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Thread: Is it time to replace my starter? - solved

  1. #1
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    Is it time to replace my starter? - solved

    First off, thanks to everyone on these forums for your assistance in keeping the E32 alive!

    Problem: Car has been starting "funny" for a couple months now. Occasionally I would get a longer crank with start but mostly it would roar to life immediately first turn. This has quickly devolved over the last week into a long sluggish crank that would eventually start the vehicle with an initial rough idle and CEL neither lasting over thirty seconds. A couple days ago the vehicle would not start, lights , accessories, etc all functioned but not a hint of cranking, sluggish or otherwise. Thinking it was a battery issue, I was able to successfully jumpstart the car. After work I was able to sluggish start the car without assistance.

    I had a similar issue with my previous vehicle, a 1996 Geo Prizm (sorry), which was ultimately solved by a new battery.

    I looked at my BMW battery and it is not even a year old. Multimeter reads in the 10v range, and using the unlocked OBC test #9 reads a healthy 13.5ish. I'd heard that the alternators voltage regulator could wear down and wreak havok with electrical gremlins. Replaced it and same story this morning. Car doesn't crank, click or ding.

    I read on the forums and heard at AutoZone that if you tap a bad starter/alternator with a wrench good things can happen. Sure enough car gets a sluggish crank and start.

    Am I correct with my diagnosis of a bad starter? Any other tests I should do with the multimeter or unlocked OBC? Also, what is the difference between the RING and ROD starters on real oem? http://www.realoem.com/bmw/enUS/show...diagId=12_1585

    Thanks as always for the assistance!

  2. #2
    Join Date
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    11/88 E32 750iL+98 E36M3
    What you show there in the link to realoem as ring or rod starter is an ignition coil (probably a typing error as you were in starter mood). There are ring and round type, both can be used, best is to use the same as installed now, so no problem with installation.
    I have some round type new on stock from Bosch and my offer is in the E34 classifieds. But maybe local supply is faster.

    Where did you measure the 10V with the multimeter? Directly at the battery? That is quite low. Maybe you can ask a shop to make a load test for the battery. Reading volt only with a multimeter does not tell us moch about a battery health.
    But 13.5ish is fine.
    Did you check the 2 fusible links? 1 goes directly to the e-box, E32Fan has described here how to check it on the diagnosis port https://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/s...sible+link+pin
    "shogun always reminds us that Fusible Link A can go intermittent and kill power to the the DME box. You can conveniently check this at your D100 Diagnostic Connector, pin 14. The voltage should be 12V at all times. If it is low when cranking, then Fusible A is your problem. "
    https://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/s...sible+link+pin

    Try to make a stomp test to see if you have any fault codes.
    My 11/88 starter failed years ago, the old ones had plastic internals and they were all broken, see my website for the pics , click fixes>>>in the index go to engine general>> Disassembly of 1988 750 starter - plastic planetary.

    Also check the electric stuff for the engine, without well functioning crankshaft position sensor for example it will have problems, distributor, distributor rotor.....

    Crankshaft position sensor 540 +/-10% Ohm between pin 1 and 2 http://www.e32-schrauber.de/bmw/s-kw-sensor.htm pin 1,2,3 are shown here http://www.e32-schrauber.de/bmw/date...or_Stecker.png

    Just today someone PMed me that his 750 was not starting, reason was: ground strap from engine near right engine mount to chassis was completely destroyed. No covering for it and unwind with debris build up. It had some rust from were it hadn't been changed since the first owner.
    Last edited by shogun; 01-17-2018 at 09:06 PM.
    Shogun tricks and tips for the E32 series are HERE!

  3. #3
    Join Date
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    90' 735iL, 90' 535i, 93'
    Thanks Shogun, got some more info on the situation. I hope my crank position sensor is good, just replaced it September. Could a bad engine ground wire cause premature battery failure?

    Got the battery tested at autozone last night and it failed, same story this morning at a location I trust a bit more. Battery is on the slow charger right now. Employee told me the battery was at zero, but I may have misunderstood him.

