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Thread: Do the later N64b48 engines suffer from the valve stem seal failure?

  1. #1
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    Do the later N64b48 engines suffer from the valve stem seal failure?

    Curious, I bought an 07 Alpina B7 with 115k on it, thinking I may need to do the seals.

    I't not bad, but I have some misfire/fouling issues.

  2. #2
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    Valve stem seals don't cause misfires or fouling. Not that I've ever dealt with. They cause oil consumption and smoke from the tailpipes. And will kill the cats if it gets really bad.

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    Last edited by White94RX; 01-14-2018 at 12:23 PM.
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    But,, do the later engines suffer from the issue?

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    Yes, they all do. From N62 onwards.

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  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by White94RX View Post
    Yes, they all do. From N62 onwards.
    Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk

    Thank you.
    felt they did, but wanted to confirm.

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    Quote Originally Posted by White94RX View Post
    Yes, they all do. From N62 onwards.

    Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk
    ...also from N62 backwards - no engine is really immune to having failing valve stem seals. The rubber just gets old and hard, thus causing leakage...
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    I've never had an M62 or previous engine have valve stem seal issues. Maybe timing chain guide issues, but never valve stem seals. I've been fixing BMW's professionally for over 12 years. My mother has a '95 540i/6 with 225k on it. Doesn't burn any oil. She never has to add any oil, even going about 10k between changes (whatever the interval is on those things. She goes by the green bars in the cluster).
    Last edited by White94RX; 02-17-2018 at 09:26 AM.
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    Whitey94RX,

    Thanks as always for your extremely useful posts. I found a write up where they claim the idle smoke fro N62 engines can be from a vacume problem and a valve stem replacement avoided, see this link:

    https://www.reddit.com/r/BMW/comment...our_n62_44_v8/

    As a Demi-God of BMW repair, what do you think of this information? Did anyone try these fixes at the dealership?

    Aunt Jemima

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    Reddit is blocked at work. I'll have to check on my phone later.
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  10. #10
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    Whitey,
    Here you go, text from link:

    Puffs of white or blue smoke from your N62 4.4 V8? Misfire CEL's? Here's the definitive guide for fixing it on the cheap. self.BMW
    Submitted 3 years ago * by bobblerabl07 M Roadster, 16 i3 rEX, 06 X5 4.8is

