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Thread: Help with e60, please. Crank but no start on 2006 525xi.

  1. #1
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    Help with e60, please. Crank but no start on 2006 525xi.

    I was referencing this thread (among many others) and determined that you all may be able to assist me in narrowing down my issue.
    I bought this as a project car and learning experience. It had the dreaded accessory belt issue where the belt shreds and enters the front crank seal. I replaced the seal (the easy part with the right tools) dropped the oil pan (the hard part) and replaced the oil filter housing and oil cooler gaskets along with the belt tensioner. While I was inside the oil pan I inspected for damage due to oil starvation and appear to have dodged that bullet. Valve cover gasket was replaced as well, timing chain inspected and that area cleaned out of belt debris.

    However, now it will crank but not start. Tested for spark, fuel pump seems to be working fine (audible and gas smell when plug removed) but I do not currently have a pressure tester. I also removed the eccentric shaft sensor and tried with no luck.
    Battery is new and started seems strong. My dad watched the camshaft through the oil cap and it seems that the timing is OK, or at least plenty of movement.

    -Codes were cleared, tried to start and got DME code 2F0D which is 'radiator blind, input signal (GLF)'. I assume that is unrelated.
    -Disconnected eccentric shaft sensor and got DME codes 2A31 and 2A32 along with 2A47 which I believe are all due to the eccentric shaft sensor being disconnected. I also have a DSC code 5EBA (steering shaft sensor) which should be unrelated to the no start.

    The only part of the whole reassembly I wasn't totally sure on was reinstalling the valvetronic motor. First time I just installed it. During initial troubleshoot, I removed it thinking that was probably not sufficient, but it seemed to be in the correct position in that it had tension behind just like when I originally removed it. To reinstall the second time, I tightened the 4mm allen on the rear until it was snug against the valve cover and then replaced bolts.

    What should I try next?

    Thank you in advance!

  2. #2
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    Welcome to the forum. Sorry that you have such an issue.

    This is not a good problem for someone who's not intimately familiar with the engine.

    There is absolutely no way I'd have considered doing the oil pan and seal, without also doing the timing. The belt really doesn't just crawl into the oil pan without undoing the timing. The fact that your dad can see the cam turning does not mean the timing is okay.

    Gas smell when plug removed? That's certainly no way to test fuel pressure. You might also want to know that if you've cranked the engine a while, without it starting, you've probably washed away all the compression with too much fuel.

    And, well, you haven't checked compression, either. IF the timing went bad, then there is an ever present likelihood that the valves are bent, and you have zero compression.

    The valvetronic motor should be retaught its limits, using the function on a good BMW diagnostic computer. However, this will not be the reason for your no start.

    If you brought the car to me, I'd check compression, remove the fuel pump fuse, squirt oil in the cylinders, and crank the engine a bit before reinstalling fuel fuse, then I'd lock cams and crank and make sure the timing is correct. Probably it's not.

    Chris Powell
    Racer and Instructor since, well. decades, ok?
    Master Auto Tech, owner of German Motors of Aberdeen
    BMWCCA 274412
    German Motors is hiring ! https://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/s...1#post30831471

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmwdirtracer View Post
    If you brought the car to me, I'd check compression, remove the fuel pump fuse, squirt oil in the cylinders, and crank the engine a bit before reinstalling fuel fuse, then I'd lock cams and crank and make sure the timing is correct. Probably it's not.
    Thank you for the detailed post. It looks like I can rent the BMW timing tool set for $100 for five days locally. That's assuming compression is within spec. Otherwise I guess there is no reason to bother checking timing. Cheaper at that point to find a used engine if valves are bent and no compression. Timing job looks pretty intense, if only because of how much you have to disassemble.

    I don't doubt that it's out of time, as that is really the most logical explanation to the no start. My question is, how the heck did timing change? The chain seems very tight (as in how would it skip a tooth) and the torqued nut on the crankshaft doesn't appear to have been loosened. Not to mention there were barely any pieces of belt in the timing chain area and the chain guide is intact.

