Vibration persist after replacing engine and transmission mounts

[951Dreams]

If this was one of my 944's I suspect the DME itself. Ours are 15 years older and the solder joints are all failing after 30 years of heat cycling. However, I don't think it's much of an issue on these yet.

If it was me, I'd get a pressure gauge on the fuel rail. These pumps may not prime if there is already pressure. IDK, but either way I'd verify with a gauge. If you have pressure then it's your injectors not firing, if you don't have pressure, then it's the fuel pump. That would be a good step to verify where your problems are really at.

I've had a few pumps I could never "hear", but test proved they were pumping.

[racer2086]

Too coincidental that this happened after the 2nd time you went in to the timing chains. Did you time the engine properly? Even if you line up the timing mark for the crank to the lower cover, you can be 180 degrees out. I'm not exactly sure if you would have valve interference if that happened, but if you didn't and you timed it to that, it may cause no compression. Did you happen to check compression? Or verify TDC?

[georgebest]

Assumption is good fuel level? Had to say it, been there before, lol.

Have you tried fuel misting the intake and cranking, since you have spark? If it lights off, then the possible
loss of initiation is the DME on the DME relay and fuel pump relay circuit, both triggered after unloader relay/ignition/crank signal.

Since you tried firing it off with the pump relay wired, the DME should have cycled the injectors. Provided all fuses are good,
I suspect a DME fault, OR....loss of 12v feed to injectors while cranking, possibly from moving the harness during repair.
Time for some in depth checking of circuitry. You'll win the bet, for sure.

Fuel level is good (totally valid question, lol), pump is in fuel, I opened it up just to make sure.
I'm almost sure moving the wiring harness caused this somehow, cause you need to stretch it a bit to have access to bank 1. Your idea about loss of feed to injectors makes perfect sense...but why the pump is not priming and fuel pump relay not clicking before starting to crank? We might have two issues, maybe both caused by moving the harness around. Btw: I checked the wiring to the DME on the DME side, deoxit all and reconnected it. I also have a new ignition switch on the way, as a hail mary attempt.
Probably losing bet if DME at fault, takes a while to get a new one and have it reprogrammed, so I hope it's something simpler

- - - Updated - - -

Too coincidental that this happened after the 2nd time you went in to the timing chains. Did you time the engine properly? Even if you line up the timing mark for the crank to the lower cover, you can be 180 degrees out. I'm not exactly sure if you would have valve interference if that happened, but if you didn't and you timed it to that, it may cause no compression. Did you happen to check compression? Or verify TDC?

Engine was in TDC all along with pin connected at flywheel, that's probably not the issue here, but thanks! Any idea could help.

[georgebest]

If this was one of my 944's I suspect the DME itself. Ours are 15 years older and the solder joints are all failing after 30 years of heat cycling. However, I don't think it's much of an issue on these yet.

If it was me, I'd get a pressure gauge on the fuel rail. These pumps may not prime if there is already pressure. IDK, but either way I'd verify with a gauge. If you have pressure then it's your injectors not firing, if you don't have pressure, then it's the fuel pump. That would be a good step to verify where your problems are really at.

I've had a few pumps I could never "hear", but test proved they were pumping.

I could always hear this pump and I can switch it on manually and clearly hearing it. I think it always primes for a second at least. As far as I know the fuel regulator is not sending any signal about pressure, thus DME has no idea if pressure was built up.

[racer2086]

How about the pickups for the cam sensors on the cam sprockets. Are they on there correctly?

[clarkitect]

How about the pickups for the cam sensors on the cam sprockets. Are they on there correctly?

I think he figured it out on Facebook. Hopefully videos of this bad boy running any time now....

[oldroller]

Tenacity...it's a wonderful tool!

