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Thread: ABS Pump Bleeder Nipple?

  1. #26
    NeilM is offline Member BMW E36 M3 Expert
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    Quote Originally Posted by golgo13 View Post
    This is a small side thing we’re doing for fun, so it’s slow going. Probably have them ready in six to eight weeks or so.
    Hey, I've owned this car since new in 1996. I can wait a couple more months. ;-)

    Neil

  2. #27
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    If it's not too expensive this is something I may be interested in.

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G920A using Tapatalk

  3. #28
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    Cool. I'll keep updating as we go. I think the tube cutter arrived Friday.

  4. #29
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    I'd be interested as well.

  5. #30
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    Still making progress on this.


    Used a coathanger to get the line routing and then measured it with a string.

    EDIT: It's hard to tell in the video, but the line clears the connector and will route under the wiring.





    Last edited by golgo13; 05-14-2018 at 03:59 PM.

  6. #31
    NeilM is offline Member BMW E36 M3 Expert
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    Here's my spare ABS pump with a length of -3 hose and its swaged on 10mm banjo fitting that bolts right up to the bleed nipple port without any modification:

    ABS-pump-sm.jpg

    This should make an effective remote bleeder setup for the ABS pump. The banjo fitting allows the hose to be directed upward and in whatever fore/aft orientation works best. The other end of the hose will have a bulkhead mount bleed nipple fitting installed on it:



    See: https://www.pegasusautoracing.com/pr...asp?RecID=5207

    The bulkhead mount (external thread) configuration allows it to be through-mounted to a bracket that I'll need to fab up. That'll either be attached to the strut tower sheet metal or to some other convenient location in the general area. At that point I'll be able determine the proper length to cut the hose and will install the bleed fitting to it. That will have to wait until I'm ready to drain and take off the brake fluid reservoir again to get to the ABS pump.

    Oh I do so love splashing brake fluid around...

    My objective was to use readily available, off-the-shelf race car plumbing parts that would need a minimum of subsequent alteration or fabrication. The 3-AN hose also allows for flexibility in routing and mounting of the bleeder end. Other than bolting the banjo fitting to the ABS pump, the only work required is assembling the bleeder end to the hose and coming up with a mounting bracket.

    Total parts cost from Pegasus is $55.10 (plus shipping) per installation. Note that for this high pressure application only steel fittings must be used.

    Neil
    Last edited by NeilM; 06-15-2018 at 05:04 PM.

  7. #32
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    Nice work guys. How deep do the threads go into the ABS pump? I'm trying to find the right length banjo bolt.

  8. #33
    NeilM is offline Member BMW E36 M3 Expert
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    Thread depth measures as 10.4mm.

    I bought two different banjo fittings and two different M10x1.0 banjo bolts (20 and 25mm) from Pegasus to try out. Depending on the banjo fitting you’ll likely want the shorter bolt.

    I’ll post details in the next day or two, but I now have a completed and very clean dry fit installation, and based on that a Goodridge 3-AN hose with shop assembled swaged fittings on order.

    Neil

  9. #34
    NeilM is offline Member BMW E36 M3 Expert
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    Here's how the basic layout works:

    One end of a length of 3-AN hose attaches to the pump using an M10 banjo fitting. The M10x1.0 banjo bolt screws right in to replace the original bleed nipple. The banjo fitting's stem is clocked to point about 45 degrees below horizontal and toward the front of the car. The hose loops downward, under the large round ABS connector and its bracket, then forward and back up vertically to its mounting bracket (my fingers in this photo):

    IMG_3238-sm.jpg

    Looping the hose down like this keeps it clear of the other brake plumbing in that area and also easily accommodates some variation in hose length, or of mounting location at the outboard end.

    The free end of the hose has a threaded bulkhead fitting into which the bleed nipple screws. The bulkhead fitting mounts to the crescent shaped bracket on the strut tower sheet metal where the ASC actuator used to be. If you still have ASC you could instead fab up a small L-shaped bracket for the bleeder assembly and bolt, rivet or tack weld it to the strut tower a couple of inches clockwise of the ASC bracket.

    IMG_3228-sm.jpg

    The above photo shows the prototype ABS bleeder hose assembled in the car. Note that for development purposes I have a user-assembled hose fitting at the bleeder end, since this allowed me to play with the hose length and fitting type. However for reliability the final version uses swaged Goodridge 3-AN hose and fittings, shop assembled by Pegasus (see https://www.pegasusautoracing.com/gr...pID=CUSTOMHOSE) and pressure tested.