    A note before we start. Some of this information was directly plagiarized from a smattering of old posts on sites like bimmerforum.com, x5outpost.com, and others. I have unfortunately long since lost the credit to the original authors of this information. I take no credit for the content of some of this. I’m only the guy that’s putting all of it together into a “here’s EXACTLY how to solve your problem” post. If anyone here is the original author of portions of this information, please let me know and I’ll be sure to credit you. All the diagrams I link to are credit of realoem.com (a fantastic site for all BMW owners)
    Introduction
    If you own a BMW 7 Series, 6 Series, X Series, or a number of other models manufactured sometime in the 2000’s with a 4.4, 4.6, or 4.8 Liter V8 (called the N62 Engine), there’s a good chance that you’re beginning to notice big puffs of white or blue smoke from the exhaust periodically after extended idle. Also, you may notice “shuddering” after a cold start, leading to a “Misfire” CEL. These issues may have the same root cause, and they can possibly be fixed for a few hundred dollars.
    I’m compiling this issue primarily because I've seen so many posts on a number of BMW forums where an owner takes a car with these symptoms to the dealership, and they walk out with new valve stem seals with out proper diagnosis.
    Let me be clear here: the issue of white smoke after extended idle ** May NOT** be due to valve seals, piston rings, or anything of the sort. It could be a design fault in the vacuum system, and it’s easily repaired. Unfortunately, some BMW dealers fleece customers into paying thousands of dollars in replacing valve stem seals and the like when that may not be the problem. Over the course of that big-money overhaul, the dealers will often ALSO replace the inexpensive gaskets and seals that were actually the problem. I'm not bashing the BMW dealerships as a whole here, but there are certainly those service shops that don't really listen to the specifics of the symptoms, and instead jump to an incorrect conclusion (and a $7,000 repair)
    If the stem seals were bad, your car would smoke all time, but especially after it had been sitting with the engine off for an extended period. HOWEVER, some of us only get puffs of smoke after idling for an extended time. We don't get smoke from the exhaust after the car has been sitting with the key off. (side note here: if your car does actually get puffs of smoke immediately after a cold start, your valve stem seals need to be replaced. Valve Stem seals CAN and DO go bad in these engines due to rubber hardening)
    Here's the in depth explanation of what may be going on: (again, most of the following was plagiarized)
    Combustion Engine Mechanics 101: A falling piston creates a vacuum in its combustion chamber. The intake valve opens, passing this vacuum state on to the intake manifold. The intake manifold would become a complete vacuum rather quickly if the plate on the throttle body remained closed. However, the throttle plate is typically open, to some extent, as it controls the air portion of the “air/fuel” mixture that keeps our combustion engines...combusting. The vacuum generated by the falling piston allows metered air to flow past the throttle body, through the intake manifold, and into the expanding combustion chamber. Beyond the throttle body is a tube connected to the Mass Air Flow (MAF) sensor. A sensor that constantly calculates the amount of air being pulled through the air filter, past the MAF sensor, past the throttle body, and into the intake manifold. The MAF is insanely accurate; to the point where using a throttle plate on a cable becomes a laughable, and turbulent, way to control the flow of air into the combustion chambers. Enter active intake and valve timing (for another time).
    But, the point of this story is to demonstrate that the throttle body, once the car is warm, is not really used to control the amount of air entering the combustion chambers but, instead, it is used to maintain a constant vacuum or “demand for air” from the MAF. It remains open most of the time, especially when the MAF sensor is telling it that it is drawing in a very specific amount of air. The tube between the MAF and the throttle body contains several possibilities for air to “leak,” unmetered, into the intake. This is a problem because the computer expects the specific quantity of air that the MAF told it to expect and any deviation will cause an imbalance in the “Air/Fuel” ratio…this imbalance chemical reaction leads to unreacted fuel being pushed out your exhaust…fuel that could have been propelling you forward (quickly!). The computer can try to compensate…but it cannot measure what it can neither detect nor predict. This source of unmetered air can be air entering through a disconnected or torn vacuum line, a loose hose clamp, or crack, on one of the intake tubes, or the CrankCase Ventilation (CCV) system.
    A lot of vehicles use a CCV system has a valve that is held closed at atmospheric pressure and only opens when internal pressure exceeds atmospheric pressure: the PRV is briefly pushed open, releasing the excess pressure from the crankcase, closing, and the mechanical process starts over. Essentially, BMW uses this system as well; however, BMW’s PRVs default to “open” at atmospheric pressure. This is significantly different because the system BMW uses requires a constant vacuum in order for the PRV to remain sealed; where a traditional system remains sealed until there is excessive pressure. Therefore, if the BMW system cannot establish a vacuum (due to a unmetered air entering the crankcase and/or intake); the PRV cannot close and it cannot prevent oil from entering the intake manifold. I assume BMW had an issue with the pressure generated by the alternative system and, instead, chose a system that requires there to be no pressure to be closed and the presence of any pressure is immediately escaped from the crankcase.
    BMW uses the intake’s vacuum to draw unmetered air out of the crankcase until the crankcase itself has so little pressure that the weight of the atmosphere can push the Pressure Regulating Valve (PRV) closed. This works great….unless there is a vacuum leak in the crankcase. The leak destroys the vacuum by equalizing the crankcase’s pressure with atmospheric pressure. The presence of atmospheric pressure, or any pressure, in the crankcase is enough overcome the PRV, releasing it to its default “open" position. This means that a crankcase vacuum leak allows unmetered air to flow past the PRVs and into the intake…it also means that splashing oil has an unobstructed path, through the same PRV and into your intake and combustion chambers! We typically only see a cloud of smoke after the car has been warmed up and sitting idle for a prolonged period of time. Why? A cold car starts in “open loop,” a startup sequence that runs more or less based on memory, rather than sensor input. After the car is warm and the thermostats start functioning, the car can enter “closed loop,” a state where the car runs based on its sensors and less so on memory. The smoke issue tends to arise when the car enters Closed Loop because the Open Loop operation, uses more fuel, more vacuum, etc.. The added vacuum created by Open Loop’s sensor-ignorant operation is typically enough to overcome a typical vacuum leak…allowing enough of a vacuum to exist that the PRV is pulled closed.
    Once the car enters Closed Loop operation, the throttle body relinquishes its control of the air flow to the active intake and valve timing. The finer tuned control of the air flow allows us to enjoy more power and better fuel efficiency…but this also means that it needs less air (and less fuel) to produce the same amount of power. Not needing as much air means that the throttle body doesn’t need to create as much of a vacuum…but less vacuum means that the crankcase vacuum leak can produce enough pressure to hold the PRV open. We typically only see a state of such low vacuum while at idle. Unfortunately for us, the weak vacuum is still high enough to draw oil into the intake; but not quite high enough to pull the oil around the active intake and into the combustion chambers; at least not until you push the accelerator. Everything behind you disappears…and not in the typical “this is why I bought the V8” euphoria but, rather, a “Go-go-gadget smokescreen” kinda way…the humiliation typically only reserved for those that are lame enough to use go-go-gadget references in their posts. When you hit the gas pedal: the vacuum gets stronger, PRV is held closed, and the oil that made its way into the intake is drawn up and around the active intake channels and directly into the combustion chambers.
    SIDE NOTE: The air entering the crankcase contains water vapor from the atmosphere. The PRV is the lone exit from the crankcase; it’s a very small opening leading to the intake manifold, the source of the vacuum. This tiny opening forces the water vapor and oil to mix before entering your intake...and some of it collects on the PRV itself. When it gets really cold, this cheese can freeze and seal the opening. The blow-by gases can create extreme pressure and in the crankcase, not being able to escape through the PRV nor through the tiny vacuum leak, the excessive pressure can cause the PRV to tear. When the PRV tears, you hear whistling as even more atmosphere is drawn into or blown out of the crankcase. At this point, you will need to replace the PRVs…but just replacing and cleaning the PRVs will not prevent the same situation from happening again. One would need to resolve the issue of how the air (and water vapor) is getting into the crankcase to begin with: a vacuum leak in the crankcase. The same issue, sometimes to a lesser extent, as the smoke cloud.
    CRAP, I'm out of room. The Fix is detailed on a post in this thread.











