Drift related suspension terms explanations

[Piner]

So I have started doing video series on youtube about drifting related terms and concepts. Im starting out with bare bones basic ideas and concepts for beginners to understand what these terms mean and how they generally affect their car.











I will be adding more as I make them

[RandomHero27]

good shit. will check out later

[protomor]

All I see is a beard.

Edit: please stop tapping on the white board.

Love youu paaaul.

[Piner]

What do you mean a beard? Where? I thought that was just my face

[RandomHero27]

The slr parts video was good. Itd be cool to see those parts installed and how to adjust on a car. Especially the offset camber plates.

[Piner]

The slr parts video was good. Itd be cool to see those parts installed and how to adjust on a car. Especially the offset camber plates.

Yes, that will be coming soon. I am planning on putting a set on the e36 in the shop and showing how much more adjustment the offset plates allow over the ground controls that are on the car right now. Im super stoked to get the first sets of the E90 kit. The knuckle is a work of art.

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[Novablue454]

Sweet! So do you recommend using the "lowest available" ackerman setting in the kit or the "drift" setting right before it? I've driven 2 seasons on the "drift" setting and never played with it.

[Piner]

I think it depends on the track but I have found myself favoring the two middle settings more. I have the older version of the kit on my car that used shims to adjust ackerman and had 5 positions. The one I use is dead in the middle of the block which isn't actually an option any more. If I were using the current adjuster (which despite one less position is much easier and doesn't require you to bring other shims to the track) I would say one step in from full drift.

I encourage those with the SLR kit to play with the ackerman settings though. If its a drift kit we set it all the way out by default (Which still has a little bit of ackerman) and most people use that setting. If its a race kit we set it all the way in since they aren't really looking for less ackerman. It really is a personal preference for your driving style and car setup. A car with less side bite is most likely going to feel better with less ackerman due to less front scrub braking effect (I am not sure if there is an actual term for this) a car with more side-bite could feel better with more ackerman due to more balanced rotation and a more rearward pivot point and ackerman's positive effect on self steer and feel.

[RandomHero27]

Keep these coming. Especially close ups of products id like to see the mini kit if you can. And maybe a bit more of the products installed.

[protomor]

Just remember to do toe adjustments after the ackerman changes.

[RandomHero27]

can you please explain bump steer?

[protomor]

camber curves but tie rods and control arms do it at a different rate so your toe changes through the compression range.

[Piner]

I can do a bump steer video, Its pretty simple though. Just like what Yoshi Said. When the tie-rod and control arm pivots swing in different radius arc's you get toe change.

I updated with a video about Motion ratio. I know all of Ya'll know what it is but I figure im going for all the low hanging fruit first to get them out of the way so later when I get into more complicated stuff I can link back to these as references.

[Novablue454]

I love these videos, I hope you don't mind using this thread as a sort of discussion area for them.

I am watching this one



And it sounds like I am guilty of doing this wrong. I run 245/40r17 Hankook RS4 on the front of my E46, and 245/45r17 Ecsta ASX on the rear. Rather than trying to dial out grip in the front, I want to dial more grip in to the rear. Any advice on that?

[Piner]

There are many ways to dial grip in at the rear, easiest and quickest is tire pressure since that can be adjusted quickly at the track. Dropping tire pressure can yield large increases in forward bite due to the larger contact patch the trade off is in less sidewall stiffness and a drop in predictability is some cases especially at very low pressures.

The next item would be a better compound tire since everything suspension wise can only optimize for the maximum grip that tire can give you. The stickier the compound the the higher the maximum grip possible after all the tweaks. Also certain tires respond better than others simply due to construction and compound quirks such as how quickly they heat up, when the tire starts to fall off grip and sidewall stiffness. For example the Hankook RS3 was one of the best tires in competition on the first pass but on longer courses it would fall off and get very greasy on the second pass due to compound overheat. So a more conservative alignment and setup is beneficial to try to get a bit more life out of them before they get to that point.

After those which are the two biggest things it optimizing your suspension geometry which can be complex process because it does depend highly on what your power level/ dampers/ differential setup and driving style.

Lots of conflicting information but the best approach is to think about the tires contact patch when under full throttle conditions and fully off throttle since those are the two conditions where Maximum grip is most essential. Full throttle is a forward bite type situation and Off throttle is a side bite situation. Again some of this depends on the tire you are using as well since all tires have their pros and cons. I've heard the Achilles 123s has massive forward bite but limited side bite which if you watch the driving styles of those using those tires it seems to confirm that. Very tentative throttle application until the point to rocket the car towards and past the apex of the turn.

Well I have to get back to work I'll write more later.

[Novablue454]

There are many ways to dial grip in at the rear, easiest and quickest is tire pressure since that can be adjusted quickly at the track. Dropping tire pressure can yield large increases in forward bite due to the larger contact patch the trade off is in less sidewall stiffness and a drop in predictability is some cases especially at very low pressures.

The next item would be a better compound tire since everything suspension wise can only optimize for the maximum grip that tire can give you. The stickier the compound the the higher the maximum grip possible after all the tweaks. Also certain tires respond better than others simply due to construction and compound quirks such as how quickly they heat up, when the tire starts to fall off grip and sidewall stiffness. For example the Hankook RS3 was one of the best tires in competition on the first pass but on longer courses it would fall off and get very greasy on the second pass due to compound overheat. So a more conservative alignment and setup is beneficial to try to get a bit more life out of them before they get to that point.

