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Thread: Setting the M3 up for NASA TT, since TTC is now gone. Supercharger and temps?

  1. #1
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    Setting the M3 up for NASA TT, since TTC is now gone. Supercharger and temps?

    So I've got a bit of a dilemma, my car was (is?) prepped to the limit of NASA TTC. With the rules change they just did, TTC is basically deleted. For me to try and fit into the new TT5 class, I'd have to remove a bunch of power, add a restrictor plate, retune and add a bunch of weight.

    None of that is really attractive to me, so that means trying to set the car up for TT4, which means adding hp. I just did the head gasket on my current S52, so the obvious answer of S54 swap it doesn't really work for me money wise. Timing is everything and if I'd known about the rules change I wouldn't have done the head gasket on the S52, I would've just done the S54. Oh well.

    So that leaves what I currently have sitting on my garage floor as an option, which is a Dinan/RMS Vortech aftercooled supercharger system. By swapping pullies I can tailor the boost/power level to whatever class I want, a little boost for TT4 or a bit more boost and run in TT3.

    What gives me pause about this plan is temperature control. I track up at altitude, the air is hot and thin here, its much harder to disperse water temps here than at sea level. Adding hp adds heat and having an additional heat exchanger in front of the radiator doesn't help. My cooling system is new, CSF radiator, Spal fan, Stewart water pump, new front pusher fan, OEM Euro E36 oil cooler. I've got a TrackSpec Motorsports hood vent ready to go in.

    Question is, can I control the temps on track with the supercharger? Or just suck it up, stay NA and be way down on power? I've successfully run my supercharged E46 M3 up here, just not sure how the E36 will handle it. Thoughts?
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    I think if you run the vents, box the radiator so that all airflow in the front has to go through it you should be OK. Are you still running AC? Pulling the condenser and pusher fan will help with airflow. Jobusch has a SC on his S52... no AC/condenser. Not sure how long of a session he can run as most of last year was spent on the bench for him.

  3. #3
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    Hey John,

    I do still have AC installed. I know the car will run cooler on track without it, but I still drive the car around town some and AC is awfully nice to have in the summer!
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    I supercharged a 330ci and ran it on the track. It’s manageable as long as it is built for reliability. I think 6-7 psi would be ok. Don’t be an idiot like me an push 11psi on a stock M54.

    Your issue will be intake temps and heat soak. I would lose a ton of power by then end of a session. As long as your first lap is the fast lap, should be OK.


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  5. #5
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    Was your system aftercooled? So huge power loss even with that?
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    You should be good for the 15 minute TT sessions with the hood venting and radiator ducting.

    The fast guys are usually only out for three or four laps, beyond that the tires are falling off.

    Im running tt4 with a fbo s50 265max hp at 2900#

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    Why not take weight out of the car to get it down to the needed power to weight ratio? Ran all last year in TT4 and ST4 with an s50 and was competitive enough with that to take 3rd in ST4 at Western States Nationals out of 15 cars. Bottom end on that motor was all stock, stock cams, intake, chip, and was pretty perfect for my weight at 234 avg HP. Keep it simple.

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    Choke an S54 to suit.

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    What's your avg WtP under TT5 rules? I didn't think a car near max TTC limit of 14.5:1 would be pushed of TT5 (14.0:1) especially for an e36 where you're not subject to the A arm penalties.
    Last edited by Dubbedown; 01-17-2018 at 11:38 PM.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by DocWyte View Post
    Was your system aftercooled? So huge power loss even with that?
    The system had a laminova water to air cooler and alcohol injection. Yes, I would guess that I was losing at least a second a lap by the end.


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  11. #11
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    jon, the car is still a street/track car. I can't really take anymore weight out of it now without crossing way over that line and making it a gutted track car.

    Dubbedown, I'm WAY over the limit for TT5, especially since they make me take HP penalties for things I just took points for with the old TTC rules. I'd have to add weight and lose power to stay in TT5, neither of which I really want to do.

    badmonkey, already spent the money doing the head gasket on this S52, don't have the money to S54 swap it now. If I'd known about the rules changes I wouldn't have done the head gasket on the S52, I would've just S54 swapped it.
    Last edited by DocWyte; 01-18-2018 at 08:55 AM.
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by DocWyte View Post
    badmonkey, already spent the money doing the head gasket on this S52, don't have the money to S54 swap it now. If I'd known about the rules changes I wouldn't have done the head gasket on the S52, I would've just S54 swapped it.
    A used S54 is about $1000 more than a good S52 from what I’ve seen listed. Figure another $800 for rod bearings, gaskets and VANOS rebuild parts.

    Not sure what else you need to swap an S54 into an E36 though.


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  13. #13
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    bigjae, go to the E36 M3 forum here and read a few of the S54 swap threads. It's a HUGE and expensive job to properly S54 swap an E36. Even doing the work yourself if can easily cost $10k depending on what/how much integration you want.

    The motor bolts right in, but the wiring is an enormous task.
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  14. #14
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    Setting the M3 up for NASA TT, since TTC is now gone. Supercharger and temps?

