E39 Reman Starter Spins but seems like it won't properly engage flywheel to start car

[rdp2n]

2002 BMW E39 525i Wagon -- 239K
Bought this car 2 months ago.
A week or so after I bought it, went to start car and got a whirring, unpleasant buzzing sound from the starter -- as though it was spinning but not properly engaging the flywheel. Looked at battery, looked old, so I replaced it. Car started again after that.
-- For a while --
2 weeks later, I went to start car and got same whirring sound from the starter. Battery was fine. So I diagnosed a bad starter and went about replacing that.

Ordered a re-manufactured starter. On and off for the past several weeks I have been plodding through removing and replacing the intake manifold. Along the way, replacing any hoses, gaskets, cleaning where appropriate, taking my time and working carefully. Installed reman starter, reinstalled intake manifold and all that that entails.

Same problem -- new/reman starter spins but whirrs, and buzzes, but it not turning the engine over.

Any advice on how I should proceed / troubleshoot?

The following may be a series of red herrings but here goes anyway.
I suspect that the starter may not be getting the requisite voltage (how best to check this on an E39 you can't get underneath?).
I have suspected that there may be electrical issues or some parasitic draw on the battery. The new battery seemed to be significantly discharged by sitting for a few days. The car was inspected in July, but when I bought the car in January several of the headlight bulbs needed replacing. Weird. Also weird to my mind was the appearance on one occasion of significant condensation on the surface of the battery when I went to check it a few weeks ago.

Any suggestions welcome. Thanks, Rob

[StephenVA]

Voltage vs AMPs
How to test a starting system 101 (there is nothing new in this as this process has been around since 1950 when Sun Electric Corp started running Electrical training classes.
In this case all you need is a volt/OHM meter even a $12 will work.

Crib sheet - check battery voltage over 12.5V? Y/N Same at Starter? Y?N

Basics: In order for a starting system to function properly it needs two things 12.5 volts and Min 200-250 amps available from the battery. It will NOT start if the battery is below 10.5V on cranking as the computers can not "see" TDC as the sensors will not send/receive a proper signal. No signal NO Crank or SPARK. Brake light switch (S/W) working?

Step 1. Clean and reattach the following: Battery end terminals (yes the battery in the trunk under the 55# of stuff you dragging around, under the AMP, Battery grounds in trunk near the battery. Remove the spare tire. Vacuum all the dirt while you are in there. (little spray shine would not hurt either). Full of water? Clean and reinstall the jumper terminal ends in the intake manifold. Clean and tighten the cables going to the starter and alternator. Covered in Oil? Clean as necessary
Step 2. Read the voltage at the battery terminals, battery posts, and jumper points. Read the same? Over 12.5V or under?
Step 3. Perform a "Volt Drop Test" at the terminals and at the jumper point under the hood (Battery + to Jump Point +) under .05V? (How to do a Volt Drop Test: http://www.aa1car.com/library/voltage_drop_testing.htm

Step 4. with key on, what is the voltage at the starter? Same as battery voltage?
Step 3. Read voltage at the jumper points under the hood. Same?

At this point you need to confirm Amp capability of the battery but you don't have a carbon pile load tester, so you are going to do a SWAG. with the volt meter on the battery posts, turn on ALL the accessories including the seat heaters, rear defroster, HVAC fan, etc. Read voltage drops below 11V? YES-charge battery and retest. Same results? Throw away battery. NO? Move forward to starter testing.

Step 4 Starter testing
A. Ign S/W failure? TIP: all kinds of other stuff not working? Do passenger visor light test. Turns on? No replace Ignition switch (Ign S/W) DIY http://www.bimmerboard.com/forums/posts/244045
B. BMW Starter testing.... The quickest way is to jump the positive terminals at the starter to see if the solenoid engages the drive gear and spins the engine. Note: Did you confirm 12+Volts at the starter? Y/N If no see step C.
C. Remove starter from car an return to source for bench testing. 25-35% of reman starters are either bad in the box or poorly re-manufactured. That is why you should insist that it is bench tested before you walk out the door.

ANY of this helpful?

