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Thread: Speaker upgrade

  1. #26
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    From what I’m reading it’s actually not anymore powerful unless you lowered the impedence of the speakers to get more output. Some people who have done it claim they hear an improvement with otherwise stock components but after a little more research, unless you were able to find some 2 ohm speakers to go with the HK amp, it’s not worth it and doesn’t make much of a difference. And unfortunately none of the HK components from the E36 are drop in.
    Last edited by killian665; 03-18-2018 at 09:43 AM.

  2. #27
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    So you’re saying with the HK amp everything is just louder? I’m not really understanding.

  3. #28
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    tvjake2 is offline SoCalEights - CA BMW CCA Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by alex840 View Post
    For the kick panel and larger speaker in the rear box:
    Dayton Audio CF120-4 4-1/2" Woven Carbon Fiber Midwoofer 4 O
    For drop in replacement even the holes matchup for the mid size speaker in the rear box and front door (this is an exact drop in replacement) just a little more money than Daytons. I had a sound engineer friend of mine give both speakers a listen and he said no significant difference between the two:
    FaitalPRO 3FE22 3" Neodymium Professional Woofer 4 Ohm
    Or if you want to do the mod Dragon did for the mid size speaker in the rear and front door:
    Dayton Audio RS75-4 3" Reference Full-Range Driver 4 Ohm

    Now here is kicker: the front door tweet is 4 ohms while the rear box tweet is 8 ohms. I used this for drop in replacement for the front tweet:
    Dayton Audio ND20FB-4 Rear-Mount 3/4" Soft Dome Neodymium Tw

    In the last month or so dragon and I have gone through $1000+ in speakers trial and error for a drop in replacement for a stock system. This has been our findings. Put it to good use

    Still no solution for the rear tweet that is 8 ohms

    Good news on a side note, my 850ci 6 speed manual sunroof was repaired after playing a "puzzle game" with dragon and new headliner went in. The headliner was more work than anticipated for me.....definitely a two man job and my knee surgery recovery didn't help the situation.
    Nice. I looked at all the pricing. Reasonably priced upgrade project. I'm on it.

  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by tvjake2 View Post
    Nice. I looked at all the pricing. Reasonably priced upgrade project. I'm on it.
    I am gonna update this thread with the sub amp and a 10" sub I installed this afternoon as an optional add on if you want base.

    Sent from my SM-G892U using Tapatalk

  5. #30
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    Well i am a noob when it comes to sound systems. But i need new speakers in my 1991 850. My interior is in pieces so i figure i would add sound system upgrade to the mix.

    Im curious, I thought speaker size was the main thing, now im assuming for the E31 the speaker size is uncommon thats why you guys went through a lot of trail and error right?

    It looks like the E31 has some weird housings as well. Anyone ever try something like a direct swap with out the housings? Just curious. Me personally, will try to use the OEM housings.

    Can anyone also recommend a non-flashy head unit? I would like to match the whole theme of the car, and it looks like most of the head units Iv came across have chrome trim or have gloss black, which kinda stands out. Im willing to opt for a whole gloss black unit if there is not matte black options out there like the OEM radio.

  6. #31
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    Im just trying to get my head around this so I dont purchase the incorrect quantity of speakers haha, also Im thinking of doing what you guys are doing since sound systems are complete mystery to me. I also havent looked at the speakers in my 850, I have too many projects going on. Im sort of rushing things to get to point where I can piece the car together.

    I guess If i knew the speaker sizes Id need maybe i can find something on my own. I have a nice Dremel I just picked up not too long ago that I can finally use, and a 3D printer, so I can make some custom adapter plates (maybe, If i have the time and patience hahaha)

    For the kick panel and larger speaker in the rear box:

    Dayton Audio CF120-4 4-1/2" Woven Carbon Fiber Midwoofer 4 O - I tired looking for those and seem to be out of stock everywhere. Dayton website has em but they are about $60 per speaker. So just to be sure I would need 4 of these right?

    FaitalPRO 3FE22 3" Neodymium Professional Woofer 4 Ohm - I found these, they seem to go for about $32 a piece, Two of those?
    Dayton Audio RS75-4 3" Reference Full-Range Driver 4 Ohm - Found these as well, seem to range from $20 a piece to $34 a piece. These are another choice for the FaitalPROs right, just making sure Im not getting confused. Also two of these?