    Quote Originally Posted by DocWyte View Post
    bigjae, go to the E36 M3 forum here and read a few of the S54 swap threads. It's a HUGE and expensive job to properly S54 swap an E36. Even doing the work yourself if can easily cost $10k depending on what/how much integration you want.

    The motor bolts right in, but the wiring is an enormous task.
    Got it. Wasn’t the Euro S52 321 hp? I believe it had individual throttle bodies and less emissions restrictions. Not sure what else is different. That would get you close to S54 power.

    The better part is there are a lot more upgrades available for the S52 and would likely be cheaper. Maybe just build the motor to the Euro spec.

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    Last edited by bigjae1976; 01-18-2018 at 10:25 AM.


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  15. #15
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    I confess I don't know much about swapping in the Euro motor. My feeling is the S54 is a better motor and much easier to get ahold of here. Additionally there are enough people who've done the S54 swap that the road is fairly well mapped out at this point...
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  16. #16
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    Well, I'd have to pull the front splitter and the rear wing (which is a PITA since it's the OEM ltw wing) plus the brakes. Then run a restrictor plate/detune/add weight.

    I certainly could do it, but it doesn't appeal to me at all. Not a whole lot of fun to remove mods and power, then add weight.
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  17. #17
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    You've been dealt a shit sandwich. I'd echo the sell S52 buy S54 thought IF you are not looking for OE integration. If you don't want cruise, AC, or emissions compliance you can do a swap pretty quickly as the wiring options are plug and play now. Figure $6k for engine+wiring, less if you find good deals, more if you're unlucky. Selling the S52 should net you $2500ish. If you DO want all the trimmings....lots of $ and time.Alternatively, just run as is without changing anything for the year. It'll be uncompetitive, so what, after year one of the rule changes they may implement some "oh we didn't think this through...." emergency changes. Might be wishful thinking on my part. Maybe do cams? The SC could be good but seems like a lot of potential issues to me.

    I had pretty much decided to go TT3 with mine and then found out about the tire section width templates for 2018, which has thrown things out of whack a fair amount. I'm probably just going to drive it as is, overweight and under tired/powered for this year, do one lap with it next year, and then go wild on the TT conversion.
    Last edited by Bimmerman535i; 01-18-2018 at 01:06 PM.
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  18. #18
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    When I did the head gasket I added a set of Schrick 264/256 cams, as well as a Riot Racing big bore throttle body. I haven't dynoed the car yet, (I really need to) but I wouldn't be surprised to see it making a peak of mid 250's rwhp or more. Even before, with stock cams/throttle body it made 238rwhp, at the top of the limit for TTC.

    I'd love to do an S54, but I know myself, I like things to be like factory. Since the car is licensed for the street, (and I want to keep it that way), that means following through on making it smog legal (not as hard as what you did in Cali, but I'd still do most of it) and getting the AC, cruise, etc working.

    As you point out, that's what takes the effort and money to make happen. Honestly since my car is already OBD2 I wouldn't bother to take it through the referee process. I just wouldn't tell the smog people I swapped in an S54, I doubt they'd notice the difference. As long as the readiness monitors read properly on the OBD2 scan and it blew cleanly on the dyno they'd be happy. Not like on my old LSx swapped 944 Turbo, getting that car to pass the Colorado emissions referee's was a PITA!

    So right now it seems like my choices are to spend more money and install the supercharger system and either run very low boost to not make more than 290rwhp average for TT4 (or more boost and a 355rwhp average for TT3) or leave it as is and just focus on having fun and improving myself as a driver. At which point I have a decision to make about keeping the supercharger system or selling it....
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  19. #19
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    I think this is what I would do:

    1. get the car weighed... for real
    2. get the car dynoed
    3. calculate where you are and where you need to be HP/WT and Points
    4. drop a restrictor plate in and get the power down

    You've got a lot of 'unknowns' in your post above. Without knowing the true values for the calculation, you can't really know the answer. However, seriously, it takes me 10-15 minutes to swap my restrictor plate in / out. You can run whatever tune you are on and bring the power down safely with the plate. Probably take you 2-3 more dyno runs to get dialed-in with the proper size plate. Maybe less if one of the GTS2 guys helps you.
    Last edited by John in Houston; 01-18-2018 at 03:07 PM.

  20. #20
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    The weight I know. Played on Hanks scales one NASA race. Car weighs 3200lbs with me in it with 1/8 tank of gas, minimum base weight before I have to take points for weight is 3175lbs. I can ballast up from there with fuel.

    What I don't know is how much HP I'm making right now. Got to hear about the tune, I assumed I'd need to retune based on whatever restrictor plate I had to run. Where did you get them from?

    In playing with the TT5 car classification form, if I weigh 3250lbs I can't make more than 220rwhp average. Adding 50lbs to 3300lbs only gets me another 4whp. This is going to be one large restrictor plate given the car made 238rwhp peak before adding cams and the bbtb....
    Last edited by DocWyte; 01-18-2018 at 04:02 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DocWyte View Post
    The weight I know. Played on Hanks scales one NASA race.
    No. I mean accurate scales. Don't get me started on the scales at the track. Got DQd for being 'light'. Had never been less than 50lbs over in the last two years. Nothing changed on the car. Get a real weight at SCR or MAC on a level surface where the scales are zeroed, level and haven't been bouncing around in a truck for the last 4 years without a re-cert.

