92 M3 is 13-30 mm wider than E46 M3.

In summary, except for the E36: BMW has pushed to make M cars wider, and successive generation cars wider as well. Next-gen base cars are NOT wider than the previous M3, though some are decently close.

The E36 is the exception - the base car is narrower than the previous car, and even the M3 is narrower than the previous M3 as well. On top of that, the E36 M3 is also narrower than the succeeding E46 base car.

So with that perspective, I was able to increase my track by 60mm in front and 48mm rear compared to stock. That more than closes the gap with the base E46, and is more than half the distance between stock E36 M3 and E46 M3.

Not that this is a numbers game - no one sits around and compares track widths like they do hp numbers. BMW has done this for a reason.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I did this for a reason, too. This was one of the best things I've done for my car - completely transformed it.

And on top of all the width gains, the 17x9 et30 wheels from Apex are the lightest ones they make - 16.5 pounds. That's a half pound lighter than the flat faced 17x9 et 42 wheels, and a huge 4.5 / 5.5 lbs lighter than the lightest 17" wheels BMW makes (the style 68 from the E46 sport package, which I had before the Apex wheels). It was like a second diff upgrade but without the higher revs on the highway.

All that benefit for a little body work on the inside of the fender that will never show and has no impact on the vehicle at all? Zero impact. As if a fender roll was brain surgery or rocket science.

And in front it bolts right up - no spacer required. You want to talk about modifications? I'd rather roll my fenders than roll on spacers. So to each his own.

I'll take that every day of the week, and twice on Sunday.

[TostitoBandito]

I run 255s on a 9.5 inch wheel without having to modify anything (which is a softer way to describe the pounding/hammering/stretching, risking the paint, etc.).

What offset and camber, and what tires? Also, what's your ride height?

I know in my case and everyone else's case I've seen (Apex, thread full of people running Apex 17x9's, etc...) anything wider than a 245 on a 17x9 ET42 in the rear will require some amount of fender work. That is, unless you run crazy stancebro camber or jack your ride height up. Hell, my 245's on 17x9's at -2 degrees camber don't have much room at my ride height which is about 1 inch below stock. 255's in the same tire wouldn't have a chance, let alone on a 9.5 inch wheel. Granted, tires vary and lower performance 255's might not be much wider than my 245's, so tire choice also matters.

[tvcasualty]

i call BS no way a 255 with 9.5s are fitting on an e36 without a roll at minimum

my 245s on 9"s rubbed with a roll till i gave it some decent camber

If I did it all over again I would have gone with 10+ inch wide wheels and flares. function>form for me

[adamnur]

Hey, I'm all for wider wheels/tires and more traction, I was simply saying it can be done without having to take a hammer or a fender roller to a car. I run 255s on a 9.5 inch wheel without having to modify anything (which is a softer way to describe the pounding/hammering/stretching, risking the paint, etc.). And not wanting to do so isn't necessarily a "holier-than-thou" attitude. So I was perfectly clear on what was being discussed and I was simply in disagreement.

Regarding some other people's responses, it's funny how I express my view and then the insults come hurling out when I never attacked anyone. My car isn't a show car, and I love to drive it as much or more as others love to drive theirs, so not sure how we ended up on different pages there. Oh, and btw, the statement about the red e92 M3 "likely" having modified fenders? I suppose we could simply ask him so none of us have to assume anything, but my guess is that modification was probably unlikely and unnecessary as those BBS wheels are available with specifically correct width and offset for that application.

Anyway, enough said from me about it, so anyone who wishes to continue lashing out or attacking me, you'll be doing so unilaterally. Happy motoring!

Nobody knows the full specs of your wheels and it could be possible to run 255s on a 9.5, but if you want to go lower, you can't. If you want a wider stance, you can't either. It's also possible you're running a tire that runs narrow closer to a 245. My street wheel 245 Michelins fit more like a 255.

But come on, you can't realistically state that you posted an objective disagreement with factual reasoning. It was quite condescending and anyone can detect that tone, so you had to expect some backlash.

In any case, I can appreciate the versatility in styling the E36, and some of that styling does involve modifying the stock body. If we all modified our cars the same and pushed no boundaries, there would be nothing left to talk about. So happy motoring indeed

[cmoody]

Do 17x9 ET42s with 255/40 extreme summer tires need anything more than a lip roll when used for aggressive autox and track duty? Currently on Dinan springs that dropped the rear less than 0.25in from stock and have about 2deg camber out back. I'd love to run the ET30s, but it seems like even with an aggressive roll and moderate pull they will still rub.

