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I’m getting ready to install the Riot Racing cams in my 60k mile s52. I plan on resealing my vanos and cleaning/inspecting my lifters. I will leave valve springs alone. I will have all the appropriate tools and have the FSM, “101 performance projects”, and a few YouTube videos. I have never done cams but have done enough various automotive work that I feel comfortable. I will obviously rotate the engine several times before start-up to confirm no issues. This is my question:
-I will be using the “pelican method” (sweet spot) to remove/install cams. In “101 performance projects” the another states that if you are performing the install with the head mounted on the car, to go 45 degrees past TDC to prevent Piston to valve interference when rotating the cam. My question is how will I insure timing once reinstalled? Mark cam gears/chain/crank with a paint pen, then rotate to TDC and use cam blocks to confirm? Since I am rotating the cams independently of crank at a certain point the cam blocks will be of no help. Thanks in advance.
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https://youtu.be/JPlKrOC718wOriginally Posted by Rugbyfan
Follow his videos, there are several.
He’s very detailed, no way for you to get lost.
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does not have 1000hp
The crank shouldn't be moving at all once it's set to TDC. You can pin the flywheel, or you can just let it sit there. It isn't going to move unless you move it.
The cams will move around, but the cam blocks will ensure that they are in time. The blocks will not sit flat on the head unless the timing is perfect.
Once you reinstall the cams and time them using the blocks, you simply reinstall the chain. As long as you haven't moved the crank for some reason, you're all set.
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I used the sweet spot method as well, however I was installing less aggressive cams so the lobes were smaller. Excuse me if I am stating anything too obvious. By turning the crank to the 45 degree past TDC you are at a point where none of the pistons are high enough to hit a valve which is critical for interference engines (most modern engines are). You can confirm the pistons are low enough by gentlly sticking a clean long screwdriver down each spark plug hole, check the height at TDC and after you rotate the engine a little. Once the pistons are at a safe height you can remove the timing chains and turn the cams to any position without damage, as described on the pelican site and videos there is a sweet spot for each cam where only one pair of valves is open. After you have carefully installed your new cams, bring them to the TDC position, install you cam blocks then rotate the crank back 45 degrees and install your flywheel pin. DO NOT return to TDC by turning the crank anothet 315 degrees in the same direction because your pistons will hit open valves. I hope this makes sense. I was super cautious and kept checking the positions of the pistons and valves as I repositioned the crankshaft. I do like this method because it allows you to cycle the valve train with a wrench and ensure nothing is binding or feels off.
Last edited by gdavid; 03-23-2018 at 12:34 PM.
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How do you get the cam cap nuts started with the engine at TDC without the special BMW cam install tool that presses the cam down? Do you have some jig made up or to you just start the nuts you can get on and slowly tighten them until you cam get the rest started?
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https://youtu.be/wRnqy-7dT28
Same guy from the other video above. Should be covered in here in detail. In short, you put the first cap on (front of engine), rotating the cam slightly so that you can get the nuts started. Once the nuts are started you rotate the cam back so that lobe is facing straight down again, and slowly tighten that cap. Once that cap is snug you can secure and torque all the caps while the cam remains in that position.
Last edited by TostitoBandito; 03-23-2018 at 01:53 PM.
1999 M3/2/5 - Titanium Silver - Track/Weekend Toy
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I've had a question tangential to this for a long time.
I'm in a slightly different place - I have 226k miles on the car, so my answer may be different than for someone with substantially fewer miles.
When you do cams, do you replace the bearings or just re-use your original bearings? Cam bearings obviously don't see the stress rod and main bearings see, but are the tolerances on aftermarket / regrind cams good enough that you don't need to plastigauge / figure out the right size bearings like you would do on a bottom end?
-Josh: 1998 S54 E36 M3/4/6 with most of the easy stuff and most of the hard stuff. At least twice. 271k miles. 1994 E32 740il with nothing but some MPars. 93k miles.
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These cams ride directly on the cam ledges, there are no replaceable bearings. New ledges are around $500 (each) The best practice is keeping them mated with their original ledge so if you are replacing them with used look for a set including the ledges and try to find the best looking lobes and journals possible. The ledges are soft aluminum so they will give before the cams, plastigaug really isn't a thing to do. They get damaged by oil starvation or containation. I assume guys that buy high dollar cams just put them in their current ledges unless it is an extremely high dollar build warranting $1k in new ledges. I don't think many folks are doing $15k s52 builds anymore.
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LOL - $15k s52 builds. Right, not many these days. And even then - I don't think anyone's having trouble with them.
