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Thread: Wideband, electric fan conversion and possibly a little n2o

  1. #1
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    Wideband, electric fan conversion and possibly a little n2o

    So as the title states I'm going to be making some additional modifications...
    Ordered
    2x AEM uego wideband kits $340
    1x Autometer E36 dual gauge a pillar pod $36
    1x used volvo fan and shroud assembly(80k miles) $60
    1x used volvo fan controller + pigtails
    1x Zex 50-75 dry kit with WOT switch and all necessary components $200 Craigslist unused
    1x Angry Ass fire extinguisher kit (shout-out guys! Can't wait)
    2x Delphi weatherpack connector sets 14 & 18 gauge (for any wiring needed I want it to be reliable and factory)
    Assloadx sxl wiring in different colors and gauges


    So these projects aren't completely related and though nitrous may never get installed but I'd like a little advice.

    Regarding the fan conversion...
    Has anyone ever linked their aux fan to come on with the high speed of the Volvo?
    Do most people convert to the E36 lower temp switches ? Will any E36 switch work?
    I was thinking of running a switch in addition to the coolant switch to potentially turn both electric fans on at once, any thoughts?
    What kind of relays are you all using when adding higher draw devices?

    Regarding the wideband...

    Is anyone here running with no narrowband sensors?

    Would I be better off leaving the existing narrowbands?

    Has anyone sent a lean signal to the narrowband in an effort to gain some more fuel delivery
    Do the wideband sensors need me to add relays for them?

    In regards to the nitrous oxide...

    Anyone actively running a low shot of nitrous or have any helpful advice?
    Will likely be rigging up some vdo washer pumps and a cold start injector to run a bit of washer solvent with n2o. Tests suggest a single pump capable of generating 40psi+ and at <$20 new it's hard to argue with...
    Last edited by Billyj; 02-21-2018 at 02:49 AM.

  2. #2
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    "1x Autometer E36 dual gauge a pillar pod $36"
    Aw, please, no.
    No personal experience with nitrous to advise but can tell you anecdotally, you can do more harm than good, and it can be addicting/$$$
    Tests suggest a washer pump capable of 40psi. That I want to see.

    If you can leave two black stripes from the exit of one corner to the braking zone of the next, you have enough horsepower. - Mark Donohue

  3. #3
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    Why no gauge pillar pods? I was able to get it faster than a behind the shifter and now I don't lose storage ...

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by ross1 View Post
    "1x Autometer E36 dual gauge a pillar pod $36"
    Aw, please, no.
    No personal experience with nitrous to advise but can tell you anecdotally, you can do more harm than good, and it can be addicting/$$$
    Tests suggest a washer pump capable of 40psi. That I want to see.
    http://forums.nicoclub.com/budget-wa...n-t471823.html

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyj View Post
    Why no gauge pillar pods? I was able to get it faster than a behind the shifter and now I don't lose storage ...

    - - - Updated - - -


    http://forums.nicoclub.com/budget-wa...n-t471823.html
    just my personal taste and it will likely obscure the otherwise good vision the e34 has. I won't make any boy racer or ricer jokes, ooops.

    If you can leave two black stripes from the exit of one corner to the braking zone of the next, you have enough horsepower. - Mark Donohue

  5. #5
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    I’ll be adding nitrous soon, but no insight yet on the use with a M60. I would recommend a wet shot so you don’t mess with your AFR. JimLev is a great resource when it comes to nitrous on these motors. Worth reaching out to him.
    Jason Grace

  6. #6
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    Im using a dry kit and doing a custom 3gph meth injection.
    Will post some picks when I get my stuff or maybe an unboxing video

  7. #7
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    Place holder to come back and respond when I get some time, I've got experience with most of what you're wanting to do.

    EDIT:

    Even though aftermarket wideband kits offer a narrowband output (0v-1v) they aren't as quick to switching as direct OE narrowbands and can cause some interesting side effects. Such as a hunting idle while in closed loop.

    There is a table in the Motronic to disable O2 sensor feedback, my experience with modifying this table makes the vehicle feel a bit lazy. Throttle transients aren't as snappy. My advice would be to keep OE narrowbands and install another bung for wideband sensor & gauge used for tuning, and only disable O2 sensor table in code while fuel tuning and re-enable for long term.