    Stomp test gave me the always bittersweet 1444. Also, when I arrived home last night battery was at 12v on the OBD #9 test. I decided to remove the battery from the car overnight and check the voltage in the morning, it read 9.5v. Even at the autozone this morning we watched the volts drop from 12.5 to near 10 in just a few seconds.

    Seems like the issue may be the battery, crossing my fingers that maybe the tire center has my battery on a magical slow charger. My local junkyard has a decent selection of refurbished batteries, im just not sure how difficult it will be to find a compatible one that fits under the seat properly. Other than that $150 for a new one isn't bad, but if my car is killing my battery it might not be the best idea to get the new one just yet.

    Any thoughts or advice are always greatly appreciated!

  4. #4
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    A bad ground can even cause no engine start.

    Fluke says: One of the most rampant electrical maladies showing up in automotive service bays today is the phenomenon known as voltage drop. Left unchecked, voltage drop causes countless unsolved electrical mysteries, especially when it infects the ground side of a circuit. It can also trick you into replacing parts that are not bad. The more connections and wiring a vehicle has, the more vulnerable the electrical system is to voltage drop.
    Symptoms of voltage drop
    Often confusing and contradictory, electrical voltage drop symptoms vary according to the circuit's job and the severity of the voltage drop.
    •inoperative electrical parts
    •sluggish, lazy electrical devices
    •erratic, intermittent devices
    •devices that work sluggishly or erratically during periods of high electrical loads
    •excessive radio interference or noises in the radio
    •damaged throttle or transmission cables or linkage
    •repeated throttle or transmission cable failures
    •damaged drivetrain parts
    •engine or transmission performance complaints
    •no-starts or hard starts
    •high sensor or computer voltages
    •erratic engine or transmission computer performance
    •false trouble codes in the memory of any on-board computer
    •premature or repeated A/C compressor clutch failure.
    http://www.fluke.com/fluke/uses/comu...agnosevoltdrop

    "Easily 50 percent of an old car’s electrical problems can be traced to bad grounds,” Zitren said. “Corrosion, rodent damage, previous ‘fixes’ and simply overloading the system are other issues we see on a daily basis.”
    http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/...r03-story.html

    Every electrical component in you car, even a light bulb, has to have a negative and a positive connection to the battery for it to work. The negative pole (-) of your battery is connected to the chassis of your vehicle, and this is the ground you are referring to.
    Lets say that you have a lightbulb in your car. For this lightbulb to energize (turn ON), it must be connected to both the positive and the ground side of your vehicle. Remember that the negative pole is connoted to the chassis of you vehicle, and that this chassis is the "ground" side. So, one lead or wire is connected to the positive side of the battery, and the other lead is connected to the vehicle's chassis. However, since the metallic frame (ribs, etc.) of your vehicle is grounded to the chassis, you can have grounding points throughout the vehicle. Even the motor is grounded to the chassis via a grounding strap. The electricity that powers all of the electrical components in your vehicle travels out the positive side of the battery, through each electrical component, then through the chassis and ground points, back into the battery through the negative pole.

    Battery state of charge https://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/a...8&d=1327893724
    Last edited by shogun; 01-18-2018 at 09:56 PM.
    Shogun tricks and tips for the E32 series are HERE!

  5. #5
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    So how would one go about tracing a bad ground?

  6. #6
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    Shogun tricks and tips for the E32 series are HERE!

  7. #7
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    My friends at the tire center and autozone were able to verify that my battery is in good shape. My OBC test #9 still shows the volts drop faster than should be normal with the engine off, key on. With the engine running voltage is normal. Haven't tested the starter yet but I don't suspect that it is the issue.

    After reading shoguns comments, and other similar cases on the forum I highly believe that it is a ground issue. Especially considering I just fixed a power steering, water pump and transmission fluid leak which were all located in the vicinity of where I believe the grounds are. But I'm not exactly sure where the main engine ground(s) are located. If any one has any pics it would really help me out.

    Much thanks!

