Stripped head bolts

[Shawnk111]

hello everybody. I'm new to the forum and BMW in general, however, I am not new to turning wrenches.

2001 BMW 325i (e46; M54B25)... Purchased with blown head gasket with intention of repairing. I was and am aware of the risks and cost involved but thought maybe id get lucky for once lol.

Today I finally got to the point where I could test whether or not the head bolts would torque down or not .... most of them did lol... sadly 5 of them are stripped...

with the right side being the front of the engine here is how I tightened them all down

-14-8-6-2-4-10-12---> Front
-11-9-3-1-5 -7-13---> Front

so I torqued to 25ft lbs, and all were okay there... then I went back in the same order and did 90 degrees.. that is when #1 and #6 stripped... figured I might as well continue the process, so I went for the second round of 90 degree turn and that is when #3, #5, and #9 stripped.

So all together I have #1, #3, #5, #6, #9 stripped out.... so 9 out of 14 isnt that bad right?? lmao... okay I know its not good lol... Also gonna assume at this point that the head is gonna be warped. obviously will still test it but so much for my irish luck lol

so to my question... can I helicoil it? I know I should use Time-serts... but they're $450 for the kit. I Have enough $$ on hand to do all the other major parts. entire new cooling system, and PCV system as well as a few other odds and ends, but i dont really have an extra $500 on top of all that right now... I definitely wont mind taking it apart again down the road. I mean its gonna be a project for me for the next year or so, so it'll probably be taken apart several times anyways... So do you guy think helicoils will get me by for 5 or 6 months? if it will get me by that long then Id be in great shape and probably have a spare engine sitting around by then.

Thanks for the input guys and girls.. sorry to make the post so long

[jclausen]

I would time Sert

[pbonsalb]

Why do you want to take the motor apart several times in the next year? I am a big fan of doing it right the first time. The helicoil might work fine, might work fine for a while and then pull, or might pull immediately.

[bmwdirtracer]

I would never think of helicoiling this. You need the timesert kit, and you need a fixture, to make sure the tapping and threading is done dead straight. I have done quite a few of these.

However, that's in the past....I'm not going to do them anymore, because it's silly. By the time you tear the engine apart, replace all the gaskets, head bolts, head gasket, etc, have the machine work done, spend all the hours timeserting, ask yourself WHY?

These M54 engines can now be had from a salvage yard for $450 to $500, with a guarantee. The last 2 cars that came in with massive overheats and blown headgaskets, I just swapped in used motors, and saved the customer thousands of dollars.

By the way, standard procedure on a head gasket M54 is to loosen each bolt, then try to retorque it, BEFORE removing the head. And the head ALWAYS goes to the machine shop for milling, because if the gasket's gone, the head IS warped.

[328 Power 04]

Yep, the 2.5 is dirt cheap at junkyards.

[ross1]

However, that's in the past....I'm not going to do them anymore, because it's silly. By the time you tear the engine apart, replace all the gaskets, head bolts, head gasket, etc, have the machine work done, spend all the hours timeserting, ask yourself WHY?

These M54 engines can now be had from a salvage yard for $450 to $500, with a guarantee. The last 2 cars that came in with massive overheats and blown headgaskets, I just swapped in used motors, and saved the customer thousands of dollars.

.

this^
If you are so inclined you can sell off bits from the old engine, sometimes enough to offset the cost of the replacement.

[Shawnk111]

Thanks for all the replies. I definitely agree with the engine swap. That does make the most sense. My problems really stem from the fact that I shouldn't be doing this project right now simply because I currently dont have the amount of time I really need, and the location is terrible. Currently working in a loose stone parking area. Works fine for now unless I try to use an engine hoist. The casters dont like to roll well.

As far as for why i want to have this car apart several times in the next year, is because I want it to be a project. For me this is my education. The amount of research and everything else we do when working on these projects is very educational as well as the work itself teaches us a lot... But I honesty will get depressed if I go too long without working on some kind of project. I was in a motorcycle wreck back in November so Ive been stuck sitting around for months, so I was happy to just be getting to work on something again... I am also in the process of moving back to Florida in the next month or so. Once I get there I will have all the time in the world to tear this thing apart and put in a new engine or whatever. Maybe just buy a nicer one and use this one for spare parts. who knows.