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    [–]bobblerabl07 M Roadster, 16 i3 rEX, 06 X5 4.8is[S] 3 points 3 years ago*
    Continued: Here's what you need to do about it:
    I bought all these parts from FCPEuro.com, but you can get them from a number of reputable vendors. They will cost you about $100.
    Part Description Part Number Qty FCP Euro Price
    BMW Camshaft Adjuster Seal 07119903596 1 $2.91
    BMW Camshaft Position Sensor O-Ring 12141748398 2 $2.20
    BMW Valve Cover Gasket Set Right 11127513194 1 $40.95
    BMW Camshaft Solenoid Gasket 11367513222 2 $6.16
    BMW Camshaft Solenoid Gasket 11367546379 2 $3.50
    BMW Brake Pressure Accumulator O-Ring 11667509080 1 $6.95
    BMW Crankcase Vent Valve 11127547058 2 $22.95
    BMW Timing Cover Gasket Right Upper 11147506424 1 $5.95
    Holy shit I just made a reddit graph!
    The mechanic must first replace both Crankcase Vent Valves (make SURE they do it for both banks of cylinders, there is one for cyls 1-4 and 1 for cyls 5-8. Not only must they replace them, but they must also do a decent job of cleaning out the stuck gunk on the valve covers near the CCV. If they don’t clean it our well, the CCV will just plug again.
    The CCV's are the two #13's on this diagram
    http://imgur.com/Uu8f7LZ
    Next, all the VANOS seals and other seals must be replaced. I broke down the part numbers and locations for your mechanic as follows:
    Part #07119903596 is #14 on this diagram, replace it.
    http://imgur.com/RP5Dq92
    Part #12141748398 is #7 on this diagram and must be replaced
    http://imgur.com/Fi15PCY
    Part #11367513222is #9 on this diagram and must be replaced Part #11367546379 is #8 on this diagram and must also be replaced
    http://imgur.com/Ob7Wt1x
    Part #11667509080 is #2 on this diagram and must be replaced
    http://imgur.com/zp0404P
    Finally, you'll also need to replace #2 on this diagram (part #11147506424)
    http://imgur.com/4dcf2rK
    While the engine is apart, it may also be advantageous to clean out the Idle Air Control system. Here's a great tutorial on how to do that
    For me (and the few others that have given me feedback), this fix has worked. If it works for you, please let me know. If not, tell your mechanic to continue to diagnose for vacuum leaks in somewhere in the system.





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  11. #11
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    Wow, that was kind of a mess. The problem with his logic is a little flawed though.

    He fails to realize that the throttle body on these engines stays completely open 100% of the time. There is almost ZERO vacuum in the intake manifold at idle. Hence the need for a mechanical vacuum pump to run your power brake booster. So it's not constantly sucking air into the engine at idle. Second thing, is that when there is a real vacuum leak, the DME will add more and more fuel to offset the additional air. The engine "adapts" to the extra air (hence resetting adaptations, after major repairs). Once this value goes outside a set range, it will turn on the check engine light, and set mixture too lean fault codes. Which honestly, are rare on these engines. On an M54 for example (think E46 and E39 6 cyl), mixture too lean fault codes are so freaking common. There's so many places they leak air from: intake boots, DISA valves, the crank case vent valve, and its 4 connected hoses, etc. The N62 really doesn't have any places that leak air commonly. When I get a lean fault code on an N62, 99% of the time the crank case vent valves (or pressure regulating valves, whatever you want to call them) are torn. The rubber diaphragms are ripped causing the vacuum leak.