    Dayton Audio ND20FB-4 Rear-Mount 3/4" Soft Dome Neodymium Tw - And then 2 of these for the front? Im debating if I should leave my stock rear tweeters since they seem to be different from the fronts, at least as I understand it.

  7. #32
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    I bought the Faital Pro 3FE22s for my doors and rear boxes and they do in fact screw and plug right in

  8. #33
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    I’ve just done this upgrade for my fronts.

    For anyone considering undertaking this project in the UK/Europe, it’s a very worthwhile upgrade, very straightforward and at quite a reasonable cost (UK£150 for the fronts).

    I went for the Daytons (from SoundImports.com, based in The Netherlands) to replace the woofers and tweeters, and the Faitals (sourced from eBay) on the mids.

    The woofers need to have their mounting holes redrilled, and one of the connectors on the tweeter wiring harness needs to be replaced with a larger one to accommodate the terminal, but that really is it.

    Now all that remains is to replace the rears, which should in theory be straightforward as all 3 speakers are enclosed in one enclosure. However, I’m concerned about replacing the original Nokia 8ohm tweeter with the Dayton 4ohm. What impact will this have? Should I wait until a more suitable replacement tweeter is found?

    At some stage I may also upgrade the amp. From reading the wiring diagrams, it seems the factory amp has a built in 3 way crossover for each front channel. For the rears, it has a 2 way crossover for each channel, the low side feeds the woofer, and high side is then split by means of caps and resistors within the speaker enclosure to filter out the relevant frequencies to the mid and tweeter.

    Obviously a straight drop-in upgrade for this amp will be virtually impossible to find, so I’m assuming the only alternative is a 4 channel amp with separate passive 2 and 3 way crossovers. And then of course, there’s the unpalatable issue of cutting into factory wiring. I’d like to use corresponding male connectors to make an adapter harness, but unless someone can point me in the direction of a source for these I may have to butcher a used/broken amp from eBay for its sockets!


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

  9. #34
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    More importantly is how well does it sound? Dayton has also a great Subs to go along with anything

  10. #35
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    Found some information about the old Nokia 4½" woofer. According to the data of the LPT-114 the woofer would perform poorly in a box of 3.2 liters which is the volume of the box in the rear. But one shall remember that they were always driven by the amplifier placed in the rear. I have not found any data about what it does more than that it provides power (20W). The amplifier drives the 4 woofers and the 4 mid range loudspeakers and also the 4 tweeters. It also has an electronic cross over circuit.

    I measured the box volume to be 3.2 liter for the woofer and 1.0 for the mid-range loudspeaker. The woofer has an equivalent volume (Vas) of some 9,9 liter and a total Q of 0,5. This indicates to me that the box had to have a volume of about 15-16 Liters to produce any useful signal in the range around 50 Hz. Since the volume is only 3.2 liters the woofer starts to fall off at 100-110 Hz when connected to a common car stereo. Also the tweeter is not connected, it is driven separately from the oem amplifier so some cross-over filter for it has to be made.

    NOKIA-LPT-114.jpg

  11. #36
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    I’ve just received the final six speakers for the rear to complete this conversion.

    I’m happy to report that the OEM tweeters in the rear boxes on my UK spec 840Ci are indeed 4ohm, not 8ohm as has been mentioned earlier in the thread. This means everything was a like-for-like swap:



    Incidentally, the DaytonAudio tweeter was not quite a plug and play fit. I prised the OEM tweeter out of its housing (its only clipped in) to replace it with the new DA tweeter. However, it comes with a flange on the back of the casing for mounting holes. I found I had to dremel this off so that the DA tweeter can clear the aperture in the enclosure when it’s glued into the housing. I cut most of the flange away like this:



    I just put a spot of super glue on each of the four clips inside the housing, pressed the new tweeter in and let it cure, same as the fronts. Also, there’s limited space behind the tweeter for the connectors, which now stick out further because the new tweeter is set further back. I found I had to gently bend the connectors on the wiring loom (the smaller of which I had to replace with a bigger female spade connector as with the fronts, see earlier in the thread) to 90degrees before I could fully seat the tweeters in the enclosures.

    Haven’t tested them yet, so fingers crossed.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

  12. #37
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    Ok so I tested the rebuilt speaker enclosures on the bench with a small 12v amp. They sound fantastic.