[TostitoBandito]

Do 17x9 ET42s with 255/40 extreme summer tires need anything more than a lip roll when used for aggressive autox and track duty? Currently on Dinan springs that dropped the rear less than 0.25in from stock and have about 2deg camber out back. I'd love to run the ET30s, but it seems like even with an aggressive roll and moderate pull they will still rub.

I was told by Apex and have read numerous similar accounts that this fitment will work with a mild roll in back and about 2 degrees of camber. In front you'll probably need 12mm spacers to clear the struts but no roll, and at least 2.5 degrees of camber (maybe less depending on ride height). I thought about doing this but decided I didn't want to bother with the roll and just got 245's.

Other factors in my decision:
245's will also have a stiffer sidewall than 255's on the same wheels since the 255's will bulge out a little more on the rim
255/40's are a taller tire than the 245/40's, which isn't exactly what I wanted

[cmoody]

I was told by Apex and have read numerous similar accounts that this fitment will work with a mild roll in back and about 2 degrees of camber. In front you'll probably need 12mm spacers to clear the struts but no roll, and at least 2.5 degrees of camber (maybe less depending on ride height). I thought about doing this but decided I didn't want to bother with the roll and just got 245's.

Other factors in my decision:
245's will also have a stiffer sidewall than 255's on the same wheels since the 255's will bulge out a little more on the rim
255/40's are a taller tire than the 245/40's, which isn't exactly what I wanted

Thanks for the info. It's interesting that 245s on 9" don't need any work, but I think it's reasonable for stock/near stock ride height. I'll have to see if the 245/40 vs. 255/40 feel is enough to outweigh my desire for the "fat tire" look and a slightly larger contact patch. That's more of a "need to save up for a while" problem, though...

[tvcasualty]

245's on 9"s in the front will still need work. i rolled the chit outta mine and they still made contact until i added neg camber. THat was with a ET34 and no spacer. im now at -3.2 degrees and a 5mm spacer and there is tons of room. I could fit 255s easy now front and rear.

[TostitoBandito]

They shouldn't. I run 17x9 ET42 in the front with a 12mm spacer to clear the strut (effectively ET30) and a relatively low ride height (around an inch below stock, maybe more) with no fender clearance issues at -2.5 degrees camber. That's with 245/40-17 Hankook RS4's which are basically track tires, and tires in this category tend to run wide. Given that I know people who've run 255's in front under unmolested fenders, I don't see how 245's should require any work unless your car is stanced or something. There's still ample clearance to play with there with my 245's on. 255's are also taller which means your ride height is probably going to need to be slightly higher than with 245's, providing a bit more clearance.

[slowthirtysix]

got them on guys!

[blckstrm]

got them on guys!

Looks fantastic! What did you wind up choosing for tires? I can see they're Michelins, but did you get PS4S or PSSs?

I just barely found out the PS4S became available sometime in the last month or so. I bought new tires two months ago (around when we started this conversation) and the PS4S wasn't available in 17 yet. Now it is - hopefully you scored some (or got a great deal on closeout PSSs).

[slowthirtysix]

thank you! and yes! pilot super sports all around.

[blckstrm]

thank you! and yes! pilot super sports all around.

I should also mention - on page 2 Tostito talked about removing the sealant before rolling. I've been rubbing more lately (maybe has something to do with my kids getting bigger? I don't know why...), so I decided to dig out some of the sealant at the top to get a tighter roll in the upper portion. I didn't want a tight radius down below, but up top - I wanted it bent up straight, not poking out toward the tire. So I though the top layer of sealant was holding me up. Nope...

If you've ever read about flaring the rear, you know there are a couple layers of metal. The fender lip actually has 2 layers of metal with sealant over them, and depending on whether the layers stay together or separate a little they can respond differently to a roll. Mine actually separated on the side where I have more clearance. The inner layer separated and creased higher than the actual fender lip, allowing it to roll tight. The other side stayed together, which made for a much fatter radius and roll - and was what caused me to rub on that side.

I scraped out some of the sealant, and bent the lip back down a little. I then bent the inner piece back and forth until it broke off. I filled it with some sealant, and then bent the lip back up where it was - but tighter. Everything seems to fit great now.

I never realized there were two layers even at the lip. Not sure how I'd have gone about fixing that early on, but was good to learn why the two sides weren't coming out the same.