[rdp2n]

Thanks very much for taking the time to provide so much helpful detail, StephenVA -- Much food for thought.
When it warms up tomorrow I'll carry out some of these basics. I already tested the battery (6 weeks old) voltage -- 12.42 at the posts and 12.34 between the jumper points in the engine compartment. I gather you would consider this on the low side (but not enough to prevent the starter system from working?).
Passenger visor light turns on.
I must say that what did grab my attention was your estimate of 25-35% re-manufactured starters being essentially junk ...

[StephenVA]

Yes, the reman world is really a great example of an industry driven by lowest cost product dominates distribution to cost focused consumers. The results are short cuts everywhere in the rebuild world. There maybe a few rebuilding companies in your area who can accurately test your original unit and replace the brushes and clean the center armature while doing a quick windings test. This way you would get a better end product. The solenoid is the primary failure point. This means the gear never engages or will not release after ignition key is released. Oil all over the units kill more than parts failures.

you can bench test the starter yourself with some simple test procedures.
needed: a 12 volt source- car battery, jumper cables, some thick copper insulated wire approx 12"
google testing BMW starters and you will find more than a few vids showing the process of ground cable end clamped to ground the starter case, positive jumper to short wire and then crossing the electrical small primary wire contact connectors. These vids give you the correct understanding that you can even do it when the starter is still bolted in the car. Which is how 90% of the shops determine starter failures. Not the best way but it gets to the part action failure but not the root issue quickly. Most jam in a starter then find out if there are other issues. The other issues are always repaired at your expense,as no one removes the replacement unit even if it was not the "real" cause. Welcome to parts replacement as a troubling solution shooting silver bullet process.

Way too many of our E39s have old age issues, that do not lend themselves to quick cause and effect parts replacements.

Do your wallet a favor, take your time, do a little testing FIRST before shoveling parts at it, the knowledge you will learn will last well beyond your ownership of this car. Hell who knows, you might even become the go to person for car solutions. By the way there is a large BMW CLUB IN YOUR AREA. Many of the members might be a person you can bounce ideas off of to determine future challenges. The Indy in your area is a great source of knowledgeable people who might want to assist your DIY efforts as they could get your car on too large to handle problems.
good luck and today seems warmer than yesterday. If your in the No Va area anytime stop by.

[JimLev]

Not sure if this was mentioned (didn't read everything), remove the ground strap from the engine to the body and clean both ends plus the 2 attachment points.

[rdp2n]

Scouring this forum does reveal that ground straps could be an issue. I can see one looking down the passenger side at front of engine. Hefty thing -- does not look like a point of failure. Is there another (flimsier, strap-like) one on the driver's side -- that could be involved here?
I think I'll start today with a proper recharge of the battery followed by a review of grounds to check and clean. I must say that getting good info on where grounds are, wiring diagrams of what components might be involved in the starter system are not easy to come by for this particular model (E39 2002 525i Wagon).

Could a faulty ignition switch cause a symptom such as I am experiencing here -- an apparent reduction of current / loss of power at the starting event? Would it not more likely be an all-or-nothing failure if that were the issue? I do have some other weird electrical issues going on -- though not the classic vanity light variety -- I have no cruise control light, I have double-speed-blinking indicators, and when the key goes to position 1 (or is it 2?) the steering wheel adjustment system twitches slightly. This car is one bundle of mysteries -- far too complex -- fortunately I like whodunnits. If the weather were warmer I'd set up an armchair next to the car for frequent philosophical thinking, pipe-smoking, beer-drinking pauses.

I had the old starter checked yesterday at Advance Auto. Not entirely convincing, but the test conclusion was "Good". So some, limited, evidence that the issue is not the starter.

The BMW Club is a great tip -- Thanks. They want $48 per year (to keep out the riffraff?) -- and perusing their website I get the feeling I might just the kind of riffraff they want to keep out. Still, I have 2 BMWs now -- including a very nice E36 convertible badly in need of a new top (planned to do that later this year). So I'll consider shining my shoes, working on my manners and cosying up to them.

[edjack]

BMW CCA welcomes all Bimmer owners (these are NOT Beemers or Beamers!). Just don't mention the Volvo.

The iggy switch only provides a signal to the starter circuit. Since the starter motor runs says the switch is okay.

There is a ground strap from the block to the frame, bypassing the engine mount.