So while I do absolutely agree with you all about doing it correctly with time serts, and agree even more with just doing an engine swap, right now due to my own over eagerness in jumping into this project, I do not have the time or location to really do that properly at this time. What I did not want to do was drive around with a blown head gasket and kill the engine, but I would like to see If i can get it to last me at least 4-6 months. I already planned on having the head machined, but I honestly didn't consider the threads being stripped on the aluminum block. I did test them before removing the head. As a matter of fact, the head still hasnt been removed. I stopped after I tested to see if the bolts would torque or not. Thats really why I ask about the helicoil. Iv used them at work before on transmission stuff, but nothing that required a whole lot of torque. Its affordable for me right now and it would allow me to get the car running again and still be able to afford all the new parts I need for the cooling system. However, I dont want to take time to do it, only to have them pull out as soon as I get to torquing them down, or have it blown again in the next week. If the helicoil wont work temporarily then In my situation I would probably have to just cut my losses and sell whats left of the car for a few hundred dollars

I know helicoil isnt the best way or the right way. Swapping the engine sound like the smartest thing in the blown head gasket situation, However in my situation, If I take the time to do it well, do you guys think the helicoils will get me by for a little while?

[stvsxm]

if this is your education then there are two crucial lessons to be learned here... the first is ti never do anything badly if it is possible to do it correctly. you aren't stuck on a desert island where the only thing between you and survival is a helicoil... if the guys here that have vast experience in doing this ( and that's lesson number two ... always pay attention to the people that actually know what they are talking about . you can always figure out " why " later ) say that the timesert solution is the answer, then that's what you do. don't screw around and don't get into the habit of hacking things together just to move forward. doing things right the first time is a philosophy and a mindset that you develop in the beginning of your career whatever that is. you want to screw around with this car and learn how to do it ? that's great and if you kill it in the process by over reaching or getting in over your head well... that's ok... that's how everybody starts. what you CAN'T do is think you are learning anything by doing things badly for the sake of expedience. that will come back to bite you in the ass someday when you can least afford it and you will be standing by the side of the road with your hot girl friend in her short skirt watching your car burn to the ground and you will remember the day when you read this and ignored it...

[Shawnk111]

Stvsxm... You're right. I do appreciate everyone's input. I remembered that I have a Ford 302 engine that's completely disassembled, but everything is in beautiful condition. I also have the rebuilt AOD transmission that went with it. I think I'm going to try to sell that stuff and hopefully use that buy a new m54.

[stvsxm]

understand it was not meant as criticism. everybody has to learn sometime and somewhere and sometimes a nudge in the right direction early enough gets your thought processes moving in the right direction. anybody that is willing to take a whack at it deserves a pat on the back regardless of your success. I'm sure you'll be fine. and if you are wondering about the hot girlfriend in short skirt by the side of the road watching the car burn... that was me in 1968

[Shawnk111]

Lol, I understand. Im only 28 so I wasnt aroud in 68, but I have had a few hot girlfriends mad at me on the side of the road

[Shawnk111]

so, since we are on the topic, and advice for removing the engine? because I have the hoist, but its not gonna roll in that gravel lol. wish I was on concrete

[stvsxm]

sure... raise the motor with hoist and then roll the car backwards out from under it...

also... depending on who owns the gravel, make a deal and pour yourself a concrete pad to work on.... you could do it with a two shovels, your buddy and 200 $ worth of materials and never work in the dirt again. I lived about 160 miles from lime rock ct. and started racing there in 1974 or so ... it was a dirt paddock and horrible when it rained. after a few years of that , I made a deal with jim Haynes the track manager who let me pour a concrete pad way out of the way in the paddock and that's where I parked forever there after . I worked in the dry when everyone else worked in the mud. work smarter... not harder , grasshopper.

[Shawnk111]

Good idea, this is about the lightest car if ever had to roll lol. Usually I work on old cars like my 88 grand Marquis and it's HEAVY lol. The concrete pad would be a good move, except that I only plan to be in this state for another month or 2 while waiting on injuries to heal. Then it's off to Florida. But I'm sure I'll figure out a way to make it work. I wouldn't have thought of pouring a concrete pad tho, so good advice for the future

[Shawnk111]

while i now agree that the engine swap is the best idea, this original post was about the effectiveness of thread inserts. I was looking online and found this video to be very interesting and relevant to the topic, esepecially for nyone who may read this in the future and think they want to try it. The video basically does a controlled test of helicoils and time serts and key locking inserts inside blocks of aluminium. He tested how much torque it took for the inserts to fail as well as a few other things. Again, I plan to just swap the engine, but thought this video would b relevant to the topic and educational

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LpDduCVUy6w

[pbonsalb]

3/4 inch plywood might work on some gravel for the hoist to roll on. Probably need 2 sheets.

[bmwdirtracer]

I'd think a thick sheet of plywood would be just fine, too.

