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Thread: Subframe bushings???

  1. #1
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    Subframe bushings???

    I had my subframe bushings replaced about 7 years ago with Ireland Engineering bushings. The vehicle is seldom driven and has only gone about 4000 miles since they were replaced. The guy who replaced them looked at them the other day and said they are basically destroyed in that they are crumbling with pieces falling out. I believe I had read in here before that IE had trouble with them? Is that correct? What are the best replacement bushings now? Has IE "fixed" their problem? The man who works on my vehicle said if it were his, he would put back in the original BMW stock bushings. Any thoughts on that? As always, thanks!!!

  2. #2
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    IE had a bad batch a few years ago that failed in that manner, the problem has been fixed according to IE and others who like to use them. Personally, I'm considering switching to Powerflex when I upgrade my subframe bushings in the future, they are a little harder to install as I understand but none of them crumbled to dust. Not that I am talking bad of IE, but regardless of if IE fixed them or not, the damage is somewhat done IMO... how do you know you aren't getting NOS units from the bad batch if you order a set today? How do we know their most recent batches have been OK, especially given the timeframe in which failure occured on the original bad batch? Have not seen any issues like this with any Powerflex bushings and they are used widely on a lot of BMW's and other cars.

    OEM is not recommended on these cars, they are soft enough to allow movement of the subframe which exacerbates the trunkfloor differential mount problem.

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  3. #3
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    Sorry you are having problems with the IE bushings. I have had no difficulty installing the Power-Flex bushings.
    Last edited by steve f; 01-26-2018 at 07:41 PM.

  4. #4
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    I had the same problem, my IE bushings crumbled into chunks, replaced with the Powerflex, no issues since then -- more than 6 years now
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  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by BimmerBreaker View Post

    OEM is not recommended on these cars, they are soft enough to allow movement of the subframe which exacerbates the trunkfloor differential mount problem.
    is this true? OEM is NOT recommended? I'm skeptical of suggestions to use poly bushings having come from the e46 chassis. Most people on the forums (e46fanatics) will just relentlessly rep whatever they happened to buy for no other reason that that. Not saying you are like that, in fact it seems like you are rather knowledgeable about these cars. Do OEM bushings seriously negatively impact the cars frame/trunkfloor?

    I just picked up a 48k mile 2001 Z3 Coupe 3.0i. The car has been climate controlled garage kept since 2004 when it had 38k miles on it. So 10k miles in the past 14 years. Should I look into reinforcing the subframe asap or should I not worry about it just yet...

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wrench Turner View Post
    Should I look into reinforcing the subframe asap or should I not worry about it just yet...
    Some do the subframe reinforcement as a preventative measure, or if they plan to track the car. Others wait until a problem surfaces, if it ever does. The poly subframe bushings are said to make the car handle better and help to keep subframe problems at bay. I can't speak to how much better the car handles with poly bushings, but I have a set ready to install this spring because I trust the knowledgeable members of this forum.
    Wayne

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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wrench Turner View Post
    is this true? OEM is NOT recommended? I'm skeptical of suggestions to use poly bushings having come from the e46 chassis. Most people on the forums (e46fanatics) will just relentlessly rep whatever they happened to buy for no other reason that that. Not saying you are like that, in fact it seems like you are rather knowledgeable about these cars. Do OEM bushings seriously negatively impact the cars frame/trunkfloor?

    I just picked up a 48k mile 2001 Z3 Coupe 3.0i. The car has been climate controlled garage kept since 2004 when it had 38k miles on it. So 10k miles in the past 14 years. Should I look into reinforcing the subframe asap or should I not worry about it just yet...
    Yes, they do. BB said it, and I believe him. I followed advice from this site. My 98 Z3M had no signs of trunkfloor failures, but it still had the stock sub-frame bushings. I installed IE poly subframe bushings in hopes that the stiffness will prevent me ever having to do the trunkfloor reinforcment. One study cited here says that if there are no signs of failure when the poly bushings are installed, there's a good chance it will never happen. That's how much better it is. I will watch it and hope.
    AND, poly bushings dramatically improve handling. A lot. So much that I called the stock rubber bushings a "design flaw", which might be dramatic, but accurate in describing how much better the car is with poly bushings. That alone is worth the install.

