Honestly I see no point in arguing with you, but you have no clue what you are talking about. M64 is actually more complex than an M70, this is coming from someone that has actually rebuilt them. Also if you are talking about power, M70 had ALOT more potential than the M64 trust me. Lets end this pointless discussion.
An 850 cost about as much as a Ferrari when it came out why wouldn’t they compare. Hell an F355, not even their big boy model for that era, cost you $130,000 brand new. Is better in every conceivable way with a 3.5 liter V8 making more power than any 8 series ever made.
You can get an S62 rotating assembly for like $2,000 and put it right in an M60 after boring it out a little. The M62B44 is inferior because it’s single row timing chain and has that crappy U shaped center guide rail instead of the sprocket, but you can still build a stroker with S62 parts for cheap.
There’s a reason VAC and a lot of these race teams use the M6x engines and not some doodoo M7x.
Lol! The F355 was a sports car with a lot less weight. That engine with all that horsepower would need an engine out rebuild when the m70 was just broken in. The 456GT would be closer in class and cost double and had marginally better performance stats. It would also need an engine out rebuild about the same time the m70 broke 6 digits on the odometer.
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Further to this the F355 was double MSRP to the base model 850i. The 456GT was triple.
I just don’t know what people were paying for when the 850 came out or why anyone likes this V12. If the new 8 series came out today and ran similar trap speeds as as 340i but was a little prettier and had a few cool gadgets and cost $100,000 more do you think people would buy it? No.
All this aside I do like them or else I wouldn’t have bought one.
Yes. People shell out $60k on old T1 vans and they have a 40 second quarter mile. If every car purchase boiled down to performance Porsche would be the largest manufacturer in the world. There's a lot to the 850i you wont admit to. The same drag co-efficient as a bullet goes along way over 250+ km/h. Its something you cannot measure bench racing on the internet.
Last edited by Torston; 02-21-2018 at 01:28 PM.
I never realized the 830 was actually a diesel. I think that would be cool to have from a collectors point of view. Probably be worth more than an 850csi right now. Cooler would have been if they went ahead and rammed one of those v16 Goldfisch's into an 8. That and the M8 would be like a free trip to Valhalla as far as late 80's early 90's autobahn cruisers go.
That 95 sounds like it has the M73 12 and not the M70. Only a little less then 400 ever made it to these shores. (Someone here will have the exact number). My 95 850 has a 2/95 build date with the M73 and I much, very much prefer it over my 97 840 with the M62. The mid-range torque of the M73 is where its at! It's very addictive, just squeeze the throttle and you just get shoved back in the seat.
The A2 is limited now (Berlin to Hannover). The A24 outside of Hamburg to the overpass with the A19 is unlimited, that's a good spot to let it loose. I couldn't even count the times I've driven the A24 back and forth. 40 kilometers every ten minutes and the only thing passing you at that rate is a Porsche. Or the newer M cars. The A20 is also good. As is the A7 past Hessen by Rothenburg Ob Der Tauber. Did 305kmh in a 2009 M3 on the A39. But that was only for a short period.
Planning on buying a small country house over there with my woman. Going to send over my stable where it belongs. Can't do this in Canada any more, my next ticket will put me in jail.
1) Stock 300hp, but most of the owners on this forum have LSDs, Chips etc etc and make more than that.
2) CSI S70 Stock ok, but again there are so many ways to squeeze HP out of the CSI. Last Dyno on my S70 with following mods I got 412 HP and does not include the new improved chips that a forum member sent me from UK.
Bored out throttle, upgraded injectors, Supersprint X Pipe and exhaust/mufflers, honed and extruded intakes, and DME chips.
3) Supercharge the M70 it and it becomes a whole different car.....
4) M60 is a cool car also, wit 3:64 rear end and then Dinan Supercharger. I had 840ci 1994 since 2006 and now it is retired
Last edited by alex840; 02-21-2018 at 07:27 PM.
