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Thread: Necessary to Replace Springs?

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    Necessary to Replace Springs?

    I will be replacing my front shocks soon. One is leaking badly. My `93 525i has 169K mi. I haven't measured the ride height but it doesn't appear like the car is sagging. The springs have some surface rust on them, but don't appear broken or rotten. I do not want to lower the car. I'd like to return it to it's former glory.

    Replacing springs is a grey area. Most that replace springs are either due to them breaking (not common on this generation) or because they want to lower the car. However, it's rare people replace them with original equipment springs. Some sources say to replace after 140K mi. Others say you never need to replace springs unless sagging or broken (or rusted according to one source). Due to the weight constantly sitting on the springs after 25 years, I wonder if this can play into spring wear, or even wearing harder on a shock or other suspension components. I read that the springs do more than most people give them credit for - ride included. My car leans a lot and rides rough and skips over large bumps.

    For Ride Height.... BMW recommends adding 150 lb. to each front seat, the same in the rear ctr. seat, and 46 lbs. in the trunk and a full-tank. A bit much really... minus the full-tank. If all weight is added as indicated, the front should measure 23 1/8" and the rear 20 1/2" for a stock suspension and wheel. If I don't add weight, would the correct ride height be about 1/4-1/2" higher than listed?

    It's probably rare that anyone has replaced only the springs and not the shocks at one time... therefore, it'd be hard to say how different the car handles or rides after replacing the springs, as often it's the shocks and the springs that are creating the effect of better handling and ride.

    Appreciate hearing from those who have experience with Spring replacement - particularly stock. Thanks.
    Last edited by E28E34; 01-22-2018 at 06:41 PM.

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    Necessary to Replace Springs?

    Getting a good quality performance/sport damper will really change the character of your car. No need to replace the springs unless there is an issue.
    You can then decide later if you want it lowered.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Last edited by bluptgm3; 01-22-2018 at 08:14 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by E28E34 View Post
    Some sources say to replace after 140K mi.
    I'd like to see that source and its credentials. My $.02 is that...
    ... you never need to replace springs unless sagging or broken (or rusted according to one source).
    I read that the springs do more than most people give them credit for - ride included. My car leans a lot and rides rough and skips over large bumps.
    The are more subtleties to springs than people give credit for, but what you're describing is entirely due to the shocks. Ride problems can happen from bent, broken, or severely sagging springs, but never just from age. Rust is a reason to replace them only as a prophylactic.

    For Ride Height.... BMW recommends adding 150 lb. to each front seat, the same in the rear ctr. seat, and 46 lbs. in the trunk and a full-tank. A bit much really... minus the full-tank. If all weight is added as indicated, the front should measure 23 1/8" and the rear 20 1/2" for a stock suspension and wheel. If I don't add weight, would the correct ride height be about 1/4-1/2" higher than listed?
    BMW's ride height specs for stock suspensions are ridiculously high. Stock front spring rates are in the neighborhood of 20-23 N/mm (more like 18 for 518i). If you really want to get technical, BMW should've specified at what position the front seats should be when loaded; if they're all the way forward, there'll be more load on the front axle than if they're all the way back. Assuming they're dead center between the front and rear axles, 300# total is 150# for the front axle, or an extra 667N, or 334N per wheel, or ~16mm lower ride height.

    I've replaced springs with the same shocks, but never used OE springs. Spring part numbers are a headache and a half to source; I can do it but only because I read Russian (the only comprehensive spring charts I can find are on Russian sites, and believe me, I've looked). There are up to a dozen different springs, per axle, per model, per suspension type (stock vs. sport vs. rough road vs. M-Tech and probably others), depending on individual options. Even headlight washers make a difference. Let me know if you really want to open this can of worms and I'll help.

    My advice, if you want bone-stock footwork? Sand and paint your stock springs and otherwise leave them alone.
    Last edited by moroza; 01-23-2018 at 02:26 AM.

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    Thank you Moroza. I like your tachometer by the way. I've read over time, springs will lose their 'springyness' and the ride and handling will suffer - though yes, shocks play the bigger role - just not the only role.

    The rust is is minor to fair on the springs. Not all brown and flaking off, but not little minor specks either. Not going to sand or paint them. Perhaps this level of rust is slightly weakening them?

    Good point about what position seats should be in.... they should have specified that. Does anyone really add this weight when deciphering the proper ride height? Do you think adding 1/4-1/2" above ride height specs. is correct if no weight is added?