[georgebest]

Sorry guys, yes I was talking to Ed on Facebook. Credit goes to racer2086, he and Ed suggested the same that I was 180 degree off. So I opened it up and to my surprise it was really off.
Manually turned the camshafts with flywheel pin on and now they are all at the proper position. Not sure if that was the proper way to do it, but I didnt need to use excessive force so probably ok.
I had no idea that you can be in TDC and still have it 180 degree off. I got lucky when doing it first time.
Hope nothing was destoryed when I was cranking it while it was off.
So finally some progress at least, and I'm a proud owner of some unnecessary new relays and a new crankshaft position sensor I will keep them, would have changed them anyway at some point.

[Timm]

You won't have damaged anything with a 180 degree error - it would just have been sparking on the exhaust stroke!

[georgebest]

IT"S RUNNING AGAIN!
First start after retiming:
https://photos.app.*******/VXoKQ11GWQYiFIhH2

I need to test it more over the weekend, see if any errors, but at least I have again a working engine

Thank you for all of you guys for the great help!

(it seems the video link is blocked, not yet sure why)

[cyclops2]

IT"S RUNNING AGAIN!
First start after retiming:
https://photos.app.*******/VXoKQ11GWQYiFIhH2

I need to test it more over the weekend, see if any errors, but at least I have again a working engine

Thank you for all of you guys for the great help!

(it seems the video link is blocked, not yet sure why)

Congrats! well done. great BMW team effort guys. Wish I knew more to have contributed. But anyway well done.

george you are patient and persistent. a cool cat. good work.

[georgebest]

Congrats! well done. great BMW team effort guys. Wish I knew more to have contributed. But anyway well done.

george you are patient and persistent. a cool cat. good work.

Yes, this was clearly team effort, I'm really grateful!
When this all done, I really want to learn how can you be 180 degree off when turning a working engine into TDC and move the camshafts around max a few degrees. Still not understanding it

[georgebest]

Run it for an hour in the garage and the first time since I have this car (8 months), no engine error code and no SES light!
Noticed a few smaller issues that still needs to be fixed, but otherwise looking good. Time to put in a few miles and see if anything comes up.

[georgebest]

I was celebrating too early!
After driving it for a few miles I got the "22 function inlet camshaft control bank 2" message with SES ligth.
The irony is that I decided to do the timing for the second time cause I had the same message earlier on bank 1. Let's focus on the fact that I dont have it on bank 1 anymore
Otherwise car runs great, INPA shows normal values, probably TIMM would say that the 4.06ms injection time is too much though.
I need to recheck the timing wheel, I can do it thru the inspection hole. Also swapping around VANOS solenoids and see if problem follows.
At least I can use the car in the meantime, quite major plus.
INPA values below, maybe some of you will have better ideas.

Btw: ECS has super "cheap" the genuine VANOS Solenoids for $150. This is the lowest price I have ever seen.

[Timm]

They are perfect numbers really - look at those roughness values, just goes to show that the Vanos system smoothed out the idle - my roughness values are at least twice that.

Timing a little out by the look of it, but probably not by much. Most important when timing, never turn the engine backwards!

[georgebest]

They are perfect numbers really - look at those roughness values, just goes to show that the Vanos system smoothed out the idle - my roughness values are at least twice that.

Timing a little out by the look of it, but probably not by much. Most important when timing, never turn the engine backwards!

Thanks Timm, I will figure out what is causing the error. Should be either the solenoid or the timing wheel.

[georgebest]

Mystery not solved yet!
Replaced Vanos solenoid, drive the car around a bit and got again the "22 function inlet camshaft control bank 2" message with SES light.
Read a lot about it and the other cause could be the timing wheel. Put engine into TDC, and removed valve cover. Everything is perfectly aligned, cam shaft holder slid on and allen key goes thru timing wheel beautifully.
This seems to be recurring issue after timing chain job, many posts from E39 folks about the same. Some solved it by readjusting the timing wheel a few degrees CW, but I'm hesitant of doing that cause it's just in perfect position (not according to the DME I guess).
Any ideas? Thanks!