  8. #8
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    I had the powerflex in my e30 track car for 12 yrs of track time...they were great

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wrench Turner View Post
    is this true? OEM is NOT recommended?
    Yes this is a well known issue on the z3 chassis. The OEM bushing allows too much deflection of the rear carrier. This movement is transferred into the pickup point of the rear body differential mount and can rip things apart badly. Search Randy Forbes for the best solution if your rear pan section is exhibiting seam separation or popped spot welds. If no damage at least protect yourself with some polly subframe bushings and leave the differential mount soft rubber to relieve any movement that does happen. This will reduce the torque into the rear pan of the body.
    On the crumbling aftermarket bushings. Yes there was a run of bad material. Unfortunately it was at a time when it was very popular for the owners to be swapping out the bushings so the wholesale supply order was probably rather large. It was a supplier issue, not the vendor intentionally selling junk. I have use Ireland Engineering bushings with no issues. My current reds are over 10 yrs old. In good shape with many track miles and over 400hp/tq at the wheels. As far as I know, Ireland was the shop who first discovered or at least offered a solution to the problem. Do not hate the vendor for a supply of bad parts that no way could have been discovered until long after the batch was sold.
    Dan "PbFut" Rose

  10. #10
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    Ok, I'm half convinced. So my main concern is that adding a solid/poly bushing will transfer more road vibrations into my car. Look, I like spirited driving but I only drive my z3 coupe on public roads. I really don't care about increased handling so much as comfort. I had coilovers on my e46 daily driver for a while and it was absolutely terrible. They were high quality expensive coil overs too, KW's. I have never reached anywhere near the limits of this Z3 (or any car that i've owned) so I don't see how "increased handling" would do anything for me. I don't even know what understeer or oversteer feel like (maybe I do but just have not attached the names to the feelings but you get my point). The coil overs looked lovely on my e46 (not slammed by anymeans) but the offset in comfort was night and day. From everything I have heard about poly bushings...it has basically been that it absolutely makes your chassis stiffer and transfers tons of previously unnoticed road vibrations (and noise) into the cabin.

    I don't want people to get into my car and then comment how harsh the ride is. I don't want to have to constantly scan the roads ahead to avoid the slightest dip. I don't want to have to completly avoid certain parts of Baltimore city due to their shit roads.

    Will poly bushings do this? My sister used to weld for aerospace applications so I could always just have her weld in the reinforcement plates (although I know with e46s there are examples of those kits really just being bandaids that cause the cracking/tearing to simply occur farther away at different areas). Would that offset the rubber bushes? Or am I blowing this out of proportion. I like comfortable rides :\

    My e30 vert is hella cushy and I don't mind in the slightest. This past winter I replaced every bushing in the rear (aka the exact same set up as our z3s) with OEM rubber bushings and it's a great tight responsive ride.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wrench Turner View Post
    Ok, I'm half convinced. So my main concern is that adding a solid/poly bushing will transfer more road vibrations into my car. Look, I like spirited driving but I only drive my z3 coupe on public roads. I really don't care about increased handling so much as comfort. I had coilovers on my e46 daily driver for a while and it was absolutely terrible. They were high quality expensive coil overs too, KW's. I have never reached anywhere near the limits of this Z3 (or any car that i've owned) so I don't see how "increased handling" would do anything for me. I don't even know what understeer or oversteer feel like (maybe I do but just have not attached the names to the feelings but you get my point). The coil overs looked lovely on my e46 (not slammed by anymeans) but the offset in comfort was night and day. From everything I have heard about poly bushings...it has basically been that it absolutely makes your chassis stiffer and transfers tons of previously unnoticed road vibrations (and noise) into the cabin.

    I don't want people to get into my car and then comment how harsh the ride is. I don't want to have to constantly scan the roads ahead to avoid the slightest dip. I don't want to have to completly avoid certain parts of Baltimore city due to their shit roads.

    Will poly bushings do this? My sister used to weld for aerospace applications so I could always just have her weld in the reinforcement plates (although I know with e46s there are examples of those kits really just being bandaids that cause the cracking/tearing to simply occur farther away at different areas). Would that offset the rubber bushes? Or am I blowing this out of proportion. I like comfortable rides :\

    My e30 vert is hella cushy and I don't mind in the slightest. This past winter I replaced every bushing in the rear (aka the exact same set up as our z3s) with OEM rubber bushings and it's a great tight responsive ride.
    You're a hard guy to convince. All these opinions, all these threads to support the poly bushings, and you're only "half" convinced? I'm kidding, you get to be as convinced as you want to be, it's your car. Seriously, this is something every single Z3 or Z3M owner should do as soon as they get the car. You think you don't notice how your car handles, but after you do this, you will notice an improvement just driving down the road. You will like the car more. You will be happy. It will not make your car ride harsher or noisier. I did it and immediately noticed that the car was easier to drive. The back followed the front end around corners. I am still astonished that BMW ever made them with rubber bushings. ... And a second point that by itself makes it worthwhile: It might save you gobs of money on the trunk issue.