    Here is the site regarding replacing by 140K mi:
    http://www.bmwblog.com/2017/06/28/replace-bmws-springs/

    You are right, the part numbers are varied for just the 525i E34 alone. The dealer said based on my Vin I'd need 31-33-1-090-998 for Front Springs. However when I google it, hardly anything comes up.... no model is specified. When I enter just `93 525i and the correct prod. date on realoem, mobile tradition, and dealer sites, they list 31-33-2-226-669 as the correct front springs. Under some other menus I've seen 31-33-1-133-336.

    Funny you mention... my car does have headlight and foglight washers. So that minor additional weight could be why it's just enough for BMW to specify a slightly stiffer front spring perhaps. Hard to believe the system would weight more than 10 lbs. - but maybe that's enough justification. Would it also require different rear springs too?

    I am on the fence, but leaning more towards replacing the Front Springs - due to age, ride and handling, rust and the fact that it all has to come out to replace the shocks anyways. Why is it so difficult to locate the proper Springs? Interesting why Russian sites come up for Springs. Thank you, I would appreciate your help in finding the proper springs.
    Last edited by E28E34; 01-23-2018 at 05:41 PM.

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    Rust weakens metal, to which springs are no exception. I've seen 10 year old coil springs that I'd call "light-medium-rusty" snap (I've seen many much rustier and older leaf springs hold up just fine, however). If there's any flaking at all, consider this: spring rate varies with the fourth power of wire diameter. On a typical E34-sized spring, losing 0.1mm off the spring wire results in a 5% decrease in spring rate and a 6mm decrease in ride height. And that's not even getting into metal that's turned to rust and lost its strength but not actually flaked off yet.

    So yes, if there's meaningful rust, replace them.

    With all due respect to the author of that blog, the 140k number reminds me of Scott Adams' etymology for the word "analysis" - it's from two Greek roots, anal and ysis, which means "to pull numbers out of". Stock E34s at 25 years old look no less jacked-up at the front than photos from when they were new.

    I've added weight while getting an alignment. Car batteries and some guy sleeping on my couch got pressed into service

    Russian forums and car DIY blogs seem to be much more fastidious about part numbers and other documentation than US ones.

    Go to bmwvin.com and find what options your car came with. Post the results here, and I'll dig up spring PNs.
    Last edited by moroza; 01-23-2018 at 06:27 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by E28E34 View Post
    Why is it so difficult to locate the proper Springs?
    Somewhere there is (or was) a secret spring catalog for each car. Why it's secret, I don't know. I've seen excerpts from it for my E24 M635 (which also covers the euro E28 M5)... There was a points system for weight. Air conditioning was 10 points, and many tiny nonsense items like the OBC were 1 point (I guess the wiring to it could have some weight?). There were 3 different springs, one would only come equipped on a very stripped down M5 (the E28 is lighter than the E24), the middle one covered almost everything without air conditioning, and the stiffest was for AC.

    As for the E34, there's also an M-tech spring for most versions (maybe all, I don't know). Personally I'm a big fan of factory ride, like you seem to be, but if I could go slightly lower with the same ride quality for the same price, I would.

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    I have parts of this secret catalog in my E34 FSM, but it doesn't cover all models. All it does is tell me what spring PNs will raise or lower ride height in increments of approximately 7mm.

    Russian and Ukrainian sites have been a lifesaver for figuring out Euro-market-only parts interchange and country of origin information. People photograph the boxes their shit came in... it's unreal, and a real blessing. Here's an example. Seems a 21st century result of internet + moderate poverty + decades of Soviet car culture where there basically weren't professional mechanics, and DIY was the norm.

    The best-riding BMW I've ever been in was a bone-stock 534i. I hold the factory suspension tuning in very high regard, it just looks stupid.

    I've been compiling data to come up with a custom spring specification that will solve the 4x4 vs. Stanceposer vs. racecar problem. Stay tuned.
    Last edited by moroza; 01-23-2018 at 08:53 PM.

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    Thanks Moroza. When I have time, I'll see if I can take a few photos of the Springs. The Strut Housings have some rust but not as much as the springs. The Strut Housings are way too costly to replace and only needed if in a considerable collision is my understanding.

    Funny about how you weighed your car down.... it worked though. I will also measure the ride-height and post too.

    Amazing that the Springs can lose that much strength/spring rate due to what may appear to be minor surface rust. Wow. My 525i has seen rough Canadian, Ohio and New England Winters (hence my Avatar - Ice Racing in VT).