    Here's the Bill of Material:

    PART NUMBER DESCRIPTION PRICE EA. QTY PRICE
    3260-3-INCH #3 Stainless Steel Braided PTFE Brake/Clutch Hose - per inch $0.38 10.5
    HE001-03P-000 -3 Swaged Hose End, 3AN Female Straight, Steel $7.59 1
    HE090-03P-000 -3 Swaged Hose End, 10mm Banjo Straight, Steel $12.99 1
    Custom hose assembly, crimped and tested $24.76
    3266-25 3AN Bulkhead Mount for 3/8-24 Bleeder Screw, Stainless Steel $21.49 1 $21.49
    3266-01 3/8-24 Short Bleeder Screw, 1.25" overall length $2.99 1 $2.99
    3266-CAP Bleeder Screw Protective Cap $1.69 1 $1.69
    3242-003 Banjo Bolt, 10mm x 1.00 Single, Short (20mm Shank) $6.19 1 $6.19
    3241-3/8 Soft Copper Crush Washer, 3/8 inch (or 10mm) ID $0.69 2 $1.38
    TOTAL $58.50

    Plus shipping, sales tax as applicable, etc.

    Note that you'll want to buy several extras of the crush washers. Trust me, you're certain to drop a couple into the bowels of the engine compartment, never to be seen again.

    If using the ASC actuator bracket for mounting you'll also need a couple of 10mm or ⅜" washers to sandwich the bracket, since its existing holes are quite a bit larger in diameter than the ⅜" bulkhead mount fitting. You'll also need a couple of ⅜"-24 hex nuts and a 10mm or ⅜"-24 split lock washer. Normally I'd be using Nylock nuts or jet nuts to secure the fitting to its mounting bracket, but because the nut has to be under the bracket and the adapter's thread is rather long, a lock washer turns out to be more practical.

    The 20mm shank banjo bolt shown could be a little longer, but the 25mm shank version (P/N 3242-041) is a bit too long and bottoms out in the pump before getting tight. I'm actually using the longer version, from which I ground off about 2mm in length for a custom fit.

    One last caveat: my pre-assembled hose assembly won't be delivered until later this week, so there's always the possibility of something unexpected due to the different fittings used compared to my hand assembled version. I'll update this post as necessary. (Note: Updated below)

    Update 6/29/18
    - Shortened hose length to 10.5" on BOM because of different dimensional stackup of swaged and adapter fittings compared to hand assembly fittings on prototype.
    - Deleted jet nut from BOM.
    - Updated cost total in BOM.
    - Updated note about need for additional ⅜"-24 hardware.

    Neil
    Last edited by NeilM; 06-29-2018 at 10:02 AM.

  10. #35
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    Great stuff here!

    Coincidentally, we finished the hardline in my car yesterday.

    This is basically the kit we're going to offer to the community. This is version 1.0 with some changes to the final hard line layout before we start mass production.












  11. #36
    NeilM is offline Member BMW E36 M3 Expert
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    Nice work!

    Way lower parts cost than my approach, with the trade-offs of the hex adapter piece and having to form a rather long piece of hard line and flare its ends.
    My trade-offs are exactly the opposite: you don't have to modify anything yourself, but those pieces and parts costs certainly do add up.

    I am curious about one thing. Did you consider routing your hard line to the ASC bracket/strut tower area instead? Seems as if your hard line would lend itself particularly well to that, with only 2 or 3 bends needed: one 90 deg forward from the port, the next 90 deg upward, and then any final tweaking needed to align the outboard end with the chosen mounting point.

    Either way the remote ABS pump bleeder is now a thoroughly solved problem. The real question is whether using it will solve the underlying brake system issues we're actually trying to fix. Let's hope...

    Neil
    Last edited by NeilM; 06-26-2018 at 11:33 AM.

  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by NeilM View Post
    Nice work!
    Thank you, kindly. It's taken us longer than I would have liked to get this done, but as hobbiests with jobs and kids it's to be expected.


    Quote Originally Posted by NeilM View Post
    Way lower parts cost than my approach, with the trade-offs of the hex adapter piece and having to form a rather long piece of hard line and flare its ends. .
    Totally. Our goal was to try and make it as OEM as possible with the minimal amount of parts possible. Part of that meant bubble flaring the hard line and reusing the OEM nipple from the ABS pump.


    Quote Originally Posted by NeilM View Post
    My trade-offs are exactly the opposite: you don't have to modify anything yourself, but those pieces and parts costs certainly do add up.
    I think your option is great, especially if they removed the ASC throttle actuator.


