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Thread: V12 wanna-bee...

  1. #1
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    V12 wanna-bee...

    Hello, I usually stick to the e39 forum since it relates to my 2001 540i. I have always lusted after an 850 with a V12 though and one has come up in my area. It's a 95 and I'm wondering whether any (or all) of you have run into any age related issues with your cars. I've also heard horror stories about "two halves" of the engine management system not staying in sync. I was wondering if this was a real issue or just something isolated. I'm familiar with what I'd look for as maintenance issues on the e39 v8 but are there things that I should look out for on the V12 or the automatic trans behind it? Or the driveshaft, rear end, and axles even further behind it... I also assume suspension arms are things to check on, just as they would on an e39 but is there any area that's more susceptible to wear that I should look out for?Thanks for you time in advance.

  2. #2
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    Nothing on this car is like an E39. I also have a 540 and have for a few years. Then I bought an 840 because the V12s are kinda dumpy.

    But everything is expensive, any time something comes from the dealer it comes from Germany, a lot of things are NLA, there’s not near as much information out there as there is on the E39, a lot more random electrical problems, it’s a totally different car.

  3. #3
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    Then I bought an 840 because the V12s are kinda dumpy.

    Desecrator of all things Sacred

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by killian665 View Post
    ... Then I bought an 840 because the V12s are kinda dumpy...
    Well, if you want to run with the big dogs, you gotta get off the porch...

    The whole "V12 is inferior to V8" myth is just that. I have both an 840 and an 850 at the house, and the 840 is much more finicky (with half the miles) as the V12, and presents greater challenges in diagnosing and repairing (not by much though). Most all the parts are still available, and the vast majority can be found in BMW Distribution Centers in various parts of the country, if the dealer doesn't have it in stock. GAULT BMW has been great with getting the right parts quickly. That and the existence of this forum, makes any problem on this cars basically a non-issue - there isn't anything that hasn't been seen before.
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  5. #5
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    I just don’t like the V12. A 5 liter V12 that barely makes 300 horsepower, sick. The M60 has a lot more potential, they sound better, shared parts with other cars that are more common. I just don’t see an upside to the V12. Unless it’s like a CSi and even then lol. 5.6 liter V12, doesn’t even make 400 horsepower. Rather build an M60.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by killian665 View Post
    I just don’t like the V12. A 5 liter V12 that barely makes 300 horsepower, sick. The M60 has a lot more potential, they sound better, shared parts with other cars that are more common. I just don’t see an upside to the V12. Unless it’s like a CSi and even then lol. 5.6 liter V12, doesn’t even make 400 horsepower. Rather build an M60.
    While horsepower is a nice thing, that is not what these cars are about. Stick with the V8, because the E31 Group needs owners and drivers for those models too.
    '93 850Ci - Mineralweiß Metallic

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  7. #7
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    @ killian The point, sir, of the V-12 is smoothness. The 8 is a refined GT not a boy racer's car.
    @OP The 8 chassis has lots of parts unique to it hence expensive, the V-12 doesn't have any unique problems aside having two of most everything.
    With the 8 you get all the usual BMW foibles with an extra dose of obsolete, hard to find and expensive parts. It's the price you pay for the experience. The value of that experience being subjective. Asking here if it's worth it is a moot point.
    If you think running a BMW V-12 is expensive try one with a horsey on the badge. Then there is always Jag-oo-Rs, I hear they have similar running costs to a modern Honda or Toyota .
    Last edited by ross1; 02-21-2018 at 08:51 AM.

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  8. #8
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    Least with the horse badge you’ll outrun a new Camry lol.