    Unfortunately when I bolted them into the car I was a bit disappointed. The right channel sounds fine but the left was lacking somewhat. Took them out again and retested on the bench, nothing wrong with either of them. Tested continuity in the wires between the terminals in the amp and the terminals at the enclosures, nothing wrong there.

    I’m starting to think I might have a couple of fried components in the 25yr old amp.

  13. #38
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    Had a couple of weeks to listen to these now and I’ve got to say, they are a MASSIVE improvement from stock. Even with the question over the amp, it sounds almost as good as the non-LOGIC7 system in my E65. I do have a Kenwood sub driven by the head unit as well and I’ve actually had to turn this down cos the output from the new components is so good.

    Can’t recommend this upgrade highly enough, big thanks to the OP for taking the time to test all those speakers!

  14. #39
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    So this weekend I installed the 2 Dayton Audio CF120-4 4-1/2" Woven Carbon Fiber Midwoofer 4 in the front foot well speaker boxes. I got to do the rest of the speakers now.

    So I bought 4x Dayton Audio CF120-4 4-1/2" Woven Carbon Fiber Midwoofer 4 (for the front boxes and 2 for the rear boxes).

    Someone told me that I would need 4 of FaitalPRO 3FE22 3" Neodymium Professional Woofer 4 Ohm not sure if maybe there was miscommunication but I think I only should have gotten 2 not 4. Unless there are 2 extra hidden speakers somewhere lol. The 2 of these would go in the rear speaker boxes. The other 2 ?????

    I also found out that I have the 8 OHM rear tweeters. It sounds like we dont have a replacement for those yet. Daytons website has some 8 OHM tweeters but the sizes are too small. I think the overall diameter of the speaker itself is around 1 1/2" to 1 11/16", the ones they have are either 1" or 1 1/8" Ill see what I can dig up.

    I gotta check my front door tweeters and see if they are 4 OHM. I think its a safe bet that they are, but just to make sure Im going to check. If i understood it correctly, I would only need 2 of Dayton Audio ND20FB-4 Rear-Mount 3/4" Soft Dome Neodymium Tw for the front.

    I figured I would change out all the tweeters anyway because they distort under high volume. When i tested the new front daytons this weekend, I heard distortion and it was coming out of the front door tweeters. Same thing with the rears, although it was harder to tell because the speakers that I will be replacing with the FatalPros were literary turning into dust. The cones were already in bad shape.

  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kamiler View Post
    So this weekend I installed the 2 Dayton Audio CF120-4 4-1/2" Woven Carbon Fiber Midwoofer 4 in the front foot well speaker boxes. I got to do the rest of the speakers now.

    So I bought 4x Dayton Audio CF120-4 4-1/2" Woven Carbon Fiber Midwoofer 4 (for the front boxes and 2 for the rear boxes).

    Someone told me that I would need 4 of FaitalPRO 3FE22 3" Neodymium Professional Woofer 4 Ohm not sure if maybe there was miscommunication but I think I only should have gotten 2 not 4. Unless there are 2 extra hidden speakers somewhere lol. The 2 of these would go in the rear speaker boxes. The other 2 ?????

    I also found out that I have the 8 OHM rear tweeters. It sounds like we dont have a replacement for those yet. Daytons website has some 8 OHM tweeters but the sizes are too small. I think the overall diameter of the speaker itself is around 1 1/2" to 1 11/16", the ones they have are either 1" or 1 1/8" Ill see what I can dig up.

    I gotta check my front door tweeters and see if they are 4 OHM. I think its a safe bet that they are, but just to make sure Im going to check. If i understood it correctly, I would only need 2 of Dayton Audio ND20FB-4 Rear-Mount 3/4" Soft Dome Neodymium Tw for the front.

    I figured I would change out all the tweeters anyway because they distort under high volume. When i tested the new front daytons this weekend, I heard distortion and it was coming out of the front door tweeters. Same thing with the rears, although it was harder to tell because the speakers that I will be replacing with the FatalPros were literary turning into dust. The cones were already in bad shape.

    Well forgot that there are 2 more 4 OHM speakers in the car in the door. Lol. So i guess I ordered the correct amount. Those were completely wrecked. Hoping to put everything together tomorrow and see if the distortion went away. I really do not want to replace my tweeters. As it seems like those are difficult to find.

    Also the 2 mid size speakers in the rear boxes were also in really bad shape. Once I get a chance Ill post photos. Iv never seen speakers in such a condition.