This is extremely stupid way to justify this engine. A lot smaller and more reasonable engine could have done that. Like M60. This 300 hp m70 850i takes all your money in the tank and doesn't give anything as a return. E31 would have been a lot more interesting in the 90's if it would have make 400hp.
I even tried 3,91 lsd and wokke V2 and the result was that now it took even more my money in the tank with little better performance. No way as good mods as everyone here praises. These m70 engines are hazardous waste.
Last edited by mikae31; 02-22-2018 at 10:25 AM.
l it needed to do was get out of its own way and do it SMOOTHLY.
Stock was enough for the people who bought it, and it's still safe to drive on the modern highway. It's lightweight and drinks pretty much the same as the M106 it replaced, and much better than the old Mercedes M117 in the competitor's cars for the first 5 years.
Last edited by XAlt; 02-22-2018 at 11:01 AM.
Go back to 1990 and say that. The Ford Mustang GT had 225 hp. The Corvette base model wasn't much better. The only engine in BMW's line up at that time that made more hp was in the M5 and it had waaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyy less torque. And they are prone to catastrophic failure. The m60 was developed FIVE years after the m70 and still had less hp and torque. Comparing late 80's performance standards with late 90's or early 2000's is apples to oranges.
Dragon said it best, the m70 wasn't designed as a world beater. It was designed to push big sedans and luxury coupes at a high rate of speed for 100's of thousands of kilometers without fail. The 850 with its gearing and drag coefficient does that with ease, grace and style. Squeezing more performance out of an engine is a tight rope walk the manufacturer often doesn't want to deal with. An unbalanced engine leads to warranty repair and disgruntled customers. Unless you own a Ferrari nobody is going to put up with that.
Expecting fuel economy from a 2000 kg v12 car is like sitting around wondering why Anna Kournikova hasn't called to ask me out on a date yet. There are certain laws of nature that cannot be overcome, even by wishful thinking.
Maybe if BMW designers of the e31 designed the car to look like a half beaten box with a square nose and rear-end, then perhaps the hard-to-please crowd dis'ing the V12 (because a V12 inherently is supposed to be exotic and godly powerful...as it's assumed) wouldn't criticize it so badly. Fortunately for the rest of us, the e31's design is so graceful, beautiful, and timeless, it comes down to the choice of a v8 or v12. Many prefers the v8 over the other due to maintenance costs and upkeep perhaps; and the latter prefer the v12 just because it's a v12 and it's affordable (in the world of v12 cars that aces in the looks department). Both offer about the same horsepower output as we all know so again, it's a matter of choice.
Some has the resources to boost their v12s and that's great...to each his/her own and personally, I would love to go down that route but it may be a bit too technically challenging for me.
Take the Lamborghini Countach LP500 S for example. A supercar about the same era as the e31 and its 4.8l v12 motor produced 276kW or 370hp. That's not too far off from a normal aspirated e31 v8 and v12.
Anyways, like Torston mentioned, comparing apples to oranges. It just doesn't make sense. The e31 is such a beautiful and yet affordable piece of automotive history from BMW. Enjoy it while we still can. If not, walk away, sell the car and get something with gobs of power and call it a day.
First, to the poster who'd asked about the E31, There's a buyers checklist posted here on the site and also on the Chapter Website. Check it out and keep asking questions. One thing to check is inside the box on the firewall on the right hand side. Check to see that the the last 7 of the VIN# is labeled on each ECU. I had a friend who got an E31 nearly for free because the previous owner couldn't keep it running. It would start and die seconds later every time.I looked and discovered an ECU for a 325 installed in one of the slots. I dropped a spare in its place that I had and the car ran flawless. Imagine that.
@ Killian665:
Okay... who pee'd in your corn flakes?
(So many thoughts..so little time...but I'll spend a few moments here -- gotta get to the airport) Okay here goes...