  4. #4
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    If the crank bolt didn't loosen, then the timing won't be off. I've seen two engines that put the belt through the seal, and, maybe just coincidentally, both lost timing. I'll add, though, that neither one suffered further damage. The valvetronic quit extending the valves as soon as timing was lost.

    When you do the compression check, you need to disconnect fuel delivery. Your car has an electronically controlled fuel pump. The module is fed by fuse 72, which shows as being in the E-box underhood. It might be better to pull up the front of the rear seat, unbolt the cover panel (driver's side on the E60 if I recall correctly), and unplug the fuel pump itself. I have seen excess gasoline wash away almost every trace of compression, to the point where the tech had pronounced the engine dead.

    Remove the spark plugs, test the compression on each cylinder, then dump a teaspoon of oil in each cylinder, and retest the compression. Forget "specs"; just see if you have ANY compression. After all this being done with the fuel disconnected, put the spark plugs in, hook everything up again, clear the codes, and then plug in the fuel pump and try starting it.

    Chris Powell
    Racer and Instructor since, well. decades, ok?
    Master Auto Tech, owner of German Motors of Aberdeen
    BMWCCA 274412
    German Motors is hiring ! https://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/s...1#post30831471

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmwdirtracer View Post
    If the crank bolt didn't loosen, then the timing won't be off. I've seen two engines that put the belt through the seal, and, maybe just coincidentally, both lost timing. I'll add, though, that neither one suffered further damage. The valvetronic quit extending the valves as soon as timing was lost.

    When you do the compression check, you need to disconnect fuel delivery. Your car has an electronically controlled fuel pump. The module is fed by fuse 72, which shows as being in the E-box underhood. It might be better to pull up the front of the rear seat, unbolt the cover panel (driver's side on the E60 if I recall correctly), and unplug the fuel pump itself. I have seen excess gasoline wash away almost every trace of compression, to the point where the tech had pronounced the engine dead.

    Remove the spark plugs, test the compression on each cylinder, then dump a teaspoon of oil in each cylinder, and retest the compression. Forget "specs"; just see if you have ANY compression. After all this being done with the fuel disconnected, put the spark plugs in, hook everything up again, clear the codes, and then plug in the fuel pump and try starting it.
    Well, I finally had time to attempt a compression test today. I didn't have much time so tested cylinders 1 and 2. Got zero without oil and zero with. It did reek of gas, so at first I was optimistic. I let the engine do about 8 revolutions after putting in the oil, but that should have been sufficient I imagine.

    I guess at this point it's a timing job?

  6. #6
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    Does this engine SOUND normal when you're cranking the starter? An engine with no compression spins fast, and sounds like anything but normal/

    Chris Powell
    Racer and Instructor since, well. decades, ok?
    Master Auto Tech, owner of German Motors of Aberdeen
    BMWCCA 274412
    German Motors is hiring ! https://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/s...1#post30831471

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmwdirtracer View Post
    Does this engine SOUND normal when you're cranking the starter? An engine with no compression spins fast, and sounds like anything but normal/
    It does sound normal to me. The revolution takes around the same amount of time as BMW compression tests I've watched on YouTube.

  8. #8
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    How sure are you about your compression tester? Can you give it a quick try, on another car?

    Chris Powell
    Racer and Instructor since, well. decades, ok?
    Master Auto Tech, owner of German Motors of Aberdeen
    BMWCCA 274412
    German Motors is hiring ! https://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/s...1#post30831471

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmwdirtracer View Post
    How sure are you about your compression tester? Can you give it a quick try, on another car?
    Not sure at all- just got it in the mail today. That was my other thought. I am working from home tomorrow but will experiment with the tester.
    Thanks for the help!