  16. #41
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    The Faital Pros are incredible. I put a complete set of new OEM speakers in the rear, a pair of Faital Pros in the doors, a pair of some aftermarket 5.25s inch the kick panels and a 10" sub with a separate amp. If you want any kind of bass response you need a sub and amp. But the Faital pros will kick some royal ass on the high end and they just drop right in.

  17. #42
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    I am planning to do the same upgrade on my 840Ci. The posts above have been incredibly helpful, but I feel like I am missing important information. The rear speaker enclosures have built in crossovers. Are there and where crossovers for the front speakers? Are tweeters in the doors as easy to replace as the ones in the back? What is a better fit, 3/4" or 1"? Dayton tweeters have 94db sensitivity while the woofers from Dayton and Faital are 89db. I am concern that this mismatch would make the sound too bright. Some people used different brand 89db tweeters from Pioneer and others. I would love to hear what different solutions have been used. Has anyone had a chance to compare FaitalPRO 3FE22 3" Neodymium Professional Woofer 4 Ohm toDayton Audio RS75-4 3" Reference Full-Range Driver 4 Ohm? Are there any preferences?
    Has anyone installed a sub in the center of the rear deck lid? What worked? Any reasons not to go that rout? I currently have a 6" Bazooka in the trunk, but the base sound too dull.

    Thanks in advance or any information.
    Last edited by sailor1; 12-23-2018 at 04:07 AM.

  18. #43
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    I noticed today that one of my footwell speakers was dead (original and found to be open circuit) so just ordered a pair of Dayton Audio CF120-4 4-1/2" from Parts Express ... $69 incl tax and shipping. I replaced all the mids with 3FE22's some time ago.

  19. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by sailor1
    Are there and where crossovers for the front speakers?
    In the stock amp. It has 4ch input and 10ch output:
    front woofers
    front mids
    front tweeters
    rear woofers
    rear mids+tweeters

    Quote Originally Posted by sailor1
    Are tweeters in the doors as easy to replace as the ones in the back?
    No. They are different.
    high1.jpg
    WBR, Tony

  20. #45
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    Thanks Tony,
    Do you know the actual size of the front tweeters and what aftermarket ones make a good replacement? Since the rear mid+twitter are on the same channel am I correct in assuming that the crossovers in the rear enclosures are for them? I am asking because my 840 came with an aftermarket 5ch amp, adopters for the speaker wires, but no crossovers. I need to figure out the crossover setup when I change the speakers.

  21. #46
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    Tweetet Enclosure Diameter

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan840ci View Post
    I’ve just received the final six speakers for the rear to complete this conversion.

    I’m happy to report that the OEM tweeters in the rear boxes on my UK spec 840Ci are indeed 4ohm, not 8ohm as has been mentioned earlier in the thread. This means everything was a like-for-like swap:



    Incidentally, the DaytonAudio tweeter was not quite a plug and play fit. I prised the OEM tweeter out of its housing (its only clipped in) to replace it with the new DA tweeter. However, it comes with a flange on the back of the casing for mounting holes. I found I had to dremel this off so that the DA tweeter can clear the aperture in the enclosure when it’s glued into the housing. I cut most of the flange away like this:



    I just put a spot of super glue on each of the four clips inside the housing, pressed the new tweeter in and let it cure, same as the fronts. Also, there’s limited space behind the tweeter for the connectors, which now stick out further because the new tweeter is set further back. I found I had to gently bend the connectors on the wiring loom (the smaller of which I had to replace with a bigger female spade connector as with the fronts, see earlier in the thread) to 90degrees before I could fully seat the tweeters in the enclosures.

    Haven’t tested them yet, so fingers crossed.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

    Can you tell me diameter of the opening of tweeter housing? Will Dayton's 1" tweeter like
    AN25F-4 fit?

  22. #47
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    All my speakers are installed, I have some distortion at higher volume coming from the tweeters. Im pretty sure those are gone too. I got a 1991 850.
    So I got 8 ohm tweeters. Any good replacements on there?

    Also thinking about upgrading the head unit to a VDO TR7412UB and the AMP. Issue is I dont know what amp to get. Id like it to be a plug N play deal. Is there a OEM replacement amp I could get from a different BMW that would fit my E31?

  23. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by killian665 View Post
    Apparently the E36 Harmon Kardon amplifier bolts right in to the factory location and plugs right in just as easily. After comparing the stock unit with the E36 one this turns out to be true. I was reading they’re capable of driving 2 ohm speakers as well. Do you think this would be a worth while upgrade? I don’t know much about sound systems.
    I installed the complete E36 Top HIFI system in my 8.