I couldn't bring myself to watch every minute of the video, sorry. I will say that I don't feel like any of it is very realistic, as much testing as was shown. What we're looking for, here, is what holds up the best when there IS another large chunk of aluminum bolted FLAT on top of the inserted block.. And note that BMW specs are not in a basic torque; they relate to the stretch of the brand new bolt. Oh, and then we need to deal with extreme heat, and extreme cold, for hundreds, even thousands of cycles.

I've installed many timeserts, and VERY many helicoils I use the helicoils on things like valve cover bolts. I use timeserts for head-to-block connections.

But apparently, I missed something. Where did the hottie and the burning car come in?

[Shawnk111]

I thought I would update this post with a conclusion. In the future, dont buy an M54 with a blown head gasket lol....

Many above suggested doing the engine swap, due to the work involved in doing time serts. I fully agreed with them that the best way to go about this was to just get a new engine. Would have been cheaper too. In the end I did not heed their advice. Mainly because of location issues, and I was unable to find an engine in my area for a decent price. Cheapest I could find was $800 with 150,000 miles. So I went ahead and put the labor into doing time serts.

I did not buy the BMW kit that had the mounting bracket and tap guides and all that. I just got the kit that had all the bits ($90), and bought a pack of 24.5mm inserts ($30)... The machine shop who did my heads said I should only do the 5 that stripped when I re-torqued them to test before removing the head. I went ahead and did all 8 around the middle cylinders. When I went to reinstall the head, 2 more of the bolt holes stripped out. (towards the front).... So I said to hell with it and time serted the rest of them as well, so now all 14 bolt holes have been time serted and allowed to sit for a day or 2 before trying to install again.

This time, I had 2 of the time serts fail at 25ft lbs. lol, didnt even get past the first round of torquing lol. So I removed the head again, and waited another week for a "Big Sert" kit to arrive. I did the big sert on the 2 remaining that stripped....

Finally I was able to reinstall the cylinder head.... kind of... torqued in order to 25ft lbs, then used the angle gauge to do the first 90 degree turn on all bolts.... I did so very carefully lol.. almost all of them went great. however, the bolt on the very front left began to feel like it was going to strip. I still had a lot of resistance to it, so it hadnt stripped yet, but i only took it about 30 degrees on the second time around. Same with one on the driver side in the far back. so 2 of them felt like they were possibly going to fail if I continued torquing them. So I decided to just let them be. I had already stretched all the head bolts so If I were to take it apart again i would be waiting (again) for another week on new head bolts. So at this point, im going to continue putting it back together. My guess is that eventually it will fail again, at which point I will hopefully be in a better position to use my engine hoiste and just swap the engine.

So I think my overall point would be, If you are in a location suitable to use a hoist, and can find an engine, just swap it as the guys above said. Yes the time serts will work, but be prepared to a couple hundred bucks on a tool you will hopefully only need to use one time lol, and also have a spare set of head bolts just in case. Also if you are going to time sert a block, make sure you can spare the time for parts, because there is a good chance you may need to order a big sert kit as well and order more head bolts etc etc... iv been working on this car since 2/27/18 and just now got the cylinder heads back on and it will probably fail again before too long.

also money wise,
$90 time sert kit
$30 24.5mm inserts
$90 Big sert kit
$30 5x big sert inserts
$50 for o-rings and gaskets etc
$50 for victor reinz oversized head gasket
$200 for machine work on heads.
$100 for camshaft alignment tool
$30 for PCV system
------------------
$670 in part tools and machine work to replace this head gasket, plus its been sitting for month and a half... If I was in a location to do the engine swap, then I could have just spent an extra $130 and saved time and frustration, and there would be less question as to whether it will fail again soon or not.

as a final note, If I, or someone else were in this predicament again and was going to time sert, I would just suggest using big serts all the way around the first time. Would have worked better and saved me money and time, but only if an engine swap is not an option....

Thanks for reading and thanks to all those above who replied with good solid advice.

[ross1]

I know the scary feeling when the wrench feels "that way". At this point I'd go ahead and apply the full torque, if they go they go. If the gasket isn't fully compressed it certainly will fail.
There is a repair shop near me that specializes in repairing Cadillac Northstar engines which pop head gaskets and annihilate block threads with amazing regularity.
He uses Time-serts and also re-uses the TTY head bolts but won't tell me how much torque he applies to them(trade secret). I suspect it's a bit more than the original TTY process would produce. The moral here is to have confidence in the Time-serts.
It sounds like you were careful, go for it.
What do the others here think?