  8. #8
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    on the 750 right side engine bay (passenger side) from engine mount to chassis http://bmwe32.masscom.net/sean750/en...ldM70/Dsc01378[1].jpg
    Remove the plastic splash guard under engine, then you have access from below

    12 Ground cable L=380MM 1 12421737755 http://www.realoem.com/bmw/enUS/show...diagId=12_0333
    check the ground cable from battery to chassis ground http://www.justparts.com/Auto_Parts/...37755/24033490
    passenger side under passenger rear seat there is a cover, remove that, there is another cover to be removed and then you can see the bolts, no need to lift the seat, see pics here, scroll down
    http://www.ow.no/index.php?option=co...d=26&Itemid=13
    Last edited by shogun; 01-20-2018 at 09:23 PM.
    Shogun tricks and tips for the E32 series are HERE!

  9. #9
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    I checked my negative battery cable ground and all was good (I'd wondered what was behind that panel).

    Main engine ground was toast though. The rubber coating was cracked and underneath was some nice green copper wire. I cleaned it up with a wire brush and was able to get some stability in my OBC #9 test as well as a confident start (slight lag).

    Got a replacement wire from autozone and drove around with it for about 20 minutes. Afterwards I was able to get a solid 12v reading from the OBC #9 engine off/radio on. Started the engine again, let it run for a minute and watched the volts again with the engine off. Dropped from 12v to 10v but I think that has more to do with the power required to start the vehicle and me not actually driving it.

    Took a short drive to get breakfast and afterwards the car would not start. Same symptoms as I was originally having, no crank/start. Tapping the starter or alternator did nothing this time, volts read 10.5 at the OBC and at the battery with multimeter. Not really knowing what else to do I disconnected my battery and tested it with the multimeter and what do you know 12.5v. I waited a couple minutes to reattach the battery and naturally the vehicle starts up first try.

    At this point I am gratefully perplexed and immediately check my fuse box upon returning home to find a busted AC fuse. I'm not exactly sure that this has solved my issue and I will update as needed.

    Other than that are there any major grounds in the drivers side engine bay? I had quite a few fluid leaks that could possibly be contributing to my overall issue.

    Thanks as always!
    Last edited by chazsandiego; 01-20-2018 at 05:59 PM.

  10. #10
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    Here is the ETM for a 1990 E32 http://shark.armchair.mb.ca/~dave/BMW/e32/e32_90.pdf
    from page 0672-00 shows ground distribution
    there you see all the ground points, write them down, then go to component location charts and component location views, there are the infos where it is and under views also the pics
    for example X167 is LH front of engine compartment, ahead of wheel well, see page....
    and so on
    Shogun tricks and tips for the E32 series are HERE!

  11. #11
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    Much appreciated! Issue is definitely intermittent at this point. I'm gonna continue to check for any soiled ground wires.

    A couple days back I traced a wire from the alternator to what i believe is the oil pan. The wire was protected by a cover held in place with three screws. The cover was filled with a soupy mixture of dirt and fluids. The wire fed into a rubber boot but I was fearful to attempt removing because I was unsure of what it was.

    I am also going to check for anything draining on my system, may even swap out this ignition switch with the original. Luckily I am starting an automotive electronics class this semester and I'll have plenty of extra homework.

    Also I am going to pull the alternator today and have it bench tested. I was playing on a red 735i at the junkyard yesterday and noticed that the solenoid seems to be held to the starter by three screws? If this is the case it may be easier to swap the starter solenoid rather than the whole starter.

    I'd also forgotten that awhile back I had to unhook my driver's side power lock because of an issue with the latch mechanism. Probably just a coincidence though.
    Last edited by chazsandiego; 01-22-2018 at 12:25 PM.

  12. #12
    Join Date
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    Problem solved! Got a new starter from autozone. Trying to get off just the solenoid without removing the starter was not possible without killing the screws.

    For anyone wondering removing the starter on the 735 was very easy because of the smaller engine in a space capable of holding a V12.

    Using a few ratchet extensions and wobble I was able to reach the difficult top bolt that normally requires you to remove the expansion tank and other hoses. Starting at the front of the engine, I was able to thread the socket and extensions through the mid part of the engine along the coolant hoses (which can be carefully pulled aside) directly to the bolt. The lower bolt was easier to get to and did not require my ridiculous looking extension. From there I was able to manipulate the old starter (carefully) through the jungle of hoses and wires. Same process for installing the new one.

    Thanks again to all for all the assistance!

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