  9. #9
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    My apologies up front as I know (better) that these types of questions can stir up subjective hornet's nests but where else is a guy supposed to start? I agree about the V12 vs V8 thing, the 12 is for smoothness (IMHO) not power. I'd be replacing a 99 Jag XJR with a V8 that does make almost 400 hp and is distinctive as well as a nice smooth cruising ride. I always liked the look of the 8 series, almost like an M1 and I know the V8 well (M62Tu anyway) so an 840 would make more sense but everyone knows the rule, "everyone should own a V12 before they die" so it's either this or the Jag V12 that makes significantly less hp than the V8's (or a Camry or my manvan...)
    Specifically though I was wondering if things like timing chains (actually tensioners & guides), water pump connections (M62Tu's have a rear crossover and two front to back tubes), VANOS units were issues for the V12's. Are the automatics and other drivetrain parts reliable or would I be looking at replacing things on a 100k mile car? I'm thinking the engine computers could be an issue based on using two parts to do the job of one in most cars but am not sure if these are mileage/ age failures or bad apple type failures, like most electrical components (fail early or work forever). Are engine monitoring pieces (knock sensors, O2 sensors, etc) issues to replace (access) or keep in sync with the rest of the system (eg: fuel trim on one bank goes out but it's a sensor not the management computer?
    I love my Jag but it's got some annoyances (Merc trans, door cables, worn suspension parts (only 80 k miles) brittle coolant hoses under the supercharger, etc) and my Beemer seems to be fairly stable (what idiot says something like that out loud?) after fixing the issues it came to me with so I'm thinking the 850 might be my most attractive V12 option.
    Again, thanks for taking the time to entertain these questions.

  10. #10
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    The V12 doesn't have a VANOS, and it only has one cam per bank. It's the same old rehashed 60's design with some neat little tricks, and can be worked on by a monkey.

    V12 4HP24s are bulletproof, 5HP30s slightly less, and the final run of V8s had the 5HP24, which isn't particularly good.


    I had an E39 540i/6 and an E32 750, would take the latter any day of the week on a cruise.
    Last edited by XAlt; 02-21-2018 at 11:14 AM.

  11. #11
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    Dude, buying a v12 850i is an existentialist experience. Don't put a lot of thought in to it, just do it. To paraphrase Nietzsche: "There are things you can do to set yourself apart from other men, buying a v12 850i is one of them".

    Simply put, all the negatives are monetary in regards to maintenance and repair. Period. The positives are many. The car was designed by the hand of God. It is one of the most beautiful BMW's ever built and that is saying a lot. The V12 'fits'. It belongs under that hood and is one of the rarer BMW engines built, whether the m70, m73 or s70. The m60 is okay, but it is not a v12 and lacks the torque and additional horsepower. One can lament about present day Camry's in comparison and I would just snort and say sure until you unhook the limiter and go all out on an unlimited autobahn or lonely east Texas highway. At that point I know which car I want to be in. Plus Camry's are appliances and have no soul. And they don't got a V12.

    I like the Jaguar V12. That and the 850i is something you'd win the Cannonball run in. Or an s62 M5. The m60 is pleb tier, it will always be second best.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Torston View Post
    Dude, buying a v12 850i is an existentialist experience. Don't put a lot of thought in to it, just do it. To paraphrase Nietzsche: "There are things you can do to set yourself apart from other men, buying a v12 850i is one of them".

    Simply put, all the negatives are monetary in regards to maintenance and repair. Period. The positives are many. The car was designed by the hand of God. It is one of the most beautiful BMW's ever built and that is saying a lot. The V12 'fits'. It belongs under that hood and is one of the rarer BMW engines built, whether the m70, m73 or s70. The m60 is okay, but it is not a v12 and lacks the torque and additional horsepower. One can lament about present day Camry's in comparison and I would just snort and say sure until you unhook the limiter and go all out on an unlimited autobahn or lonely east Texas highway. At that point I know which car I want to be in. Plus Camry's are appliances and have no soul. And they don't got a V12.

    I like the Jaguar V12. That and the 850i is something you'd win the Cannonball run in. Or an s62 M5. The m60 is pleb tier, it will always be second best.
    It is people like you that start all this 12 vs 8 crap. There is nothing wrong with the m60, more advanced engine for one thing. Always someone on here that has to make him self feel better because he has a 12 cyl. I do not care what engine they have, we should all just love the e31 for what it is.

  13. #13
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    "Camry's are appliances and have no soul. And they don't got a V12."
    Well said..

  14. #14
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    I would never brag about a $10,000 V12 turd box that runs the same quarter mile as an E30 325 Lololol. 5 liters and 12 cylinders, makes 10 more horsepower than a V8 a whole liter smaller. “But I gots 12 of em pleb.” Garbage motor lol.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by killian665 View Post
    I would never brag about a $10,000 V12 turd box that runs the same quarter mile as an E30 325 Lololol. 5 liters and 12 cylinders, makes 10 more horsepower than a V8 a whole liter smaller. “But I gots 12 of em pleb.” Garbage motor lol.
    Come back when you get walked by a Dinan TT.

