How does the F22 chassis compare to the E36 as a track/race car?
I currently have an E36 track car and own an F22 street car. I absolutely love my F22. I've been contemplating building up an F22 4 or 6 cylinder car as a race car. It seems like a very nicely built car can be done for less than 1/2 the cost of the M235r factory build (which is a very nice car).
Curious what you all think?
It seems like the E36, as cheap as replacement frames are, is starting to really show its age.
The F22 is like 20 years newer, I'm sure its better technically in every way. Whether its worth the cost or not is up to you.
I'm looking for some objective experience from someone who has tracked the new F22 chassis. Yes, it is newer.. is it better? The E36 is well understood and some modern options like MCS and other high end brands offer a good set of upgrades for the chassis. There are also numerous engine upgrades for the E36. It's part of why I went down this route. Looking at the BMW 235R and owning an F22, I'm wondering how much better the new platform is. Obviously having proper OBD2 makes data acquisition a lot easier...
I am an E30 guy to the core,,, BUT,,, I am smart enough to know the E36 has become the answer to every question that isnt "Miata".
They are plentiful, cheap, relatively inexpensive to operate, setup experience is VAST as are parts,,, and a side bonus is they pretty much self track prep by the interiors stripping themselves.
I dont know jack about F22s,,, but I'll say without a moments hesitation that the E36 is the easy button for a good driving, cost effective track car that has almost limitless potential (and many many proven road maps to get to whatever level you choose). E36s can be very capable reliable weekend HPDE cars,,, all the way to track record holding club race monsters.
Also if you are choosing to race it,,, there are many proven class paths for E36s at every sanctioning body you can think of. The F22, I'm betting you are blazing trails there as well.
Last edited by jimmypet; 03-04-2018 at 10:54 PM.
jimmy p.
88 E30 M3 Zinnoberot - street
88 E30 M3 Lachsilber - SCCA SPU
87 E30 M3 Prodrive British Touring Car 2.0 Litre
04 Ford F350 - V10
06 Audi A3 Brilliant Red / 2.0 / DSG
04M3 TiAg 69k slick-top 3 pedal
99M3 Cosmos 61k S50B32 euro 6Spd
88M3 AW 43k miles Project FS
WTB: 3.5" Eurosport/Conforti CAI
Thanks for the response. It is good feedback and part of the reason why I ended up with an E36 track car (my 2nd now). I know the platform fairly well as I did the S52 swap, OBD1 conversion, suspension upgrades and pretty much everything else. As I have gone down this path, things get very expensive. The starting point for the platform is not necessarily an indicator of where things will eventually cost. I spent a ton of money building my track car; far more than I thought. My $1.5k donor chassis has 10s of thousands invested in it now, plus several hundred hours of my time. As I'm done focusing on building the car for a while and shift to building up my skills again after a year off, I have started to wonder what would be the next car. The 235r is intriguing; they seem very fast at events I have seen and very reliable. As an F22 owner, I have to say the chassis feels great; reminds me of an E36!
Consumables, even for a spec miata and E36, add up quickly.
Well,,, JMHO if consumable costs are in your mind,, then going to a newer, heavier, mor complicated track car is not the droid you are looking for.
All of the things you stated are common across any car, any platform. Yep, the more developed the car gets the more it costs.
Yes, you can buy a Spec Miata for ~$12K,,, and have alot of fun with it,,, but want to run at the front,,, better raise that to ~$50K.
Same applies for E36s. There are "plenty" of 6 figure E36s running around in BMW Club Racing.
You can buy and build a weekend drive it to the track E36 HPDE car for not very much money, but the more you develop the car yes its going to cost more.
There is nothing specific to the platform there. The same applies to any car you choose to track.
jimmy p.
88 E30 M3 Zinnoberot - street
88 E30 M3 Lachsilber - SCCA SPU
87 E30 M3 Prodrive British Touring Car 2.0 Litre
04 Ford F350 - V10
06 Audi A3 Brilliant Red / 2.0 / DSG
https://youtu.be/iBkObmAPvs0?t=9m24s
e30 vs f30 but you get the idea
I have a 1994 e36 M3 track car and a 2017 F20 M140i.
My fastest lap in the e36 - 67.6 on Advan A050s
My fastest laps in the M140i - 68.4 on Advan AD08rs
One major difference is the weight. E36 starting weight was 1450kgs, after basic stripping and addition of half cage less than 1300kgs
M140i weight is 1548kgs.
Other is power, the e36 had a stock S50B30 (euro 280hp spec) and would hit a top speed of ~194kmh and the M140i ~204kmh.
The M140i has potential but just feels soft and heavy, throttle response is nowhere near as good and even with everything turned off it still feels like the electronics are doing stuff.
The e36 is honest, predictable and as a result easier to drive fast.
Basic mod lists
E36:
Car: 1994 M3.Engine: Stock S50B30 Diff: 3.91 stock LSDGearbox, shifter and clutch: StockExhaust: Custom 3"Suspension: BC ER Coilovers, Poly bushings, stock sway barsTyres: Advan A050 245/40/17Wheels: Apex Arc8 17x9"Brakes: Stock with PFC08 padsWeight: 1298kgs full tank no driver, AGI half cage, 1 fixed back seat.
M140i:
M Performance LSD
Advan GT wheels and AD08R tyresEndless MX72 brake Pads and Endless RF650 fluidOhlins Road and Track Coilovers with Vorshlag camber plates.
You guys are answering a question he didn't ask. He didn't mention bang for the buck. He said a race car build and compared the budget to half of a factory build.
If the question is which chassis, built as a proper race car with a high budget is faster, F22 all day. It's probably the best chassis in modern BMW history. It's probably 5x stiffer than an noodly E36, a little wider, fits wider rubber, way better aero. I don't know for a fact, but i'm sure the suspension geometry is improved. If given a choice do you really think Turner would show up in an E36?
If the implied question is which is more sensible on a club motorsport budget level, then sure, an E36 might be considered for budget reasons.
If that is indeed the question and it's full racecar with a big budget and the ability to code out all the nannies in the F22 then do that.
Club level on a modest budget I would take an e36.
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