    Quote Originally Posted by NeilM View Post
    I am curious about one thing. Did you consider routing your hard line to the ASC bracket/strut tower area instead? Seems as if your hard line would lend itself particularly well to that, with only 2 or 3 bends needed: one 90 deg forward from the port, the next 90 deg upward, and then any final tweaking needed to align the outboard end with the chosen mounting point.
    Since we wanted this to work with existing equipment, we had to pick a spot for the adel clamp that could be accessible while doing brakes and not being something under load (like drilling the shock tower) so we chose the fender area.


    Quote Originally Posted by NeilM View Post
    Either way the remote ABS pump bleeder is now a thoroughly solved problem. The real question is whether using it will solve the underlying brake system issues we're actually trying to fix. Let's hope...
    I have a friend with a mushy pedal that wants one of our kits, so we'll see if that helps his problem. If his other braking components are in perfect working condition and we've gotten all the air out of the rest of the system, I would be confident in saying that this too will help solve his problem.



  13. #38
    NeilM is offline Member BMW E36 M3 Expert
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    I've made updates to my post #34 above based on the final hardware received and installed this week.

    Neil
    Last edited by NeilM; 06-29-2018 at 11:10 AM.

  14. #39
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    So for either kit, what all has to be removed to install? Reservoir, master cylinder, booster, all of the above?

    Trying to gauge how difficult this is. If pulling everything out anyway, might as well replace the booster etc.

  15. #40
    NeilM is offline Member BMW E36 M3 Expert
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    Quote Originally Posted by 5speed300 View Post
    So for either kit, what all has to be removed to install? Reservoir, master cylinder, booster, all of the above?

    Trying to gauge how difficult this is. If pulling everything out anyway, might as well replace the booster etc.
    You don't have to remove the ABS pump, the master cylinder or the booster, but the brake fluid needs to be drained and its reservoir has to come off. You also need to disconnect and tuck aside the 3 large round electrical connectors inboard of the fuse box, then unclip the connectors' mounting bracket, remove the locking rings for the fixed connectors and tuck those aside. The round electrical connector at the ABS pump is also disconnected. Other than pulling its lid the fuse box also stays in place.

    Once you've done those things, access to the ABS pump's bleed nipple port isn't too bad. For some perspective on access, here's a picture showing a ¼" drive ratchet and socket on the original bleed nipple.

    IMG_3226-sm.JPG

    (I actually found that a long-handled ⅜" drive ratchet with the handle pointing upward worked better.)

    Clearly if you were thinking of replacing the booster and/or the master cylinder anyway, now would be the time to do that. But it's not necessary to remove them otherwise.

    Neil
    Last edited by NeilM; 07-03-2018 at 08:25 AM.

  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by 5speed300 View Post
    So for either kit, what all has to be removed to install? Reservoir, master cylinder, booster, all of the above?

    Trying to gauge how difficult this is. If pulling everything out anyway, might as well replace the booster etc.
    Now that I've done this quite a few times and did the actual ABS bleeder nipple removal a couple weeks ago with a friend, I documented the install process for the instructions we'll include with the kit.

    Our approach was slightly different than Neil's, but I like how thorough he was.

    Once we had clear access I had my friend pull the nipple and then I plugged it with my left hand thumb. We were quick to minimize air getting into the pump. At that point, he got the line set and lined up with my thumb. Once he was ready, I moved my hand out of the way and he set the line and brake flare nut.

    We just bled the system normally after that to remove any air we introduced. It was a very small bubble when we bled it after.

    Here are the steps we use to access the ABS bleeder:
    • Disconnect the wiring harness from the Fuel Tank Breather Valve located on a bracket next to the Intake Manifold
    • Disconnect the wiring harness attached to the MAF
    • Disconnect the wiring harness attached to the Cruise Control Actuator located behind the Driver's Side Headlight
    • Gently pull the disconnected harness back and out of the way. We often drape it behind the hood shock and let it rest over the fender
    • Loosen the two M10 nuts connected to the airbox holding the Cruise Control Actuator
    • Lift the Cruise Control Actuator up and gently rest it above the firewall next to the Passenger Wiper Arm
    • Locate the three large diameter wiring connectors next to the fuse box
    • Twist each of the three connectors counter-clockwise to loosen
    • Lift the three connectors of the wiring harness up and out of the way. The hood shock makes for a good resting place for these too
    • Using a small Flat Head Screwdriver, gently pry/lift up on the two tabs located between the Wiring Harness Bracket and Fuse Box
    • Gently wiggle and lift the Wiring Harness Bracket up to disconnect it then and relocated it close to the windshield to make room (at this time we recommend a small bungee attached the wiper blade to keep it out of your way)
    • Disconnect the wiring harness from the ASC Throttle Actuator
    • Gently squeeze the sides of the ASC Throttle Actuator connector and pull up while wiggling to disconnect
    • Remove the ASC Throttle Actuator by removing the two M10 bolts
    • Locate the ABS Wiring Harness Connector attached to the ABS Pump beneath the Brake Master Cylinder
    • Reach below the Brake Master Cylinder and twist the large 4" ABS Wiring Harness Connector towards the Driver's Side Fender
    • Gently push the ABS Wiring Harness Connector down towards the firewall into the space to make room
    • Now that you have enough room, locate the ABS Bleeder Nipple on the ABS Pump itself. It should be closer to the firewall and on the driver's side of the pump
    • Using an 11mm wrench, break the ABS Bleeder Nipple loose by rotating it an eighth of a turn towards the front of the vehicle
    Last edited by golgo13; 07-03-2018 at 03:46 PM.