  10. #10
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    chris is giving you good advice but it seems you , in a word, don't know what you are doing. that's a real problem because it means you can hold something that is clearly bad in your hand and not know it... you have no baseline knowledge. so... what needs to happen is that you need to find someone with some basic but genuine skills to stand there and help you out. some one that knows how to operate test equipment and understands the results. you are on a great learning path and when that car starts and runs its going to be a great moment for you but there are some basic but genuine skills you need to develop first. can you do i<script src="https://adservice.google.com/adsid/integrator.sync.js?domain=www.bimmerforums.com" ></script><script >processGoogleTokenSync({"newToken":"FBS"},5);</script>t on your own ? sure . it will be time consuming and expensive but yes... you can do it. having said that if you can find someone to teach you what to look for, how to do things and how to think a problem through , life will be a lot better for you straight away. it doesn't help that you have picked a seriously complex project to start with... a simple 4 cyl inline " analog " motor might have been better but here you are so there you go. you have jumped into the deep end and I admire your spirit and ambition. one word of advice... if you are going to keep doing this, buy tools... don't rent. in the end you will need them for the rest of your life when the addiction finally takes hold. enjoy the ride. I/m 67 and I still have and use tools that I have had for 50 years.
    Last edited by stvsxm; 03-21-2018 at 05:16 AM.

  11. #11
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    I would do the timing first, if your timing is off, you might not have compression.

  12. #12
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    Thanks all. Yes, I know I'm in over my head, but honesty that's how I learn best. But starting with a simpler car would have been ideal. Haha. Just happened to find a good deal.

    I'll confirm functionality of my tester (I'm pretty certain I did the test right) and if that's still a no I'll move on to timing. Won't be for a few days at least because we had our second son this morning. Plenty of time to read and learn though!

  13. #13
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    Take care of the wife and kids. We'll be here when you ask.

    Chris Powell
    Racer and Instructor since, well. decades, ok?
    Master Auto Tech, owner of German Motors of Aberdeen
    BMWCCA 274412
    German Motors is hiring ! https://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/s...1#post30831471

  14. #14
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    Had the belt broke on a friends n52 and it did some damage to the crank seal. In replacing the crank seal, we decided to take off the harmonic balancer and crank sprocket that is cone shape. TIMING OFF if the cone shape sprocket is taken off. Put everything back and it would not fire up. He bought a timing tool and we timed it and reinstalled everything. This time it started right up. Not sure if the n52 is a interference engine but it’s running strong as usual like before the belt issue. Timing is straight forward and no eyeballing timing marks required. When we got cylinder 1 tdc, and flywheel locked the cams were indeed off.

  15. #15
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    Back home from hospital and had some time (nap time!) with father in law to try a couple of things with the car. He knows engines fairly well, though not BMWs specifically.
    We firstly tested my compression tester on something other than my car and it works, though that's not a clear indicator of whether or not I installed it properly or it may not be seating correctly. So just out of curiosity he held his hand over cylinder 1 while I had the tester in 2 and vice versa. We found that there is in fact air movement on both cylinders. What is interesting (though makes sense to me if timing is off) is that he said it felt more like a vacuum instead of air pushing out.
    Now I didn't become a brilliant mechanic with the few hours I spent learning about engines at the hospital, but would that lend that the exhaust camshaft may be off in time? I had intended to order the timing tools today anyway, but if so I'll do so confidently.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by O5BMW525 View Post
    Had the belt broke on a friends n52 and it did some damage to the crank seal. In replacing the crank seal, we decided to take off the harmonic balancer and crank sprocket that is cone shape. TIMING OFF if the cone shape sprocket is taken off. Put everything back and it would not fire up. He bought a timing tool and we timed it and reinstalled everything. This time it started right up. Not sure if the n52 is a interference engine but it’s running strong as usual like before the belt issue. Timing is straight forward and no eyeballing timing marks required. When we got cylinder 1 tdc, and flywheel locked the cams were indeed off.
    Thanks for commenting! I've read so many stories of the crank seal issue and it's amazing how each is unique. Glad to hear your friend's car is up and running! I hope I get that lucky...

  16. #16
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    Just go ahead and rent the tool set, and time the engine. Until that's done, everything is a guess.

    Chris Powell
    Racer and Instructor since, well. decades, ok?
    Master Auto Tech, owner of German Motors of Aberdeen
    BMWCCA 274412
    German Motors is hiring ! https://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/s...1#post30831471

  17. #17
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    Good and bad news.
    I got the engine in time and it started.