  12. #12
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    I'll throw in my comments since i) I'm up deploying software and ii) completed the subframe repair within the last few years.

    I didn't notice any additional road noise or notice any improved handling (I'm not that much of a spirited driver) after the repair. However, the repair did give me the peace-of-mind that the subframe was reinforced. The repair also allowed me to replace all of the old bushings and seals.

    Tony
    Tony
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  13. #13
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    I appreciate the ongoing responses guys. I'm sorry but I am totally jaded by the state of e46fanatics, aka it's filled with people who know nothing claiming they know everything. People making it seem like they are car experts when in reality they are broke teens who only got their cars through parent loans etc. No joke, the biggest reason people on e46fanatics replace their bushings with poly ones is because they simply don't have access to a press and find the installation of poly bushings to be easier. It's ridiculous.

    This crowd certainly seems more mature. So...you guys are saying only the subframe to chassis bushings should be made poly. You keep the RTABs the OEM rubber as well as the diff mount? I'll go ahead and search these forums more for threads on these poly bushings and see what I find.
    Last edited by Wrench Turner; 02-23-2018 at 11:40 PM.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wrench Turner View Post
    I appreciate the ongoing responses guys. I'm sorry but I am totally jaded by the state of e46fanatics, aka it's filled with people who know nothing claiming they know everything. People making it seem like they are car experts when in reality they are broke teens who only got their cars through parent loans etc. No joke, the biggest reason people on e46fanatics replace their bushings with poly ones is because they simply don't have access to a press and find the installation of poly bushings to be easier. It's ridiculous.

    This crowd certainly seems more mature. So...you guys are saying only the subframe to chassis bushings should be made poly. You keep the RTABs the OEM rubber as well as the diff mount? I'll go ahead and search these forums more for threads on these poly bushings and see what I find.
    If you refer to "e46fanatics" one more time, I'm gonna scream.....................................

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    Quote Originally Posted by zellamay View Post
    If you refer to "e46fanatics" one more time, I'm gonna scream.....................................
    e46fanatics, e46fanatics, e46fantics, e46anatics, e46fanatics, E46FANATICS, E46FANATICS!

    wait, what just happened, I blacked out.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wrench Turner View Post
    I appreciate the ongoing responses guys. I'm sorry but I am totally jaded by the state of e46fanatics, aka it's filled with people who know nothing claiming they know everything. People making it seem like they are car experts when in reality they are broke teens who only got their cars through parent loans etc. No joke, the biggest reason people on e46fanatics replace their bushings with poly ones is because they simply don't have access to a press and find the installation of poly bushings to be easier. It's ridiculous.

    This crowd certainly seems more mature. So...you guys are saying only the subframe to chassis bushings should be made poly. You keep the RTABs the OEM rubber as well as the diff mount? I'll go ahead and search these forums more for threads on these poly bushings and see what I find.
    Yes, we are a mature crowd and have members who have been here for decades and who have been discussing this very issue for over a decade. The issue with the rubber bushings is that they allow too much play between the uni-body and the rear suspension sub-frame. The Z3, unlike other e36's, has a single ear offset differential mount that is bolted through a bushing to a little bent sheet metal bracket, that is itself spot welded to a cross member, that is itself spot welded to the trunk floor. Under heavy loading and unloading of the differential, and as multiplied by the angle of offset of the mount, the excess play in the rubber sub-frame bushings allows the differential to twist relative to the body, and leads to excessive force being transmitted through the single ear differential mount to the bent sheet metal bracket, through the cross member and to the spot welds at the floor. The spot welds at the floor break free over time, and as each one does, the remaining spot welds bear that much more stress. As more and more spot welds break free there is more and more movement in the bracket/cross member/floor system, and the metal stress-cracks, twists, and breaks free, eventually ripping the floor out of the trunk and dropping the differential onto the ground.



