01 E38 no Start after timing guide job

[Mayorchuck]

I just can't think of anything else without diagnostic software Chris. Timing, compression or battery is all I got.

Probably wouldn't hurt to ask the guys in the E38 forum who have more experience with this. I referenced that link because those guys are really good.

[Imissmyvet]

Is it possible to time one side of the motor without tearing the other side apart?

[bmwdirtracer]

Let's consider that you believe the engine is out of time, despite your best efforts. Would you now want to try to time HALF the engine, to save removing one valvecover and one upper timing cover?

I highly recommend against that.

That's just me, I'm naturally paranoid.

[Imissmyvet]

Sorry I should have mentioned this. After all of the fiasco from the first time I timed the motor and had a no start, I decided to tear it all apart and re-time it. Did that and got it all back together and she started right up. I noticed that the motor wasnt running exactly smooth, and when I looked inside I had a service engine soon light on. I hooked up a scanner and it said "vanos inlet camshaft control bank 2". When I ran live data it showed bank 2 '4.5' and bank 1 was 0.0.

[Imissmyvet]

Chris and Chuck,

The reason I was asking about timing half of the motor is due to the fact that according to my data, bank 2 is out of time. Can I time it independent of the other bank. Meaning is it possible. Or should I rip it all apart and time it all again? I am not adverse to that if it is the way it should be. I just have nightmares of my motor not starting again!! LOL

[bmwdirtracer]

I'm sorry, Mark, I just don't know. I've never tried to do that, I just follow the directions. As I recall, there was a guy at the E39 forum who had a cheat for this, but it was a long time ago that I read it, and I forgot who it was, and what the cheat was.

You might just want to ask pbonsalb ... he's one of the most erudite guys at the E39 forum, and certainly the most helpful. As MayorChuck says, you should also try the E38 forum....most everyone there is very helpful and very knowledgeable.

[ptarditi]

Yes you can.

[bmwdirtracer]

Here it is Mark. I knew I remembered a thread on this. The guy with the trick is JivLev; Gootsy benefited from it, I didn't believe it, because I tend to follow the book, until it's proven to me....even then, I have short term memory loss.....

Read this thread:
https://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/s...k-2-quot/page3

[Imissmyvet]

Hey Chris,

So after reading the entire thread, I am going to have to side with you. Just turning the wheel does nothing more than trick the computer into thinking its in time, when in fact it obviously isn't. Again assuming that the procedure that Gootsy followed was done exactly right. I have my doubts at the end of the day, due to the fact that this shortcut had to be done in this first place. I am still very much a rookie with this procedure which is why I wanted to try and just time the side that was throwing the code. I fear that the same thing might happen again and have a no start. None the less, I am going to dive back in and time it once again. Completely. All that being said, I want to stress that I am not knocking what the guys in that thread did, or advised to do. I, for one, would always be thinking that the car isn't right following their procedure. To each, his own!

Now then. I do have a few questions:

1. According the my scanner, (Snap-On Solis Ultra) I get code 34 which is "vanos inlet camshaft control bank 2". When I do what I think to be "live" readings, it said that bank 1 was at 0.0 degrees. Bank 2 registered 4.5 degrees. If what I was reading was correct, you were telling Gootsy that being off less than 10 degrees was not a big deal. I feel a genuine loss of power if I push the car. If I drive normally it isn't as noticeable. So I am thinking that 4.5 degrees is more of a big deal.

2. How do I know whether I have jumped a tooth when I did my guides? How is that fixed? I want to do this right. And I know you guys will tell me the correct/book way. That's the way it will get done.

3. Finally, the scanner. Am I just using the wrong tool? I still need to order the scan tool that you guys were talking about. The foxwell, I believe. My only concern is I dont want to be limited to a few vehicles. I want and need to be able scan future BMW's as well as other vehicles for family and such. But my priority is the depth of use at the end of the day. I am looking at the 512. Should I be looking at another model?

Thanks for all of the patience and help along this journey of mine. It is greatly appreciated.

Mark

[bmwdirtracer]

I told someone that timing being off 10 degrees wasn't a big deal? That really doesn't sound like something I'd say. Wonder how many beers I'd had that night? I was pretty sure I was the one who said the timing had to be done correctly.

Anyway, I'm not really sure how the whole "scratch and move" the sensor wheel works. I know that the timing sets I've used lock the cams, the crank, AND the sensor wheels.

Understand that I have never used the Foxwell tool - I have access to ISTA, Autologic, and other pro computers. I've heard good things about the Foxwell scan tool, though, and the price seems right. Buy the 20-pin adapter cord to attach to your underhood diag port.

Make sure there's no slack between the crank and the bank 2 cam when you set the timing. Any slack needs to be be on the bank 1 (tensioner) side.

[shadowpuck]

The nt510 will take up to 5 makes I think. You can add others besides BMW.

[Imissmyvet]

Chris,

My mistake. Your no big deal comment was about a one tooth jump on the crank. Sorry about that.

How can I tell if I have "jumped a tooth"? Also. How do I make sure the slack is on bank 1? I mean. Is there a special procedure if it is not? I was under the impression that I wouldnt have to worry about that if I kept tension on the tensioner with a zip tie. I just want to make sure that I have all of this down before I crack the covers again. Would 4.5 degrees constitute a jumped tooth or is it more likely that I didnt and I just have the timing set wrong? Is there a test I can do to confirm?