"potential for power"
First let me say and I'm certain I'm not the only witness to this. I remember a situation on I-85 where a "driver" of a 5 Series just about broke his neck to run up on a pair of white E31s. He was obviously looking to prove something. There must have been about 25 E31s out there at the time. This guy decides he's going to take on a twin-turbo'd V12 and a chipped V8. They had him for lunch from go. What surprised me personally (because at that time I was still relatively new to the E31s) was that the V8 was right there with the V12 all the way. Impressive. The potential for power was very adequately displayed that day.
As an owner of a V12 and a previous owner of a number of "muscle cars" I can tell you have no idea of which you speak. But don't feel bad. You are not alone. I see people "talking out the side of their necks" daily.
Is the E31 perfect? No car is "perfect".
From experience of ownership, for me, the breakdowns and parts hunts etc. are far outweighed by the experience had when things were rolling along.
Maybe some get a kick out of people striking up conversations at traffic lights, taking pictures as one drives by or looking up at the rear view mirror to see all sorts of people pointing and using their phones to take photos. I still can't get used to that and I'll be the first to tell you my ride is no way "pristine". I simply just like driving the car. (I could be snide and ask the last time that's happened to you...but that would be wrong and not my point at all).
I can say no other vehicle has pulled through when I needed to get there the most. Like the time when I needed to get home to make funeral travel arrangements and one of the ECUs had failed... yeah the other six got me there. So two ECUs and two distributors counted a lot that day, no?
As far as the M70 I'd say yes it can be considered maybe a little over engineered but I can also say through out failures (and I've had some) I am constantly impressed by this engine and what it has "put up with" and kept running... So I'll tolerate the engineering.
I'm not familiar with the specs of a Buick LeSabre though there have been a Buick Wildcat and a series of 225s (all 455CID) in my family going way back and I can tell you given the choice of experiences, maybe you'd choose the LeSabre but I am certain I'm not the only one who'd instead choose door #2.
As far as parts, "TXGr8White" is on point about Gault. I needed a drive shaft and the local "stealership" advised that only 2 remained available anywhere and it would take a month and $3k. Gault got the same part from the same place (Munich) for 1/3rd the price in four days. Can you imagine that happening if you needed a part for that 540i? If so, lucky you.
Soundwise...it is all a matter of taste. Personally, I'd rather not let anyone know I was coming until I was standing next to them. I have no need to "trumpet" my progress but that's just me. I dunno about the rest of the gang but I like the low hum of my ride.
Info about the these car can be hard to find BUT thanks to the efforts of many people like Dragon and Timm and countless others who've helped me (a long list) when I needed info or assistance, receiving help is not like the search for the holy grail. On this site AND on the chapter website people have submitted documentation on a number of topics including Manuals, How-To's etc.
(I could be misreading the attitude presented here by you but...) I think you miss out on a lot with such an attitude because in the 10 years of ownership I can say I've been fortunate to meet some really nice people and have developed some good friendships. These folks own both 8 and 12s, autos and sticks. And...actually when it all boils down...what they drove up in really didn't matter after all.
"Don’t know why anyone would own one except to say I own a V12 even if it’s one of the worst ones ever developed":
Might need to enlarge your circle of friends... add some variety... take it up a notch...
About a year ago, an 8 owner showed up at one of my client's shops and they told him about me. Turned out we'd grown up in NY literally minutes apart in the same town. The only reason we'd never met was because we went to different high schools. And after connecting by phone we'd spent maybe a month just gabbing about cars, music whatever. It wasn't about who we were or what we did. A month or so after that we met face to face for the first time by accident at a corporate function I almost didn't attend. It was like meeting lost family. Then we found out we lived maybe 15 minutes from each other way down here in sunny Florida. Go figure. Then it happened to me again! Both are owners of 840s and the rides are no joke. Some have their differences as all humans do but I suspect there still remains a level of respect for one another (most times heheheheh).
It's a car. Okay? Just that. Would I go around blasting something I've never had real experiences with in such a manner? No. Truth? I almost brought a 540i a few years back. Nice car. Really. But I needed something to haul stuff for my 850Ci so I got an X5 instead. Did you know that 4 litre had so much torque? Who knew? HAHAHAHAHAH!!! (irony...).