    The theory that has been proposed in this forum is that by using poly sub-frame bushings, there will be less movement at the mount, and therefore less energy transmitted through it to the cross member and its spot welds to the trunk floor. The differential is solidly bolted to the sub-frame at 4 points, and is itself bolted to the uni-body through the sub-frame mounts, and so this seams a reasonable theory. In practice the collected evidence seems to support the theory, but, of course, there are no controls, and we are collecting only anecdotal evidence that is being self reported--so you take that corroboration only for what it's worth.

    The proper repair of the trunk floor/cross member/differential mount system is extensive and expensive. It was developed by a forum member here who has been active since he bought his MZ3 new, and remains active now; his name is Randy Forbes (credit for the pic above is from his shop). We refer to his solution as the RF Kit. The RF Kit is not a band-aid that transfers the energy to some other location where it can cause more issues, but rather is a very well developed and thought out system that transfers the energy across panels to hard points that more than capably absorb it. There have been many hundreds (perhaps thousands now) of these repairs performed, and to date no reports of further issues. But it is a very extensive repair, involving the complete disassembly of the rear suspension, removal of the sub-frame, drilling out of the spot welds, and the welding in of a completely new cross member/energy transmission apparatus, together with a complete removal and redesign of the differential mount to a two ear system. A LOT of work.

    So, when we on this forum recommend going to poly sub-frame bushings, we do not do so lightly or flippantly, or merely because it supports our own bias. We're serious about that recommendation. General consensus is to stick with OE RTAB's because the poly ones squeak. Under no circumstances replace the differential mount with poly--that's just begging for the floor to fail--my recommendation is to leave the differential mount alone unless it has clearly failed. Replace the OE rear shock mounts with aftermarket--Rouge Engineering makes a very good replacement mount that allows for future bushing replacement from underneath (easier), and simultaneously will not need to be rebuilt as often as OE needs to be replaced.

  17. #17
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    +1 what Randy said. There are now also multiple choices when it comes to the hardness of the bushings 75a, 85a, 95a, so you can tailor the bushings to your use i.e. softer 75a for street, harder 95a for track. I've used poly in both street and track cars going back 20 years now they have been around for quite sometime and are used universally for good reason they work.
    One material I would stay away from is Delrin in high stress/load areas. I put Delrin RTAB bushing in my track car and after a single season they had failed, cracked and falling apart.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by CMM3 View Post
    +1 what Randy said. There are now also multiple choices when it comes to the hardness of the bushings 75a, 85a, 95a, so you can tailor the bushings to your use i.e. softer 75a for street, harder 95a for track. I've used poly in both street and track cars going back 20 years now they have been around for quite sometime and are used universally for good reason they work.
    One material I would stay away from is Delrin in high stress/load areas. I put Delrin RTAB bushing in my track car and after a single season they had failed, cracked and falling apart.
    That was actually Ralph, one of my best advocates, not me!

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Bingley View Post
    Yes, we are a mature crowd and have members who have been here for decades and who have been discussing this very issue for over a decade. The issue with the rubber bushings is that they allow too much play between the uni-body and the rear suspension sub-frame. The Z3, unlike other e36's, has a single ear offset differential mount that is bolted through a bushing to a little bent sheet metal bracket, that is itself spot welded to a cross member, that is itself spot welded to the trunk floor. Under heavy loading and unloading of the differential, and as multiplied by the angle of offset of the mount, the excess play in the rubber sub-frame bushings allows the differential to twist relative to the body, and leads to excessive force being transmitted through the single ear differential mount to the bent sheet metal bracket, through the cross member and to the spot welds at the floor. The spot welds at the floor break free over time, and as each one does, the remaining spot welds bear that much more stress. As more and more spot welds break free there is more and more movement in the bracket/cross member/floor system, and the metal stress-cracks, twists, and breaks free, eventually ripping the floor out of the trunk and dropping the differential onto the ground.



    The theory that has been proposed in this forum is that by using poly sub-frame bushings, there will be less movement at the mount, and therefore less energy transmitted through it to the cross member and its spot welds to the trunk floor. The differential is solidly bolted to the sub-frame at 4 points, and is itself bolted to the uni-body through the sub-frame mounts, and so this seams a reasonable theory. In practice the collected evidence seems to support the theory, but, of course, there are no controls, and we are collecting only anecdotal evidence that is being self reported--so you take that corroboration only for what it's worth.