[Imissmyvet]

Did I say something wrong?

[bmwdirtracer]

Dammit, I answered this, but somehow my post is gone.

It's been a few years since I had to correct that mis-timed engine, and I have only mis-timed the one, so memory is rusty.

However, as I recall, IF YOU FIND SLACK ON BANK 2 between cam and crank, you need to slacken the bank 2 vanos/cam bolt, remove cam locks and crank lock, loosen the main tensioner, push all the slack to the crankshaft sprocket, and then roll the crank counterclockwise one tooth, then forward until you can lock it again, which should also take up all the slack. Then lock the cams again, and redo vanos setting.

Sorry, it's early morning, and I haven't had my coffee, and I'm late for work, hope that makes sense.

[JimLev]

So after reading the entire thread, I am going to have to side with you. Just turning the wheel does nothing more than trick the computer into thinking its in time, when in fact it obviously isn't. Again assuming that the procedure that Gootsy followed was done exactly right.

Mark

If you have the crank pinned and the cams locked the static timing between them would be correct. All the trigger wheels do is tell the DME if the vanos has moved the intake cams to the adv/retard position the DME wants them at.
So you either have some slack in the chain on the bank 2 side, maybe you rebuilt the vanos wrong, or you didn't set the trigger wheels correctly.
As I said in the other post there are tolerances in tool sets as well as peeps not doing things 100% correct that amount to enough error to give you the code. (Sure you didn't bend one of the tabs on the trigger wheel?)
Turning the trigger wheel isn't tricking the DME, it's setting it in within a deg or so of where it's suppose to be set to satisfy the test the DME runs on it when you first start the engine.

[bmwdirtracer]

Mark, I'd like you to note that JimLev is a Moderator with 12,000 posts of helping people on these forums. He is exceptionally familiar with the M62. Both of us have done a lot of them, and I'm sure he knows at least as many tricks for the E38/39s as I ever will.

I'm not convinced that the trigger wheel "scratch and move" is guaranteeing correct correlation between cams and crank....but...when it comes to engine timing, I am OH SO ANALLY RETENTIVE.

That doesn't mean I'm right, but I believe I'm right, until someone changes my mind.

All this said...JimLev absolutely knows his stuff.
This point is moot now, anyway, isn't it? You're pulling the lower cover again anyway, right?.

[Imissmyvet]

Hey all,

Well...I redid everything including sealing the lower timing cover with a cut section of a upper oil pan gasket. Started it today and thankfully it started. But is running rough as H-e-double hockey sticks. I ran my foxwell for the first time and here are the codes I am getting.

DME activation map cooling
DME: misfiring at several cylinders
DME: misfire detection cyl 8

How do I test further with the foxwell? Or is this enough information to diagnose? Im sure not, but one can hope! Im confused on what could have caused this...

[Imissmyvet]

Oh yeah,

I get it about moving the wheel. I am just a little anal retentive and prefer to take it back apart and do it again. I had to do the gasket anyway, so no harm, no foul. JimLev did mention something about "rebuilding the Vanos?" Im not sure I follow what you mean by that..Could you tell me "rookie english" please? LOL

Thanks
Mark

[bmwdirtracer]

You've now got entirely different issues, so start afresh.

Activation map cooling: is your thermostat unplugged?

Misfire cylinder 8, and multiple:
Go check whether the cylinder 8 coil is properly connected, maybe swap it to another cylinder, and clear the codes...

Then drive it around the block, and read the codes again.

[Mayorchuck]

Even if the sensor on the t-stat is plugged in, unplug it and see if it's wet or burnt. That's a common code when that sensor leaks and sends coolant up the wire loom, sometimes all the way to the DME connections.

[bmwdirtracer]

This should explain the "vanos rebuild". Certainly, you can do it yourself. https://drvanos.com/index.php/m62-vanos

Beisans Systems are also excellent, although I've found the tech advice from Chris Gant at DrVanos to be so superb (and free, and forthcoming), I'll never use anyone else. Great company!

[JimLev]

Just adding another data point.
Raj at Beisan Systems supplies everyone with the parts to rebuild the vanos.
He is also available for tech support questions.
If you have a big bench mounted vise and a 1/2" torque wrench and 27mm socket you can replace the o-rings in both vanos for about $100. If you don't feel comfortable doing them then Dr.Vanos is the way to go.
I've done many M62tu vanos as well as them on e46's (which are much easier, no press tool required).

http://www.beisansystems.com/procedu..._procedure.htm

[ptarditi]

If you're going to need the vanos press tool. let me know, I bought it to do mine and would be willing to lend it out.

[Imissmyvet]

Hey Guys,

So my t-stat connector wasnt completely plugged in. Dont ask how...I pulled it out and plugged it back in and that code went away. I also took a known "good" coilpack and substituted it for the one on cylinder 8 and reset the codes. T-stat code is now gone and I now have a code of:

DME signal. Hot-film air mass flow sensor
DME Misfiring at several cylinders
DME Misfire detection Cylinder 8

So, one new code, mass airflow sensor and no change after switching coil pack, and resetting codes.

I replaced one Vanos as i dropped the original one and didnt think it was still good at the time of timing the motor. At this point are we thinking that it is a Vanos issue or was that a continuation of the "no start" issue I was having earlier?

[Imissmyvet]

Let me clarify. I replaced one Vanos solenoid. Not the Vanos itself. My Car only has 91k on it.