DSC06890.jpg

[georgebest]

Smoothness (just to trying out attaching a .gif)

20180420_181246 (1).gif

[Timm]

Do you mean P0022?

P0022 34 'A' Camshaft Position Timing Over-Retarded (Bank 2)

[georgebest]

INPA Just says "34 Nockenwellensteureung", there is no "A" in it.

[Timm]

The most likely cause is that something went awry when you were setting the full retard position - the best routine I have found on-line was the Besian Systems routine:


http://www.beisansystems.com/procedu..._procedure.htm

[georgebest]

The most likely cause is that something went awry when you were setting the full retard position - the best routine I have found on-line was the Besian Systems routine:


http://www.beisansystems.com/procedu..._procedure.htm

It could be that of course, but I did the 40Nm tightening with the tool, should be in full retard. (Followed Beisan and TIS, they are mostly the same)
Fortunately hundreds of posts about same issue in the E39 forums, it usually comes down to one of these:
- vanos unit not installed full retard (doubt it's an issue in my case as discussed above)
- vanos solenoid failure: I tested it with a brand new one, not an issue for me
- vanos unit fallure: this could be an issue, cause it's a rebuilt unit
- upper timing cover not entirely flush with valve cover: I actually have this problem, they are about 1mm off (fixing it now). The Beisan method not working well for me, not pushing down the cover strong enough, but trying do it with bar clamps. Maybe getting the BMW tools for it would work better.
- timing wheel off despite proper installation with tool: many E39 guys fixed it just by turning the wheel 2-7 degrees CW even if it's not aligned anymore with upper timing cover, this will be my last resort cause dont like the idea of going off the timing set by tools and confirmed by the timing cover hole.

Next step is getting upper timing cover perfect flush, if that's not helping trying moving the wheel a bit. If still doing it it has to be the vanos unit.
If I had to guess I would bet on the vanos unit, but hard to say until tried everything else.
The most "annoying" of all that the engine sounds and runs beautifully, but who wants to drive around with SES light, right? I rather spend the time on it and get it fixed.

[racer2086]

Sorry guys, yes I was talking to Ed on Facebook. Credit goes to racer2086, he and Ed suggested the same that I was 180 degree off. So I opened it up and to my surprise it was really off.
Manually turned the camshafts with flywheel pin on and now they are all at the proper position. Not sure if that was the proper way to do it, but I didnt need to use excessive force so probably ok.
I had no idea that you can be in TDC and still have it 180 degree off. I got lucky when doing it first time.
Hope nothing was destoryed when I was cranking it while it was off.
So finally some progress at least, and I'm a proud owner of some unnecessary new relays and a new crankshaft position sensor I will keep them, would have changed them anyway at some point.

Ah! Cool glad you figured it out. No way that was going to run 180 out. Smell your oil and make sure it's not drenched in gas from trying to get it running, although you probably would have known that by now.

[oldroller]

Good call on the timing cover being up a bit. Admittedly the difference would seems small, with the cover up 1mm or so,
but the relationship with the hole to wheel would change. Such a small amount of retardation might be picked up, these
systems are very sensitive to trigger wheel position.
Kudos for staying on it!

[georgebest]

Ah! Cool glad you figured it out. No way that was going to run 180 out. Smell your oil and make sure it's not drenched in gas from trying to get it running, although you probably would have known that by now.

Smart! I never thought about that but makes perfect sense. Thanks!!

- - - Updated - - -

Good call on the timing cover being up a bit. Admittedly the difference would seems small, with the cover up 1mm or so,
but the relationship with the hole to wheel would change. Such a small amount of retardation might be picked up, these
systems are very sensitive to trigger wheel position.
Kudos for staying on it!

It's one thing identifing the issue...whole another to actually solve it I think I'm getting two bar clamps and that would push it down enough. Easier than getting the BMW tools.
Just too busy with work, had no time to deal with it much, I will in a few days.