    Thanks... interesting site. Here is the list of items for my car:

    Vehicle information

    VINWBAHD6315PBJ85222
    Type CodeHD63
    E SeriesE34 ()
    Series5
    TypeLIM
    Model525I (USA)
    SteeringLL
    Doors4
    EngineM50
    Displacement2.50
    Power141
    DriveHECK
    TransmissionAUT
    ColourISLANDGRUEN METALLIC (273)
    Upholstery(0396)
    Prod. Date1992-10-09



    Vehicle options

    L838ANational version Canada
    S240ALeather steering wheel
    S288ABMW light alloy wheel, cross spoke 29
    S438AFine wood trim
    S458AElectr. front seat adjustment
    S464ASki bag
    S472AArmrest, front, driver/passenger
    S494ASeat heating driver/passenger
    S498AHeadrests, rear, mechanically adjustable
    S500AHeadlight wipe/wash/Intensive cleaning
    S553AOn-board computer IV with remote control
    S640APreparation f tel.installation universal
    S686AAntenna-Diversity
    S694AProvisions for BMW 6 CD changer
    S818ABattery master switch
    S925ADummy-SALAPA


    Thank you Layne. Interesting about the points. Very meticulous/over-the-top especially for the OBC. For the A/C that makes sense.
    Last edited by E28E34; 01-23-2018 at 08:35 PM.

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    https://bmwcats.com/bmw/E34/47404/L:...HD6315PBJ85222

    Lists your options:
    L838A Экспортное исполнение для Канады
    N240A НПБ
    N500A Система омывателей фар
    N553A Бортовой компьютер
    S240A Рулевое колесо с НПБ, кожа
    S288A Л/с диск BMW с крестообраз.спицами 29
    S438A Исполнение из ценных пород дерева
    S458A Регулировка сиденья Пд с э/приводом
    S464A чехол для перевозки лыж
    S472A Подлокотник Пд водителя/перед.пассажира
    S494A Система обогр.сиден.водителя/перед.пасс.
    S498A Подголовники в зад.ч.сал.с механ.прив.
    S500A Сист.омывателей фар/ интенс.очист.стекол
    S553A Бортовой компьютер IV с ДУ
    S640A подготовка под телефон универсальная
    S686A Разнесенная антенна
    S694A Подгот.под CD-чейнд.на 6 диск.BMW
    S818A Главный выключатель батареи

    Front 31 33 1 090 998, rear 33 53 1 133 339. However, option S465A changes the rear spring to 340. S465A is "System with a hatch for transporting long objects"; I guess it's where the ski bag goes, and the bag itself is S464A ("sheath for transporting skis"). I don't know how you can have the bag without the hatch?
    Last edited by moroza; 01-23-2018 at 09:04 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by moroza View Post
    [URL] However, option S465A changes the rear spring to 340. S465A is "System with a hatch for transporting long objects"; I guess it's where the ski bag goes, and the bag itself is S464A ("sheath for transporting skis"). I don't know how you can have the bag without the hatch?
    That would be the "through loading facility". The seat bottom flips forward, and both sides of the seat fold down. Can fit much more than skis in there. Obviously very rare, and a touring is way better. Although my touring still has the ski bag for reasons I can't understand.

    Last edited by Layne; 01-23-2018 at 09:47 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by moroza View Post
    https://bmwcats.com/bmw/E34/47404/L:...HD6315PBJ85222

    Lists your options:
    L838A Экспортное исполнение для Канады
    N240A НПБ
    N500A Система омывателей фар
    N553A Бортовой компьютер
    S240A Рулевое колесо с НПБ, кожа
    S288A Л/с диск BMW с крестообраз.спицами 29
    S438A Исполнение из ценных пород дерева
    S458A Регулировка сиденья Пд с э/приводом
    S464A чехол для перевозки лыж
    S472A Подлокотник Пд водителя/перед.пассажира
    S494A Система обогр.сиден.водителя/перед.пасс.
    S498A Подголовники в зад.ч.сал.с механ.прив.
    S500A Сист.омывателей фар/ интенс.очист.стекол
    S553A Бортовой компьютер IV с ДУ
    S640A подготовка под телефон универсальная
    S686A Разнесенная антенна
    S694A Подгот.под CD-чейнд.на 6 диск.BMW
    S818A Главный выключатель батареи

    Front 31 33 1 090 998, rear 33 53 1 133 339. However, option S465A changes the rear spring to 340. S465A is "System with a hatch for transporting long objects"; I guess it's where the ski bag goes, and the bag itself is S464A ("sheath for transporting skis"). I don't know how you can have the bag without the hatch?
    The best-riding BMW I've ever been in was a bone-stock 534i. I hold the factory suspension tuning in very high regard, it just looks stupid.
    My car rode beautifully at around 94K mi. when I bought it. The front shocks were repl. at the dealer by prev. owner around 86K mi.