    I'm not experienced with the volvo fan, but if it's like most OE's it just uses a large resistor to low speed vs high speed on a single large fan. Your BMW should already have two fan relays for low speed and high speed and uses the temp sensor in the side of the radiator for switching. I see no need to modify that and would wire new fan directly into existing circuit. You can get different temp sensors for different temperatures if desired.

    I've used two smaller electric fans that fit in the radiator core and wires each BMW relay to one fan each for "low speed = one fan" "High speed & A/C on = both fans"

    The Bosch Motronic is an advanced fuel injection system for it's era and age. It can be tuned well for daily street use but isn't very forgiving and versatile for "growing" projects with power adders. I'd encourage a standalone EFI of your choice tuned for the application that will allow for growth. One example being the nitrous install, a standalone can be programmed to remove a couple of degrees of timing when nitrous is active and then run a normal advanced power timing table for normal driving. The motronic system will be tuned for a couple degrees less of timing all of the time in anticipation of you using your nitrous, will be rarely in comparison to average vehicle use.
    Last edited by Mykk; 02-21-2018 at 07:40 PM.

  8. #8
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    Thanks for your reply mykk, I'll probably be picking your brain.

    So I'm starting to realize people are completely right when they say planning in advance saves a lot of money...

    I picked up the dry kit today and feel misled, I didn't realize it until I started looking at the components but it's not complete.

    Missing 'fuel' jets , nitrous nozzle, nitrous jets, activation switch, 4an hose and a few other little pieces...
    I did my best to piece together the rest of the set but I'm wondering how much I saved in the end... Maybe 100-150 off a brand new one.. I thought I was saving like 300+.
    So essentially I payed 200 for a dry controller, new bottle and some mounting accessories...

    Now that I'm looking at the system I don't know how I would tap into the nitrous solenoid activation signal in order to power my methanol... Ughjfhhdh I got ahead of myself and it's going to cost me time, money and sanity.

    For the time being I'm going to focus on my fan conversion, then afterwards I will be doing the wideband install with narrowband remaining untouched.

    I'm probably going to run the dry kit with a small shot 50hp and see how the 'fuel controller' aka 'fool the FPR' system works...
    Based on my calculations from my turbo planning, the stock injectors are already running 80% duty cycle @ max hp
    I wonder how much extra pressure that old pump can handle

    I'm realizing I should have saved my money for an ecu, injector, map combo... That felt a little over my head/wallet before but now I'm regretting my nitrous distraction

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mykk View Post
    Place holder to come back and respond when I get some time, I've got experience with most of what you're wanting to do.

    EDIT:

    Even though aftermarket wideband kits offer a narrowband output (0v-1v) they aren't as quick to switching as direct OE narrowbands and can cause some interesting side effects. Such as a hunting idle while in closed loop.

    There is a table in the Motronic to disable O2 sensor feedback, my experience with modifying this table makes the vehicle feel a bit lazy. Throttle transients aren't as snappy. My advice would be to keep OE narrowbands and install another bung for wideband sensor & gauge used for tuning, and only disable O2 sensor table in code while fuel tuning and re-enable for long term.

    I'm not experienced with the volvo fan, but if it's like most OE's it just uses a large resistor to low speed vs high speed on a single large fan. Your BMW should already have two fan relays for low speed and high speed and uses the temp sensor in the side of the radiator for switching. I see no need to modify that and would wire new fan directly into existing circuit. You can get different temp sensors for different temperatures if desired.

    I've used two smaller electric fans that fit in the radiator core and wires each BMW relay to one fan each for "low speed = one fan" "High speed & A/C on = both fans"

    The Bosch Motronic is an advanced fuel injection system for it's era and age. It can be tuned well for daily street use but isn't very forgiving and versatile for "growing" projects with power adders. I'd encourage a standalone EFI of your choice tuned for the application that will allow for growth. One example being the nitrous install, a standalone can be programmed to remove a couple of degrees of timing when nitrous is active and then run a normal advanced power timing table for normal driving. The motronic system will be tuned for a couple degrees less of timing all of the time in anticipation of you using your nitrous, will be rarely in comparison to average vehicle use.
    I'm very aware of the benefits of a standalone, it was just significantly out of my budget, especially the tuning aspect which I would like to learn first hand...
    I'm hoping that the M60 can handle a small shot without pulling timing... But I may pay the price for that assumption

    I think the main benefit of the Volvo fan relays is that it doesn't cause that massive voltage drop that turning on 3000 cfm fan would cause ??