    So basically, his repairs might work every now and then, or might push the issue off, I can't really say 100%. All I know is that I've done more valve stem seal jobs on N62's and N63's than I can ever count. And it fixed them, every single time. And on top of that, I don't even replace all the gaskets and seals that guy says to. The vanos solenoid O-rings are a thick rubber o-ring, and they don't leak. Same with the cam sensor O-rings. I never replace either of those. Nor do I replace the CCV valves when I do the seal jobs.

    Any other questions?
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    Damn, Whitey!

    You're not the BMW Demi-God, you're the BMW God! Whatever they are paying you, it isn't enough... I wish my doctors, lawyers and accountant showed your intelligence, dedication AND communication skills! Especially the communication skills.

    Stay groovy and let me know if you are ever up in Chi-town, I would love to buy lunch!

    Jemima



    Quote Originally Posted by White94RX View Post
    Wow, that was kind of a mess. The problem with his logic is a little flawed though.

    He fails to realize that the throttle body on these engines stays completely open 100% of the time. There is almost ZERO vacuum in the intake manifold at idle. Hence the need for a mechanical vacuum pump to run your power brake booster. So it's not constantly sucking air into the engine at idle. Second thing, is that when there is a real vacuum leak, the DME will add more and more fuel to offset the additional air. The engine "adapts" to the extra air (hence resetting adaptations, after major repairs). Once this value goes outside a set range, it will turn on the check engine light, and set mixture too lean fault codes. Which honestly, are rare on these engines. On an M54 for example (think E46 and E39 6 cyl), mixture too lean fault codes are so freaking common. There's so many places they leak air from: intake boots, DISA valves, the crank case vent valve, and its 4 connected hoses, etc. The N62 really doesn't have any places that leak air commonly. When I get a lean fault code on an N62, 99% of the time the crank case vent valves (or pressure regulating valves, whatever you want to call them) are torn. The rubber diaphragms are ripped causing the vacuum leak.

    So basically, his repairs might work every now and then, or might push the issue off, I can't really say 100%. All I know is that I've done more valve stem seal jobs on N62's and N63's than I can ever count. And it fixed them, every single time. And on top of that, I don't even replace all the gaskets and seals that guy says to. The vanos solenoid O-rings are a thick rubber o-ring, and they don't leak. Same with the cam sensor O-rings. I never replace either of those. Nor do I replace the CCV valves when I do the seal jobs.

    Any other questions?

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by White94RX View Post
    I've never had an M62 or previous engine have valve stem seal issues. Maybe timing chain guide issues, but never valve stem seals. I've been fixing BMW's professionally for over 12 years. My mother has a '95 540i/6 with 225k on it. Doesn't burn any oil. She never has to add any oil, even going about 10k between changes (whatever the interval is on those things. She goes by the green bars in the cluster).
    I have had to replace them on both high mileage and low mileage M70 and M73 engines for the past decade and a half.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AuntJemima View Post
    Damn, Whitey!

    You're not the BMW Demi-God, you're the BMW God! Whatever they are paying you, it isn't enough... I wish my doctors, lawyers and accountant showed your intelligence, dedication AND communication skills! Especially the communication skills.

    Stay groovy and let me know if you are ever up in Chi-town, I would love to buy lunch!

    Jemima

    Thanks buddy!

    As for the M70 and M73, I can't comment really. We just don't see enough of those engines any more. Even 12 years ago, when I got my start, we only saw a couple here and there.
    ASE and BMW Master Certified Technician

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    I just deleted my post here 😠, dont know how to attach picture!
    However, hello to u all!
    Im new here and was reading posts to find what i need, u people r great!👍
    Im not good in this job, actualy i just love to do things by my self, so i started my adventure with 750 i got. Great car, just need small adjustment i think.
    So, for start rough idle and stalling, misfire etc on low rpm and now very often on high too (over 2500), had white smoke too.
    So i replaced membranes, i cleaned selenoids (seem to work good, they open when powered) but same problem continue. Measured the cam actuator motors, looks good, 0.0 ohm between body and contacts.
    I thought that selenoids might open but not enough or have not enough preassure while operating and causing problems. Any way to test them?
    I have codes P0014 and P0017.
    P0014 exhaust (B) camshaft positioning timing - over advanced bank 1.
    P0017 crank shaft position- camshaft position correlation ( bank1 sensor B).
    P0305 misfire cilinder 5 detected.

    Also 2A8C Vanos exhausts, flank adaptation 1-4.
    2A90 exhaust camshaft 1, tooth offset to crankshaft.
    29CC misfiring several cilinders, with cilinder disengagement.
    29D1 misfire cilinder 5.
    Yes u will ask to change camshaft sensor, i will order it, i have seen there r two, intake and exhaust. Are they on both banks?
    I have seen in some videos on utube they say just cleaning them will do the job, true or not?
    Thank u in advance.

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