    I played around with checking the boxes too. Interesting. Like you said, the dealer listed 998 for front and 339 for the rear..... clearly not the typical base 525i - due to extra non-US equipment.

    Yes, my car has a Ski Bag and Door in the Ctr. Rear Armrest. Clicking that option alone does not change the rear springs to a 340, unless the Rear Headrests Parts are also selected. So the combo. of both changes to a 340 from a 339. Odd. But apparently that qualifies as around an extra 55 lbs. (25kg) - see right column list. When I selected that extra eqip. of 25kg without others selected, the rear springs went from 339 to 340.

    Question is... how much of a difference is a 339 Spring vs. a 340 Spring? Just enough to support an extra 25kg (50 lbs.) of extra equipment I suppose, such as the Ski Bag and Door and Rear Headrests. How much stiffer/firmer would it ride? Does my car have the 339 or 340 on it now? They are originals. (The dealer seems to think 339). I seem to recall seeing beige/pink stripes on them.
    Last edited by E28E34; 01-23-2018 at 09:54 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Layne View Post
    That would be the "through loading facility". The seat bottom flips forward, and both sides of the seat fold down. Can fit much more than skis in there. Obviously very rare, and a touring is way better. Although my touring still has the ski bag for reasons I can't understand.

    Are you sure this was available on the 1993 models? I've never seen this.

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    The car pictured happens to be a 1993. This one is in Canada though, I'm not sure if you could get this on a US car. It's ULTRA rare, even in Germany.


    https://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/s...2-A-chicks-car

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    Quote Originally Posted by Layne View Post
    The car pictured happens to be a 1993. This one is in Canada though, I'm not sure if you could get this on a US car. It's ULTRA rare, even in Germany.


    https://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/s...2-A-chicks-car
    Interesting. Rare indeed. Yeah, makes sense - the leather pattern does not look like a `94-`95. I googled option S465A BMW E34, and sure enough it points to folding rear seats... but the code also applies to E39 and later cars. So looks like a 339 rear Spring is just fine as the dealer said.

    Mine is a Canada car too. Too bad they skipped on this option and the LSD.

    Nice car in that link. Where are the latches to get the seat down?
    Last edited by E28E34; 01-23-2018 at 10:09 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by E28E34 View Post
    Where are the latches to get the seat down?
    Good question... realoem shows a cable mechanism with a lever that probably sticks out by the seatbelt latches on each side. http://www.realoem.com/bmw/enUS/show...diagId=52_0324

    Edit: There it is


    Fold down seats.JPG
    Last edited by Layne; 01-23-2018 at 11:54 PM.

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    Oh, folding rear seats = S465A. That makes perfect sense. I forgot that option existed; seen and heard of exactly one E34 (in Canada) with it, an M50 car but forget the year.

    My question is where is the battery and all the rear electronics? The seat bottom folds forward (on Tourings there's no need) and looks a lot deeper than the stock bench.

    So you don't have the folding seats. That means your car takes 339 rears. 50# is 1.4% of a 3600# car. The same ride height with the same spring free length (probably but not definitely the same; I can't get that info) means 1.4% higher spring rate.

    You're thinking of buying these straight from the dealer? If you do, there is an opportunity to do the E34 community a great favor: get the dealer to order as many E34 springs (I'm just interested in fronts) as they're willing to deal with returning, bring a measuring tape and calipers, and get dimensions.
    Last edited by moroza; 01-23-2018 at 10:31 PM.

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    I can mention to the parts person - not likely they'll be willing... we'll see. Got car back, was in shop for E-brakes, backing plates, turned into rear hubs, a few brake lines, rear rotors and pads. Drove a base `14 Jetta loaner for nearly 2 wks. Fun car, but wow, getting back into my E34 was so much more sophisticated feeling - not as tossable, but just felt more level and compliant... albeit with 1 blown and other very worn shocks. Stereo and seats are nicer in the E34. Plan on taking pics. of the Springs soon and measuring ride height. The springs aren't as rusty as I thought, they look fair for 25 yrs. in the rustbelt. Maybe 1/4-1/8 is discolored and rustyish. I know this thread needs more pics. so here's a few general ones of the car for now..... (photobucket is horribly slow, took me over 20 min. just to get these up)






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    What, are those pics from 1998? That car looks clean!