  17. #42
    NeilM is offline Member BMW E36 M3 Expert
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    I’m impressed! It did occur to me that fitting the remote bleeder just might be possible with the reservoir in place, but I also knew that brake fluid would drain out from the ABS pump’s port under gravity during the R&R process and so preferred to avoid that.

    I had a couple of unrelated reasons for draining and removing the reservoir anyway, so went that route.

    Neil

  18. #43
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    This is awesome! I like Neil's placement of the bleeder nipple but like golgo13's hardline and overall cost. (btw, still have the original NES and game cartridge )

  19. #44
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    Haven't forgotten about this, it's just on hold as I'm between jobs currently.

  20. #45
    NeilM is offline Member BMW E36 M3 Expert
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    Quote Originally Posted by NeilM View Post
    Either way the remote ABS pump bleeder is now a thoroughly solved problem. The real question is whether using it will solve the underlying brake system issues we're actually trying to fix. Let's hope...

    Neil
    Quote Originally Posted by golgo13 View Post
    I have a friend with a mushy pedal that wants one of our kits, so we'll see if that helps his problem. If his other braking components are in perfect working condition and we've gotten all the air out of the rest of the system, I would be confident in saying that this too will help solve his problem.
    I've determined to my (dis)satisfaction that it has not solved mine.

    While my ABS pump remote bleeder retrofit is entirely functional, the underlying problem remains: mushy/sinking brake pedal. And that's despite a new brake booster and master cylinder. Logically this leaves only the original ABS pump as the culprit. At some point I'll swap in the spare, but right now I'm short of time and tired of dicking around with messy brake fluid.

    Neil

  21. #46
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    I have swapped master/booster with new units and despite a perfect bleed I also still have a sinking/first pump soft pedal (second pump firms it right up), brakes work great after a tap but the search continues. Im going to source another 95 ABS pump as well but first will install the S54 sucking jet pump / booster vac assist thing d/t ITB/air injection rail on S54 motors which my car doesn't have in place. Could it be caliper design? Ive read some not so glowing reviews of knock-back type feeling with Stoptech calipers which my car has F+R despite being brand new....ugh.

  22. #47
    NeilM is offline Member BMW E36 M3 Expert
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    Quote Originally Posted by SamGrant951 View Post
    Could it be caliper design? Ive read some not so glowing reviews of knock-back type feeling with Stoptech calipers which my car has F+R despite being brand new....ugh.
    That's an interesting question. In my case I'd say that the answer is no, since the brake pedal continues to sink (slowly) all the way to the floor under pressure. Knock-back should result in some light travel as pad to rotor clearances are taken up, but then a hard limit. Note that you can get anti knock-back springs for Stop-Techs, see https://www.zeckhausen.com/catalog/i..._217_7351_7353.

    However I would add that I get some tapered pad wear with the Stop-Techs, which gives a similar effect to knock-back. When I remember I'll flip the pads between events in order to equalize wear.

    Neil
    96 M3 — 4-wheel Stop-Techs

  23. #48
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    Read this thread...I tried it on my car and it made a noticeable difference. I pinned the pedal for 24hrs with a jackstand wedged under the seat mount.

    https://www.s2ki.com/forums/s2000-un...-lines-969691/
    Last edited by jayjaya29; 08-08-2018 at 03:04 PM.

  24. #49
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    Very interesting. I'm going to have to give this a shot
    Quote Originally Posted by jayjaya29 View Post
    Read this thread...I tried it on my car and it made a noticeable difference. I pinned the pedal for 24hrs with a jackstand wedged under the seat mount.

    https://www.s2ki.com/forums/s2000-un...-lines-969691/
    Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk

  25. #50
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    My pedal is currently pinned.

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