    The advantage of using the HK E36 10-channel amp (65 12 8 366 472) and 2 ohm speakers is that will double the woofer power over the OE E31 amp with 4 ohm woofer.
    I used the HK 2 ohm speakers (65 13 8 366 459) in the front kick panel enclosures and in the 2 ohm (65 13 8 399 656) rear enclosure.
    The front and rear enclosure were reworked to install a new ABS baffle mount for the larger HK speakers. Turns out OE tune ports are a good match for the HK speakers so do not interfere, change the port opening size or length.

    The E36 system amplifier can also uses a sound switch (61 31 8 363 638) for DSP sound expansion (refer to the 1999 E36-M3 ETM). The sound switch will require a custom 3-conductor wiring harness from the amp to the sound switch location in the dash.

    I also upgraded my 8 audio system with the BMW CD-43 (Blaupunkt) Radio and an E-38 Pioneer, I-BUS 6-CD Changer (65 12 6 907 035) which is far superior in sound quality and this model Pioneer 6-CD Changer has a much better CD-changer internal mechanism and suspension so there are no more CD skips with sport suspension. In order to use this CD Changer the data cable needs to be replaced, a new power cable is required and an I-BUS wire needs to be run from the CD-43 head unit to the CD-Changer.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by m6bigdog; 04-07-2019 at 02:58 AM.

  24. #49
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    Well it looks like I will need to upgrade/replace my stock amp. I am thinking about the E36 M3 amp to work with my speakers. But at the end of the day I am looking for a plug n play solution.

    I also need to replace those stupid 8 OHM tweeters since they seem to be bad and cause "distortion" at slightly higher volume. Did anyone find any replacements for those yet?

    I went through hell and back with my 850 in the last year, and I just got done doing the valve seals (thanks to my dad for helping). Figured I would treat the car to some slight upgrades interior wise.

  25. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by killian665 View Post
    Apparently the E36 Harmon Kardon amplifier bolts right in to the factory location and plugs right in just as easily. After comparing the stock unit with the E36 one this turns out to be true. I was reading they’re capable of driving 2 ohm speakers as well. Do you think this would be a worth while upgrade? I don’t know much about sound systems.
    I did the E-36 Top HiFi upgrade on my 8 in 2013. I assume a forum search would expose more info.

    The only way to get the extra power from the E36 Top HiFi amp is by using 2-Ohm speakers as the amp circuity is similar to the stock amp (12V supply with bridged amp output design) but the output stage is designed to drive more current for the 2-Ohm speakers.
    However, the Top HiFi amp still has the advantage of the DSP, so it is a good upgrade if you want the Digital Signal Processing switch or jumper the amp to engage the DSP circuit.
    IMHO, the E31 tweeter and mid range speakers are adequate for a quality sound if they are in good condition.

    E-36 Parts:
    65 13 8 366 459, E-36 - HK - Woofer TOP-HIFI-System 5-1/4 dual voice coil, 2&6-ohm voice coils.
    65 13 8 399 656, E36, Z3 - Woofer TOP-HIFI-System 5-1/4 single 2- ohm voice coil
    65 13 8 366 472, E-36 - Harman Kardon - TOP-HIFI-System - 320 Watt Amplifier
    61 31 8 363 638, E-36 - DSP control for amp - Sound Switch
    E-38 Part:
    65 12 6 907 035, E-38 - Pioneer 6-CD Changer - I-Bus (same from factor as the OE CD-Changer but never skips with sport suspension)

    The DSP 3-conductor cable needs to be custom made and if you want to use the E-38, CD-Changer you will need to install a new data cable and install an I-Bus wire from the CD-43 to the CD-Changer.
    If someone wants more info on parts for making the cabling, just ask.

    Attached images shows the modified E31 enclosures to fit the HK speakers. I did port tuning tests on the enclosures with HK speakers installed and the original ports work well with the HK speakers so don't want to modify the port openings.
    Front enclosure, I added a new baffle board with spacer to close in the space behind the baffle where the original speaker was mounted.
    Rear enclosure, I removed the baffle board and milled off the obstruction on the backside and installed a thick piece of ABS behind it to mount the HK speaker then resealed the baffle to the enclosure.
    Attached Images Attached Images

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