    Ride height is officially measured from the bottom of the rim to the edge of the wheelwell. I also take a stick, lay it as flat as possible on the top of the front tire (or rear if it's not tucked), and measure from its bottom edge to the fender. Pics should be taken from at least 10 feet away and as perpendicular to the wheel as possible.

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    Apparently the mythical blue insert thrust arm bushing exists and is still being produced and not replaced by the V8/V12 version or the M5 one.
    Last edited by XAlt; 01-27-2018 at 10:32 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by moroza View Post
    What, are those pics from 1998? That car looks clean!

    Ride height is officially measured from the bottom of the rim to the edge of the wheelwell. I also take a stick, lay it as flat as possible on the top of the front tire (or rear if it's not tucked), and measure from its bottom edge to the fender. Pics should be taken from at least 10 feet away and as perpendicular to the wheel as possible.
    Thank you. Pics are from 2014-2015.

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    Measured the Ride Height today with Full-Tank of Fuel. Stock 15 Wheels. Measured from top wheel-arch to bottom center of wheel:

    No Weight in Trunk, Back Seat or Front-Seats:

    Front = 23 1/16"
    Rear = 21 1/2"

    Per BMW Ride Height Requirements.... Added 46 lbs. in trunk, rear center (near seats). Adjusted Front Seats slightly more forward of center position. Worked with a passenger who weighed 129 and added 21 lbs. weight to lap to equal 150 lbs. Measured RF while she was in RF seat.... and LF while she was in LF seat. Then measured both LR and RR while she was in center of back seat.

    Front = 22 3/4"
    Rear = 21 1/16"

    Since BMW does not specify where the weight in the trunk the weight is to be added... I moved the 46 lbs. to nearest to the latch. Made a slight difference compared to no weight added. By moving that weight rearward it showed a lower ride height of 3/8" vs. no weight. Note when I moved weight near latch, the passenger was not in car.

    Rear = 21 1/8"

    Stock Ride Height according to Bentley Manual, with Full-Tank, 46 lbs. in trunk, 150 lbs. in rear center seat, and 150 lbs. in Front Seats:

    Front = 23 1/8"
    Rear = 20 1/2"

    Conclusions.....

    Strangely the rear is slightly higher than stock ride height - even with weight added. Shocks and Springs never replaced in rear. I suspect, because I only had 1 passenger to work with, and only had so much weight.... the ride-height was higher than spec. as there was no 150 lbs. in each front seat - only the rear center. Weight in the front seats would have lowered the ride height.

    The front is slightly sagging by 3/8" or 0.375". Due to this, it's safe to assume the rear springs are equally as worn as the fronts. There is also slightly more rust on rear springs too.

    Will upload pics. of slight rust on Springs soon.

    Based on this I plan to order new front BMW springs for this Vin. I just hope the new Springs don't raise the car more when no weight is added. I would hope not. They hopefully will just not compress as much when weight is added.
    Last edited by E28E34; 02-04-2018 at 08:23 PM.

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    My Metallurgy-101-level understanding is that spring rate will not change with wear (unless rust), but they can take a "set" and have a shorter free length from prolonged and heavy use. That means the hope in your last sentence will be for nought: the new springs will sit higher but not compress any less when loaded. Of course, there's the rust factor.

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    Quote Originally Posted by moroza View Post
    My Metallurgy-101-level understanding is that spring rate will not change with wear (unless rust), but they can take a "set" and have a shorter free length from prolonged and heavy use. That means the hope in your last sentence will be for nought: the new springs will sit higher but not compress any less when loaded. Of course, there's the rust factor.
    I would suspect it'd be negligible visual difference. I would think the car would not lower as much when the weight would be added. Perhaps with no extra weight added, the front will sit/measure the same with new springs as with these worn springs.

    If you drove this car you'd see how lazy it feels in turns, steering input, body roll, and how bumps are not absorbed as well they should be. Can't be all shocks clearly.
    Last edited by E28E34; 02-04-2018 at 08:58 PM.

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    My Cars
    are slow
    Quote Originally Posted by E28E34 View Post
    I would suspect it'd be negligible visual difference. I would think the car would not lower as much when the weight would be added. Perhaps with no extra weight added, the front will sit/measure the same with new springs as with these worn springs.

    If you drove this car you'd see how lazy it feels in turns, steering input, body roll, and how bumps are not absorbed as well they should be. Can't be all shocks clearly.
    So you're saying it drives like a W124?

    Got it

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