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyj View Post
    Missing 'fuel' jets , nitrous nozzle, nitrous jets, activation switch, 4an hose and a few other little pieces...
    I did my best to piece together the rest of the set but I'm wondering how much I saved in the end... Maybe 100-150 off a brand new one.. I thought I was saving like 300+.
    So essentially I payed 200 for a dry controller, new bottle and some mounting accessories...

    Now that I'm looking at the system I don't know how I would tap into the nitrous solenoid activation signal in order to power my methanol... Ughjfhhdh I got ahead of myself and it's going to cost me time, money and sanity.

    I'm thinking I could potentially get a high sensitivity relay that switches at the same voltage as the WOT voltage I'm guessing somewhere between 4.5-4.9v?
    Then use a high current switch like my arming switch to supply power. Then my methanol could be activated around the same time as my nitrous solenoid without any driver input. Any thoughts?

    Edit
    I found a suitable relay, but now my concern is that the nitrous controller and the meth relay would both be drawing they're signal from TPS.
    would that be too much current to run through a potentiometer? I think repeated use would shorten lifespan
    Last edited by Billyj; 02-22-2018 at 03:51 AM.

  11. #11
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    75a relays ought to handle your fans without issue. Bosch 0 332 002 150, they use them in cop cars for all the high draw lighting.
    They are pricey, I have a few second hand ones if interested
    Another solution might be an a/c compressor relay
    Last edited by ross1; 02-22-2018 at 11:39 AM.

    If you can leave two black stripes from the exit of one corner to the braking zone of the next, you have enough horsepower. - Mark Donohue

  12. #12
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    Well I have the Volvo fan controller that has built in relays, was going to wire that to the E36 fan switch which I believe is the the lower temp switch, I'll keep in mind that Bosch makes such high power relays.


    As of now I'm thinking I will initiate both the nitrous controller and the fuel relay using a momentary switch
    Last edited by Billyj; 02-24-2018 at 03:22 AM.

  13. #13
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    I did the volvo fan with e36 switch. The switch is particular to a specific 318, it should be labeled 88c on the brass. If it doesnt have this marking then its just like if you had used your stock one.

    For the wideband, add a bung and leave the narrowband. Unless you have the ability to tune and disable the O2s and have the tune still be so good it doesnt need to recalibrate for changes in atmospheric conditions or fuel.

    And for the nitrous, just do a wet kit. idk who decided washer fluid was an octane booster or fuel. It works like regular water injection in turbo cars,but the nitrous is already dropping intake temps drastically so the only thing youd get is ice forming on your intake, and maybe freezing your throtle so it stays open, and then chocking the throttle (this is the reason piston airplanes have "carburator heat" little reading here https://www.aopa.org/-/media/files/a...sb09.pdf?la=en )
    so just buy a wet kit and a wideband, then spend a good 3-6 months learning about nitrous before even opening the box. Otherwise much sadness shall occur. hell i have 2 nitrous kits sitting in the trunk of my car right now that i havent hooked up because i know my prep isnt there yet.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyj View Post
    Well I have the Volvo fan controller that has built in relays, was going to wire that to the E36 fan switch which I believe is the the lower temp switch, I'll keep in mind that Bosch makes such high power relays.


    As of now I'm thinking I will initiate both the nitrous controller and the fuel relay using a momentary switch
    Get one of these
    https://www.summitracing.com/parts/n...1001/overview/
    ive used them on 4 different cars ranging from 350z to a gt350. It allows to set up TPM activation and RPM window. Even lets you do two stages if doing very large shots.

    Or you can try this
    http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/products/psn1.php
    i dont have personal experience with it but this is likely my route in the future. Bottle pressure and AFR safeties seem worth the extra $150
    Last edited by Hofmeister; 02-25-2018 at 11:27 PM.

  15. #15
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    I already ordered two AEM wideband kits, wanted one for each bank, but I DID like the idea of wideband and bottle pressure cutoffs. The summit racing link didn't work should I just search for nitrous window activation switch?
    Last edited by Billyj; 03-01-2018 at 01:42 AM.

  16. #16
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    I do have a lot to learn, but I also have been reading for the last 8 years regarding engine tuning, nitrous, turbocharging etc etc. Time to play a bit. In any case the nitrous idea is taking a backseat.

    Doing the fan install tomorrow.