After those which are the two biggest things it optimizing your suspension geometry which can be complex process because it does depend highly on what your power level/ dampers/ differential setup and driving style.

Lots of conflicting information but the best approach is to think about the tires contact patch when under full throttle conditions and fully off throttle since those are the two conditions where Maximum grip is most essential. Full throttle is a forward bite type situation and Off throttle is a side bite situation. Again some of this depends on the tire you are using as well since all tires have their pros and cons. I've heard the Achilles 123s has massive forward bite but limited side bite which if you watch the driving styles of those using those tires it seems to confirm that. Very tentative throttle application until the point to rocket the car towards and past the apex of the turn.

Well I have to get back to work I'll write more later.

I appreciate it! You guys should offer a suspension setup consultation over there, I'd gladly paypal you some beer money for advice. I'm sick of chasing the feeling my cars on ice.

[Piner]

Honestly just from what I know about the Ecsta ASX which is anecdotal from friends that have used them, they said they have little to no forward or side bite. One of my friends said he could spin Im not sure why you are using that tire other than it maybe being very cheap due to a local hookup you have. I'd try a federal 595, Achilles ATR Sport 2 or similar on the rear in the same size. I would be surprised if you didn't pick up a load more grip just from changing brands.

[Novablue454]

Honestly just from what I know about the Ecsta ASX which is anecdotal from friends that have used them, they said they have little to no forward or side bite. One of my friends said he could spin Im not sure why you are using that tire other than it maybe being very cheap due to a local hookup you have. I'd try a federal 595, Achilles ATR Sport 2 or similar on the rear in the same size. I would be surprised if you didn't pick up a load more grip just from changing brands.

I'm using them because Levi (jeepster on here) has gotten on the podium in multiple pro ams with them on his E36, and we have almost identical setups and power levels (he has more torque). He's been using them exclusively for multiple years now without issue. I was on the Zestino program a while back and while the car did feel quite a bit better, it still seemed to be lacking in rear grip.

[protomor]

I'll try to dissuade anyone from feddies. They changed their compound and delaminate like a mofo now. I went through a few sets 10x faster than the old version.

[RandomHero27]

Lone Star guys run Kendas. Aaron Losey is pretty adamant about laps per dollar that they cover. Ive never "used" them, but Chelsea threw on a set of 215/40s Kenda Kr20s on my car when he shot the how to buy a drift car vid. He did a bunch of laps, found out they didnt get audio, did a bunch more laps, then i got to run a bunch of laps. then i drove home on them and they still have lots of laps left in them. They also are pretty grippy, i usually run the take offs i buy at 20-30lbs, these were mounted at 40psi and they felt like my take offs at 20psi.

[Piner]

Yeah Kenda KR20's are a great option. I ran those on my Cefiro while at Ebisu and yeah they last and last. Good grip too for the money.

Nova Blue, what spring rate, tire pressure and alignment settings in the rear?

I've run 215 falken ziex 512's with 60psi on the back and kept pace with S-chassis running 275's. Im not sure how you make an e36/e46 slow haha. I had all the grip dialed out because at the time I only had a stock m50nv. Maybe 155whp all in.

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[Novablue454]

I run the 265/35r18 KR20s on my RX7 and love them. Tried the 245/40r17 on the BMW and they were among the worst tires I've tried. Weird.

Im LS6/t56, 328i with a welded 210mm M3 rear, Fortune Auto 8k front 7k rear (swift). SLR Ultra kit. Ride height is 6" from rear jack pad holes, so not low. I don't remember my exact specs from the last one (the sheet is at my shop) but IIRC I told them Front -5* camber, Max Caster (slr lollis), 1/4" total toe out. Rear 0* camber, 1/2" total toe in. Other maybe relevant facts, car is 28XX without me in it, Garagastic offset RTABs, Whiteline front bar, no rear bar, and 245/40r17 all around on 17x8 et20 wheels + 30mm spacers. I've tried everything from 30psi down to debeading on a run at 10psi. usually stick around 22-26

[Piner]

Hmm honestly your car should be a rocketship with those settings. If anything only thing I can think to blame would be your rear tires. I'd try stepping up to a wider rear tire that is also a stickier compound. ASX's are a pretty outdated tire since I think those were first introduced 10 years ago and I thought they were discontinued until I checked today after you said you used them.

I'd try running a Federal RSR on the rear since I think they are about the same price per size as the ASX and are much stickier.

[Novablue454]

Hmm honestly your car should be a rocketship with those settings. If anything only thing I can think to blame would be your rear tires. I'd try stepping up to a wider rear tire that is also a stickier compound. ASX's are a pretty outdated tire since I think those were first introduced 10 years ago and I thought they were discontinued until I checked today after you said you used them.

I'd try running a Federal RSR on the rear since I think they are about the same price per size as the ASX and are much stickier.

Yeah, they did discontinue them for a while but brought them back, and Jeepster and I worked a deal with discount to get them for like $40 a tire on promotion. I bought like 30 of the damn things lol. That's my next plan is to order some 5x114 adapters and try out the 18x10.5 wheels with a 265/35 Kenda from my RX7 on the back.

[Press22]

Hate to turn this into the ask Paul questions thread but...
So I got the SLR Super Kit for the e36, what wheel size/offset/tire combo will clear? (kinda wishing i went for the ultra)

Currently running 17x9 et21 235/40 and banging that frame rail like a hot girlfriend
was really hoping I'd be able to fit the wheels inside felony form but guess it'll be the "FD stance"