Enjoy your day.
-B
- - - Updated - - -
First, to the poster who'd asked about the E31, There's a buyers checklist posted here on the site and also on the Chapter Website. Check it out and keep asking questions. One thing to check is inside the box on the firewall on the right hand side. Check to see that the the last 7 of the VIN# is labeled on each ECU. I had a friend who got an E31 nearly for free because the previous owner couldn't keep it running. It would start and die seconds later every time.I looked and discovered an ECU for a 325 installed in one of the slots. I dropped a spare in its place that I had and the car ran flawless. Imagine that.
@ Killian665:
Okay... who pee'd in your corn flakes?
(So many thoughts..so little time...but I'll spend a few moments here -- gotta get to the airport) Okay here goes...
"potential for power"
First let me say and I'm certain I'm not the only witness to this. I remember a situation on I-85 where a "driver" of a 5 Series just about broke his neck to run up on a pair of white E31s. He was obviously looking to prove something. There must have been about 25 E31s out there at the time. This guy decides he's going to take on a twin-turbo'd V12 and a chipped V8. They had him for lunch from go. What surprised me personally (because at that time I was still relatively new to the E31s) was that the V8 was right there with the V12 all the way. Impressive. The potential for power was very adequately displayed that day.
As an owner of a V12 and a previous owner of a number of "muscle cars" I can tell you have no idea of which you speak. But don't feel bad. You are not alone. I see people "talking out the side of their necks" daily.
Is the E31 perfect? No car is "perfect".
From experience of ownership, for me, the breakdowns and parts hunts etc. are far outweighed by the experience had when things were rolling along.
Maybe some get a kick out of people striking up conversations at traffic lights, taking pictures as one drives by or looking up at the rear view mirror to see all sorts of people pointing and using their phones to take photos. I still can't get used to that and I'll be the first to tell you my ride is no way "pristine". I simply just like driving the car. (I could be snide and ask the last time that's happened to you...but that would be wrong and not my point at all).
I can say no other vehicle has pulled through when I needed to get there the most. Like the time when I needed to get home to make funeral travel arrangements and one of the ECUs had failed... yeah the other six got me there. So two ECUs and two distributors counted a lot that day, no?
As far as the M70 I'd say yes it can be considered maybe a little over engineered but I can also say through out failures (and I've had some) I am constantly impressed by this engine and what it has "put up with" and kept running... So I'll tolerate the engineering.
I'm not familiar with the specs of a Buick LeSabre though there have been a Buick Wildcat and a series of 225s (all 455CID) in my family going way back and I can tell you given the choice of experiences, maybe you'd choose the LeSabre but I am certain I'm not the only one who'd instead choose door #2.
As far as parts, "TXGr8White" is on point about Gault. I needed a drive shaft and the local "stealership" advised that only 2 remained available anywhere and it would take a month and $3k. Gault got the same part from the same place (Munich) for 1/3rd the price in four days. Can you imagine that happening if you needed a part for that 540i? If so, lucky you.
Soundwise...it is all a matter of taste. Personally, I'd rather not let anyone know I was coming until I was standing next to them. I have no need to "trumpet" my progress but that's just me. I dunno about the rest of the gang but I like the low hum of my ride.
Info about the these car can be hard to find BUT thanks to the efforts of many people like Dragon and Timm and countless others who've helped me (a long list) when I needed info or assistance, receiving help is not like the search for the holy grail. On this site AND on the chapter website people have submitted documentation on a number of topics including Manuals, How-To's etc.
(I could be misreading the attitude presented here by you but...) I think you miss out on a lot with such an attitude because in the 10 years of ownership I can say I've been fortunate to meet some really nice people and have developed some good friendships. These folks own both 8 and 12s, autos and sticks. And...actually when it all boils down...what they drove up in really didn't matter after all.