I guess the fact that there ARE no cam bearings explains why I've never seen mention of what to do with them when replacing the cams.
Good to know!
-Josh: 1998 S54 E36 M3/4/6 with most of the easy stuff and most of the hard stuff. At least twice. 271k miles. 1994 E32 740il with nothing but some MPars. 93k miles.
does not have 1000hp
Like TostitoBandito said, roll the lobe off of the bucket, caps on, then roll the lobe back on to compress the spring, then tighten more. There is a particular order in which you need to tighten the rest of them down.
The video in the link that the guys posted above will walk you through it.
I did make a jig for holding the intake cam while I broke the vanos splined gear loose. That sucker does not want to come off, and you can't exactly put the cam in a vise to hold it.
- - - Updated - - -
Correct. No bearings, just the caps and ledges.
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In that video, the guy does rotate the engine off of TDC to ensure valve clearance while rotating the cams, that was my point. I would be nervous about rotating the cam even a little bit with pistons 1 and 6 at the top of their travel. The BMW install tool presses it straight in in the proper orientation to prevent this but who has one.
That helix bolt is tight as hell, I removed mine with a vice to hold the cam.
http://youtu.be/wRnqy-7dT28
does not have 1000hp
Ohhh yea. Forgot all about that. So yeah, mark the cam and chain and roll the crank like he did.
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Cool, I wasn't trying to be argumentative but would hate to have someone bend a valve stem or snap a cam, I am nervous enough with my m52 cams which are 1/5th the cost to replace as S motor cams. I would be really nervous installing $1500 racing cams. I'll head back to the normal e36 page where I belong now.
Member
Yeah, this is definitely something that while it is certainly able to be DIY'd, if you aren't comfortable with the procedures or consequences you're probably better off paying a professional to do it. There's nothing terribly complicated about it, but any mistakes can potentially cause a lot of damage and a lot more money and/or labor to fix them, up to and including destroying the entire engine if you really screw something up and then drive the car.
1999 M3/2/5 - Titanium Silver - Track/Weekend Toy
does not have 1000hp
I say go for it. Get your hands dirty. If you follow the instructions you’ll be fine. If you are semi-competent in working on cars, you can handle it.
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I had another thread going on r3v (the motor is in an e30). I have a pretty good grasp on it now and will be tackling it and the Vanos when riot ships my cams (3 week delay). I have all of the necessary tools/manuals/videos and have done a good amount of auto work (just not bmw cams). I’m gonna tackle it and just go slow. I’ll do a few revolutions when all is buttoned up to confirm no piston to valve issues. I was just stumped with the usual “don’t rotate an engine backwards” but now I see that this is minor and necessary. Thanks guys.
Oh Dear.
BMW E36 M3 Expert
Seems like you got a handle on it, that guy's videos were instrumental. I did the same job(s) with all the same tools/resources you've mentioned with no prior engine experience. You'll love the riot cams.
Member
Do you have the Riot Cams? Can you comment on before / after?
I've been aching to do it for a long time, but I've kinda been waiting for something to fail and bump me into doing it. But my car has been running so well I haven't had a reason to crack it open for quite a while now. Doesn't mean I don't think about it all the time...
-Josh: 1998 S54 E36 M3/4/6 with most of the easy stuff and most of the hard stuff. At least twice. 271k miles. 1994 E32 740il with nothing but some MPars. 93k miles.
Oh Dear.
BMW E36 M3 Expert
Yes I have the riot cams, my motor was particularly strong for an S52 prior to install as measured on a dyno. I did a number of other things afterwards but I did run just the cams for a short period of time and it was a significant improvement throughout the rev range, but iirc, particularly from 3k all the way to redline. No peaky power delivery, just smooth, torquey pull throughout, felt like a different car. Well worth the money. I have dyno results for before an after but the after is also including other modifications and dyno tuning, etc so not as relevant.
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Since we are discussing RR cams, does anyone have experience with their regrind of M50/52 cams vs S50/52 cams? Would they apply the same profile so the difference would only be whether the cam is hollow or not. I would be tempted to sacrifice a pair of the cheaper cams as cores and keep or sell the S cams. I understand the hollow cams are lighter but the weight is in the center where the delta in inertia is minimized. Thoughts?
does not have 1000hp
Same here. I had just the Riot cams with everything else completely stock for about a week, and it felt stronger from bottom to top with the cams only. Well worth the money and time.
I believe the grind is the same, but you might want to call Riot Racing to confirm.
Whatever weight savings there is will make zero difference to you, I'm sure.
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