    What I don't know is how much HP I'm making right now. Got to hear about the tune, I assumed I'd need to retune based on whatever restrictor plate I had to run. Where did you get them from?
    You shouldn't need a retune. MAF, O2 sensors and computer all compensate for the change. Kasten just dropped it in (his car is bone stock) with no tune. zero issues. Bimmerworld has a kit of plates.

    In playing with the TT5 car classification form, if I weigh 3250lbs I can't make more than 220rwhp average. Adding 50lbs to 3300lbs only gets me another 4whp. This is going to be one large restrictor plate given the car made 238rwhp peak before adding cams and the bbtb....
    Mine was at 248 rwhp. Largest restrictor (smallest hole) brought it down to 202 rwhp average with no other changes. Car runs at 2976# with driver at 202 avg rwhp and 221 ftlbs.
    Last edited by John in Houston; 01-18-2018 at 04:24 PM.

  22. #22
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    OK, I've weighed it at MAC too, I have that in my records somewhere as well. I'll use that as my weight basis.

    Good to hear about the BW restrictor plates....
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  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by DocWyte View Post
    When I did the head gasket I added a set of Schrick 264/256 cams, as well as a Riot Racing big bore throttle body. I haven't dynoed the car yet, (I really need to) but I wouldn't be surprised to see it making a peak of mid 250's rwhp or more. Even before, with stock cams/throttle body it made 238rwhp, at the top of the limit for TTC.

    I'd love to do an S54, but I know myself, I like things to be like factory. Since the car is licensed for the street, (and I want to keep it that way), that means following through on making it smog legal (not as hard as what you did in Cali, but I'd still do most of it) and getting the AC, cruise, etc working.

    As you point out, that's what takes the effort and money to make happen. Honestly since my car is already OBD2 I wouldn't bother to take it through the referee process. I just wouldn't tell the smog people I swapped in an S54, I doubt they'd notice the difference. As long as the readiness monitors read properly on the OBD2 scan and it blew cleanly on the dyno they'd be happy. Not like on my old LSx swapped 944 Turbo, getting that car to pass the Colorado emissions referee's was a PITA!

    So right now it seems like my choices are to spend more money and install the supercharger system and either run very low boost to not make more than 290rwhp average for TT4 (or more boost and a 355rwhp average for TT3) or leave it as is and just focus on having fun and improving myself as a driver. At which point I have a decision to make about keeping the supercharger system or selling it....

    Schricks, big throttle body, and supercharger are far less factory than an S54...

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    I understand about the weight and your predicament DocWyte. It's a slippery slope when you go down the path of building a competitive car, but the reality is (and has been for awhile) that it is very difficult to have a car that will podium regularly, be comfortable to drive, and be easy on the wallet! I would look into the restrictor plates if I were you. When I ran GTS2, I think I ran a 42mm diameter plate to choke the motor down to around 200 HP - my S50 at that time peaked at 240 unrestricted. I made my own plates as I think the smallest Bimmerworld plate was 45mm and I'm cheap. I used lexan and a holesaw. The ECU adapts no problem - mine was/is OBD1 and I would suspect that the later ECU's would adapt just as well if not better. The funny thing about running it restricted is, you'll find yourself actually driving better, carrying more entry speed and not be as afraid of getting on throttle early and looping the car. 3/4 down the straights you'll notice your top speeds will be down a bit, but the s50/s52 motors do pretty well restricted - looking at the dynos you'll just see that the curve is flattened out a bit at the top. You'll also use less fuel! This is all to say that I would look towards running restricted in TTC if possible. Your wallet will thank you. As someone else also alluded, you never know if next year the rules will change again and the s54 gets restricted out of TT/ST4...stick with your s52 and have fun.

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    There are a lot of options but if it were me i'd cross anything S54 (just too expensive) and force induction (not reliable enough) off the list.

    Now, you're about where I am. Currently i'm running my car with a ton of stock (been demodding over the years) parts (stock swaybars, motor, exhaust) and have added ballast to weigh in at 3400lbs with me in the car. I'm doing this to stay in a class where a bunch of other E36s run (doing the same mods/weight) in order to have a good competitive group to run with. I think that's ultimately what matter most. It's soooooooooooooooooo sooo soooooo SOOO tempting to go buy more parts and make my car better/faster, but then i'd be by myself with faster and different cars and that wouldn't be fun. Being competitive is what's fun. It's dialed in weight balance wise and is still fun to drive. The best part is that keeping the car as-is really saves a lot of money. So now it all goes towards fresh R1-Ss which really drop the lap times.

    tldr: start with a stock car, add the best tires, add the best shocks, add ballast as necessary. Don't hold onto mods for sentimental value, demod that shit.

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