"Don’t know why anyone would own one except to say I own a V12 even if it’s one of the worst ones ever developed":
Might need to enlarge your circle of friends... add some variety... take it up a notch...
About a year ago, an 8 owner showed up at one of my client's shops and they told him about me. Turned out we'd grown up in NY literally minutes apart in the same town. The only reason we'd never met was because we went to different high schools. And after connecting by phone we'd spent maybe a month just gabbing about cars, music whatever. It wasn't about who we were or what we did. A month or so after that we met face to face for the first time by accident at a corporate function I almost didn't attend. It was like meeting lost family. Then we found out we lived maybe 15 minutes from each other way down here in sunny Florida. Go figure. Then it happened to me again! Both are owners of 840s and the rides are no joke. Some have their differences as all humans do but I suspect there still remains a level of respect for one another (most times heheheheh).
It's a car. Okay? Just that. Would I go around blasting something I've never had real experiences with in such a manner? No. Truth? I almost brought a 540i a few years back. Nice car. Really. But I needed something to haul stuff for my 850Ci so I got an X5 instead. Did you know that 4 litre had so much torque? Who knew? HAHAHAHAHAH!!! (irony...).
Enjoy your day.
-B
(I forgot to add.. on extended runs..I've seen 25+ MPG too from a +24 year old car no less...)
A few folks here may remember what a TT M70 did to a "hot rod" during one of our rides.
And this is what 8's are for-
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And, those Mercedes are no big deal after 120mph either.
We have had caravans of 6-8 cars with a mix of 850/840's for thousands of miles coming across country for gatherings. Never had to wait on a 840 to hang right with the rest of us.
Last edited by TTTXGreg; 02-22-2018 at 03:14 PM.
I have 3 witnesses that crossed an entire state of 59 miles in 37 minutes (I will leave the state anonymous). That was behind a cocky Z06 and us with the brakes on! Could have been quicker.
To all the V12 beaters....you have no clue. To quote Dragon850 "Let's end this pointless discussion"
Select the car that meets your needs. These are not "sports cars" or 1/4 mile rockets.
Here's a thought....We live in rural west Texas. Any air connections always demand a layover/relay at DFW to go anywhere. Highways from here west are still really "Wild West" if you play right. We can be in Albuquerque quicker than flying. It's 500 miles, and a whole lot more comfy in our 8! Low flying vs altitude.
Last edited by TTTXGreg; 02-23-2018 at 01:55 AM.
So what have we learned here? Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and a little respect goes a long way. It is in the presentation of said opinion where things go off the rails. If you really love the 8 series, you love and appreciate them all, that's right, all of them, right down to and including poor old Louis Vuitton. Buy the version that in your opinion is the best, and enjoy the hell out of it. JMHO of course.
Last edited by 72tpik5; 02-23-2018 at 07:58 AM.
Desecrator of all things Sacred
V8 vs V12 ? I've never driven a standard 850 but I have driven an E38 4.4 v8 with a 5 speed auto and it was a beautiful car to drive and very fast. I would imagine a late 840 with the same box would be pretty much identical. I'd like to see a standard 850 given the same CR as a CSi or slightly higher, remapped with a set of CSi cams. I bet it would be pretty quick.
V12 guys say V8s are 4 short. In reality the V12s are 10 short. Short 2 cams and short 10 valves. Old technology.
The V12 guys started it...
Seriously though...who cares at this point? All these motors are old but offer more than enough for the car's purpose. I think the M73 is pretty cool even today, but the M70 was pretty far behind the M120 in terms of output (but what wasn't). The gap between the M60/M62 and the M119 isn't as large, but the M119 is such a nice motor that BMW's V8 looks pretty lame. Mercedes engineering puts all of this stuff to shame. Thanks to Olin for the history lessons.
Car looks cool and is pretty unique. Motor will never be something to call people up over.
Was this forum ever great?
Last edited by toomanyparts; 03-02-2018 at 01:04 AM.
What "thumbs up" really means
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