    Bad:
    it idles kind of rough and is throwing some codes.

    2A98 Intake camshaft correlation, then my best German translation in MSV70: outside of reference range
    29D1 misfire cylinder 5, something about fuel cutoff
    2FOD radiator blind, line interruption

    Notes:
    -I mechanically reset the valvetronic motor and attempted to perform relearn with ignition on and the ten gas pedal pumps but nothing seemed to happen.
    -Plugs seemed pretty dang old, but I wanted to make sure engine wasn't trashed before ordering new.
    -Same with valve cover breather tube. It was broken and I duct taped it together temporarily.

    What is a good plan of action for the DME codes?
    Last edited by acarpenter86; 04-11-2018 at 09:18 PM.

  18. #18
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    Hmmmmm....

    I am completely unfamiliar with "mechanically resetting" valvetronic.I use a scan tool. That said, well, it resets itself anyway, though codes may be set.

    Bad news is that inlet cam's out of time, if you cleared codes.

    Not to worry, I've got a Mini that KEEPS going out of time, after being reset and retimed, 3 damned times, with correct tools.

    First step is to go back in, and reset timing.

    Chris Powell
    Racer and Instructor since, well. decades, ok?
    Master Auto Tech, owner of German Motors of Aberdeen
    BMWCCA 274412
    German Motors is hiring ! https://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/s...1#post30831471

  19. #19
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    Time is short with the baby. Finally got a few to work.
    Re the mechanical reset, basically I ensured that the motor was engaged on the worm gear and backed it all the way counter clockwise until it stopped. Maybe that info I got was incorrect because when I tried to reset it using the ignition 2/10x gas pedal pump nothing happened.

    Anyway, I removed, cleaned, and swapped the VANOS solenoids yesterday just in case before I do any of the other more labor intensive stuff.Interestingly, the 2A98 code did not come back. I let the engine run for around 2 minutes which I assume would be enough time for it to return?
    It did run a lot smoother as well, barring a slight inconsistency that likely comes from the 92 misfire on cylinder 5 errors I got...


    Should I move on to see what's causing the misfire or is it more appropriate to let the engine run longer and see if 2a98 camshaft correlation comes back?




    Quote Originally Posted by bmwdirtracer View Post
    Hmmmmm....

    I am completely unfamiliar with "mechanically resetting" valvetronic.I use a scan tool. That said, well, it resets itself anyway, though codes may be set.

    Bad news is that inlet cam's out of time, if you cleared codes.

    Not to worry, I've got a Mini that KEEPS going out of time, after being reset and retimed, 3 damned times, with correct tools.

    First step is to go back in, and reset timing.

  20. #20
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    At this point, we're starting from scratch, and that's not a bad thing. In the absence of cam/crank correlation codes, vanos codes, etc, it would be best that you just call it a misfire. Clear all codes, drive the car a couple of miles, and re-read the codes. If all you get are specific cylinder misfires, buy some coils and sparkplugs

    Chris Powell
    Racer and Instructor since, well. decades, ok?
    Master Auto Tech, owner of German Motors of Aberdeen
    BMWCCA 274412
    German Motors is hiring ! https://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/s...1#post30831471

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmwdirtracer View Post
    At this point, we're starting from scratch, and that's not a bad thing. In the absence of cam/crank correlation codes, vanos codes, etc, it would be best that you just call it a misfire. Clear all codes, drive the car a couple of miles, and re-read the codes. If all you get are specific cylinder misfires, buy some coils and sparkplugs

    Replaced plugs, cleared codes, still misfire cylinder 5. So I swapped coil from 2 and 5 and the misfire code changed to cylinder 2... I'm hopeful!

  22. #22
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    I want to thank you for all your help. After replacing the plugs and a faulty coil, the engine now runs well and has no CEL.
    I still have to cure some AWD/DSC issues and chase down a slow coolant leak, but those are very minor compared to the timing being off. I'll post a new thread for those as I have more time to attempt to troubleshoot first.

    Thanks guys!

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