The simple test for a starter is to firmly place it in your bench vise so it won't jump around. Then apply the battery to the large terminal on the solenoid, and to the case of the starter. Make sure the Bendix drive engages as soon as the starter spins.

- - - Updated - - -

BMW CCA welcomes all Bimmer owners (these are NOT Beemers or Beamers!). Just don't mention the Volvo.<br><br>The iggy switch only provides a signal to the starter circuit. Since the starter motor runs says the switch is okay.<br><br>There is a ground strap from the block to the frame, bypassing the engine mount.<br><br>The simple test for a starter is to firmly place it in your bench vise so it won't jump around. Then apply the battery to the large terminal on the solenoid, and to the case of the starter. Make sure the Bendix drive engages as soon as the starter spins.

[StephenVA]

Don't forget the grounds in the trunk nearest the battery location!

Causes in order of probability:
- Battery voltage - below necessary levels for starting system (Battery voltage and AMPs are required!- Dah...) Many batteries when failing will show great voltage until a load is applied and then they drop like a stone to dead.
- Failed part- reman Starter
- Wiring ground issues

Notes:
A few posters have discovered the Ign S/W failures will cause the starter to "click" but not send the necessary
Many posters have had unresolved water leaks to the point of impacting the the body wire harness connectors under the passenger seat. REAL BIG ISSUE. These posters had multiple electrical issues in multiple unrelated circuits- tail lamps, accessories, charging voltage 15 volts ++, Interior lighting shorts, etc.

[rdp2n]

When you say:

"Don't forget the grounds in the trunk nearest the battery location!"
I'm not exactly sure what you mean. Yesterday I did clean out the trunk and cleaned the battery terminals themselves, again, and removed the negative battery strap going to the frame of the car and gave that a good clean. What else? I didn't touch the positive connections that were not connected directly to the battery. What else? I didn't see much else back there.
Charged battery -- 12.45 volts at posts, 12.43 volts at jump points under hood.

Next I need to get an assistant to help me do the voltage drop testing. And I'd like to get under the car to look at the strap going from block to frame mentioned by edjack ...

[djb2]

Bypass all of this. Hook a jumpstart box up to the terminal on the intake manifold, grounding on the lift hook. This will avoid any problems with ground straps or battery clamps.

If the starter spins but still doesn't engage, suspect the reman starter (there was a reason it was returned!) and flywheel. Turn the crank a few degrees with the front bolt (22mm or 7/8") to move past any chewed-up teeth.

[rdp2n]

Thanks djb2 -- I'll try this next -- I have a Stanley fatmax that will do nicely. I get the terminal on the intake manifold -- but by "lift hook" -- I'm assuming you mean the lump on the central underneath frame that I put in direct contact with the jack saddle?

I got the car onto my wooden ramps this afternoon. The grounding cable on the front passenger side is obvious. I did not manage to find any other grounding strap though -- I was expecting to see one of these somewhere:

http://www.bimmerworld.com/BMW-Parts...SABEgKUVfD_BwE

Where exactly should this be? If it is indeed missing perhaps that would explain a lot. I'm hoping the culprit is something relatively simple (and cheap to fix). However, I have a nasty feeling it could be the flywheel -- though the section I saw when replacing the starter motor looked OK to me. Jury still out. Very grateful for all this help --

[djb2]

On the front of the engine, bolted to the VANOS and thermostat, is a lifting eye. That's the easiest to reach solid ground on the engine.

That brown insulted cable from the right side engine mounting arm to the frame is the primary ground for the engine block, and where the bulk of the current flows when starting. Most sensors and actuators have isolated grounds through the engine wiring harness. Only the oil pressure switch relies on the block ground. The only other ground points are incidental e.g. through the exhaust, and the transmission harness.

[rdp2n]

Well, got & installed another in-store tested starter (Carquest, Advance Auto), and now the car cranks normally (but won't start -- subject of a new thread).
Eventually, I obtained a remote starter switch ($15 from Advance Auto) and found this link very helpful to test starter condition:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9PWG6Il_ZJI
Did not realize that testing the starter was so straightforward. And if I had to do this again, I'd test the starter in place before replacing the intake manifold. Suffice it to say I could have been more systematic on this job. Grateful for help on this thread to keep me on track.