    The M70 has always been a lazy low compression motor based on a proven design, all it needs to do is move a luxobarge along at 155. It was never meant as a world beater, most of the R&D went into the things surrounding the engine. And it still sent Daimler Benz into a death spiral
    Last edited by XAlt; 02-21-2018 at 12:23 PM.

  16. #16
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    Oh yeah all like 6 of those in existence I’ll be sure to keep a lookout lol. Mercedes has always crapped on bmw with their engines, not sure what a failed car like the 8 series would have done to anything Mercedes made in that era.

    Gotta take it to some tuner company and spend $50,000+ to get 520 horsepower on top of your $100,000 car. What a joke lol.
    Last edited by killian665; 02-21-2018 at 12:29 PM.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by killian665 View Post
    Oh yeah all like 6 of those in existence I’ll be sure to keep a lookout lol. Mercedes has always crapped on bmw with their engines, not sure what a failed car like the 8 series would have done to anything Mercedes made in that era.
    Take a look at the development of the W140 and come back

  18. #18
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    All of their V12 models took a fat shit on any V12 bmw could even think of.

  19. #19
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    All the R129s made more power than the 8 series. Their normal non amg V8s made more power than BMWs V12, then the AMG 6,7 and 7.3 V12s absolutely destroyed them lol. 1995 SL73 makes 525 horsepower NA. That would be a direct competitor to an 850CSi or even a dinan twin turbo. You had to buy an 850 then take it somewhere else and spend half the purchase price of the car to make the power Mercedes was making in that era without forced induction. And even then you’d probably still get a bus length pulled on you lol.

  20. #20
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    1995 SL73 was almost double the price of the 8.
    M70 is perfect for forced induction, and no you do not need 50k to do that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by barry8108 View Post
    It is people like you that start all this 12 vs 8 crap. There is nothing wrong with the m60, more advanced engine for one thing. Always someone on here that has to make him self feel better because he has a 12 cyl. I do not care what engine they have, we should all just love the e31 for what it is.
    I didn't start anything, your buddy up thread did. Go piss on his leg.

  22. #22
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    Lets calm down guys, to each his own... the V8 840 is not bad it's just different, I don't think I would own one...but wait I actually do, the 1997 4.4L.. But personally I would always prefer to drive the V12 myself even before I had 600HP.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by killian665 View Post
    I would never brag about a $10,000 V12 turd box that runs the same quarter mile as an E30 325 Lololol. 5 liters and 12 cylinders, makes 10 more horsepower than a V8 a whole liter smaller. “But I gots 12 of em pleb.” Garbage motor lol.
    First off the 850i is faster in all specs to the e30 325i. And secondly if I bought cars based on quarter mile performance I'd have a stable full of Muscle cars. I like big heavy bullets with a lot of high end. The V12 is icing on the cake.

  24. #24
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    Point is it’s a butthole engine. It’s overcomplicated where it doesn’t count, 2 ECUS and 2 distributors but we’re gonna give it 2 valves per cylinder, 2 less cams than our V8 and the compression ratio of a 1984 Buick LeSabre.

    No real potential for power, worst sounding V12 made by anyone ever, unnecessarily expensive parts. Don’t know why anyone would own one except to say I own a V12 even if it’s one of the worst ones ever developed.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by killian665 View Post
    All the R129s made more power than the 8 series. Their normal non amg V8s made more power than BMWs V12, then the AMG 6,7 and 7.3 V12s absolutely destroyed them lol. 1995 SL73 makes 525 horsepower NA. That would be a direct competitor to an 850CSi or even a dinan twin turbo. You had to buy an 850 then take it somewhere else and spend half the purchase price of the car to make the power Mercedes was making in that era without forced induction. And even then you’d probably still get a bus length pulled on you lol.
    Might as well start throwing in Ferrari's and Lamborghini's for comparison. Lol! Mercedes are okay but don't have the same styling, they were barn doors and needed the extra horsepower that is for sure.

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