    The proper repair of the trunk floor/cross member/differential mount system is extensive and expensive. It was developed by a forum member here who has been active since he bought his MZ3 new, and remains active now; his name is Randy Forbes (credit for the pic above is from his shop). We refer to his solution as the RF Kit. The RF Kit is not a band-aid that transfers the energy to some other location where it can cause more issues, but rather is a very well developed and thought out system that transfers the energy across panels to hard points that more than capably absorb it. There have been many hundreds (perhaps thousands now) of these repairs performed, and to date no reports of further issues. But it is a very extensive repair, involving the complete disassembly of the rear suspension, removal of the sub-frame, drilling out of the spot welds, and the welding in of a completely new cross member/energy transmission apparatus, together with a complete removal and redesign of the differential mount to a two ear system. A LOT of work.

    So, when we on this forum recommend going to poly sub-frame bushings, we do not do so lightly or flippantly, or merely because it supports our own bias. We're serious about that recommendation. General consensus is to stick with OE RTAB's because the poly ones squeak. Under no circumstances replace the differential mount with poly--that's just begging for the floor to fail--my recommendation is to leave the differential mount alone unless it has clearly failed. Replace the OE rear shock mounts with aftermarket--Rouge Engineering makes a very good replacement mount that allows for future bushing replacement from underneath (easier), and simultaneously will not need to be rebuilt as often as OE needs to be replaced.
    Thank you Ralph!

    I will go on to say this about the polyurethane bushes, you don't have to care about handling or fast driving to benefit from the improved stability they provide, and this should be apparent during the first sweeping bend after installation. You don't realize how much rear-steer you're compensating for when you drive a Z3/M, until you don't have to anymore.

  19. #19
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    About the noise/ride harshness concern. After installing the IE poly bushings, I noticed no change in ride harshness a slight increase in differential whine under hard acceleration (which I like), and the back end of the car feels more stable and controlled.

    I suspect that in general most poly bushings just make cars worse, but in this case I believe there is a real improvement with no downside.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wrench Turner View Post
    e46fanatics, e46fanatics, e46fantics, e46anatics, e46fanatics, E46FANATICS, E46FANATICS!

    wait, what just happened, I blacked out.
    Thank you for a laugh to start my day..........................

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wrench Turner View Post
    is this true? OEM is NOT recommended? I'm skeptical of suggestions to use poly bushings having come from the e46 chassis. Most people on the forums (e46fanatics) will just relentlessly rep whatever they happened to buy for no other reason that that. Not saying you are like that, in fact it seems like you are rather knowledgeable about these cars. Do OEM bushings seriously negatively impact the cars frame/trunkfloor?

    I just picked up a 48k mile 2001 Z3 Coupe 3.0i. The car has been climate controlled garage kept since 2004 when it had 38k miles on it. So 10k miles in the past 14 years. Should I look into reinforcing the subframe asap or should I not worry about it just yet...
    It's true man

    Besides, anyone who can get the OEM bushings out has the skills to get any type of new bushing in they want - so it's not an "ease of maintenance" thing like it sounds like it is in the E46 world.

    Something something load transferring, flex load, physics, energy, friction ...you know? I've never noticed a big increase in NVH from the poly bushings, they aren't a dynamic suspension bushing, they sit at a "hard mount" where the subframe bolts to the car. The rear trailing arm bushings (RTAB's) still sit between the wheel and the car softening the road harshness. With soft stock subframe bushings the rear subframe is allowed a lot of deflection - under hard acceleration, hard cornering, or really rough road surfaces. This allows the subframe to move and in turn to pull at the only other point the subframe mounts to the car other than the mounts - the differential, which pulls at the very weak trunkfloor. Poly bushings tighten up this system and prevent the subframe from being able to move as much in the first place, this in turn tightens up the rear suspension feel without sacrificing NVH and prevents the movement which causes the trunkfloor to tear.

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  22. #22
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    I just took a look at the Powerflex website. I'm assuming that the bushings we are talking about are what they call rear beam bushing, with only two choices, street or race. Correct?

    Marty

  23. #23
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    Thanks for the responses guys. There seems to be quite a wealth of information on this site. Cheers

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  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by MORRIE View Post
    I believe so but can be found cheaper elsewhere
    Last edited by bob3275; 02-25-2018 at 03:35 PM.

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