    Hopefully wideband Friday or Saturday. Would it be acceptable to power the wideband and gauges from the existing o2 relays while leaving the narrowbands functional?
    The sheet says each wideband draws 1.5amps

  17. #17
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    Okay so no chance to do the fan install today...
    I did read the ohenry014 diy and it's Missing pictures but gave me a good indication of how to mount it.

    But I did get a chance to compare the two shrouds

    My question for those who have done this is what did you have to trim?
    What strategy for mounting?

    The Volvo fan shroud is about twice as deep and maybe 2/3s as long.

    My biggest concern is the depth, seems like it's not such an easy fit..

    Any advice before I start cutting up the shrouds to make it work would be fantastic. I'll try to post pictures tomorrow
    Last edited by Billyj; 03-01-2018 at 08:54 PM.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyj View Post
    Okay so no chance to do the fan install today...
    I did read the ohenry014 diy and it's Missing pictures but gave me a good indication of how to mount it.

    But I did get a chance to compare the two shrouds

    My question for those who have done this is what did you have to trim?
    What strategy for mounting?

    The Volvo fan shroud is about twice as deep and maybe 2/3s as long.

    My biggest concern is the depth, seems like it's not such an easy fit..

    Any advice before I start cutting up the shrouds to make it work would be fantastic. I'll try to post pictures tomorrow
    i modified the fan to be shorter and mounted on stock shroud. That said im probably going to do something like a spal and two speed it with a resistor like the factory AC fan works. If the shroud moves much the blades can touch the rad and make a leak (ask me how i know)

  19. #19
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    To gain clearance I just mounted the volvo fan on the inside of the shroud.
    demet

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hofmeister View Post
    i modified the fan to be shorter and mounted on stock shroud. That said im probably going to do something like a spal and two speed it with a resistor like the factory AC fan works. If the shroud moves much the blades can touch the rad and make a leak (ask me how i know)
    Did you modify the blades to be shorter ?

  21. #21
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    This is what I did -

    https://flic.kr/p/Eec4Ti
    Jason Grace

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyj View Post
    Did you modify the blades to be shorter ?
    i disassembled the fan and mounted the motor on the back to give a couple more mms of clearance since it was scary close to my waterpump.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by UnrulyGrace View Post
    This is what I did -

    https://flic.kr/p/Eec4Ti
    My radiator is much longer than that

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Hofmeister View Post
    i disassembled the fan and mounted the motor on the back to give a couple more mms of clearance since it was scary close to my waterpump.
    I'll take a look at that tomorrow, should give some clearance

  24. #24
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    Okay so I attempted to install my Volvo fan and shroud today...
    I successfully removed my hydraulic fan and stock shroud.
    I then started to look at how to fit the volvo unit.
    Long story relatively short...
    Volvo motor and fan blade are broken, I do however have an e36 aux fan/shroud and wouldn't you guess? Same motor assembly...
    So I installed a the BMW aux motor/blades on the inside of the Volvo shroud, blades set to push air towards engine).
    Cut about half of the depth of the Volvo shroud off +motor/blades completely in between shroud and rad.

    Still not enough room to install with the waterpump in the way..

    I'm wondering if I got the wrong shroud assembly, there is no way to fit it... I'm probably going to order a spal fan.

    In the mean time I have a switch wired to the aux high speed relay, should give me enough time to order a new fan before it gets too hot out.

    Also ran some of my wiring for the wideband gauges...
    What's the best place to run the harness for the actual sensors?

    I already ran some wires through the main harness grommet by the pedal assembly, suuuuper tight fit getting 6x sxl18awg through there. No way to get the big plugs for the sensor harness through there!
    What's a good circuit/relay to use for the sensor power? Datasheet says each one has a 1.5 amp draw, can I tap into the o2 relays?

  25. #25
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    I know there was some interest and disinterest in how I would be mounting the 2x wideband gauges, I used an Autometer E36 a pillar mount. It was the incorrect fit need a wider fit, but I'll make a textured plastic filler plate to finish the top, make it look cleaner. Will post better pictures when it's all buttoned up.
    IMG_20180305_234331.jpg

    This is the 'painless solutions' 25 amp switch I wired to the aux high speed relay as a temporary fix to my fan mishap, I should get an Amber one at some point, as much as I really like the blue it doesn't fit with BMW design

    IMG_20180305_234343.jpg

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