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Thread: Are E36s prone to hydroplaning?

  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by spyderg0d View Post
    Yupe. Your right samy. Once again you've stated that you don't get it. Thumbs up.

    For the record, not all winter tires are made of softer rubber than all all season tires. A blind statement would be as niave as saying all tires are made the same with different tread patterns. Or that different cars with the same power numbers will have the same speed trap times.

    Epic fail.

    Summer tires are a soft compound that grips the road. Summer tires turn rock hard when they are cold, they make horrible tires for winter driving. Winter tires are made of a compound that does not get hard in the cold, the idea being that the relative soft compound will grip the roadway well, compared to rubber that has turned into a rock that slides over the roadway instead of gripping it. Winter tires are not made of softer rubber, they are made of rubber that does not change very much when it gets cold. Summer tires change a ton when they get cold. In summer conditions, summer tires are far superior to winter tires for nearly the same although opposite reasons as why winter tires are better than summer tires in winter conditions.

    None of this has anything at all to do with the question of the OP, how come my car hydroplanes? Hydroplaning comes from two things, speed and lack of tread. As the lack of tread increases, the speed has to decrease else hydroplaning happens more. A 225 on a 3 Series has a very large contact patch, this means that unless there is sufficient tread depth for the water on the roadway to be moved out of the way, the tire will ride on top of the water and hydroplaning is the result. Some tires are nothing short of pure crap, and they will hydroplane easily because they do not efficiently push the water out from under the tire. Then, add treadwear into the equation and hydroplaning in a parking lot is possible -- that's a bit of an exaggeration, but the point is valid. Tires that are poor when there is tread are only worse then there isn't any tread. This has nothing at all to do with winter vs. summer tires vs. all season tires. Summer tires in cold conditions are very poor in winter, then when the tread goes away,they are even worse. The OP is coming from California wine country, Napa Sonoma, whatever. This is low elevation, nearly seal level, so the temps are pretty moderate. He's not battling snow and ice, but he does have plenty of rain to deal with. He's got a relatively wide tire on a relatively light car, this combination is a recipe for hydroplaning. We don't know what brand of tire he's running, or even if all four tires are the same brand and model. We don't know that the tire tread is good or worn, but with 40k miles, worn is my guess. We also don't know if he drives like a teenager in a rental car, or if he drives as if he wants to keep the car for 10 more years. If he drives aggressively on worn, wide tires, then he's gonna have a high instance of hydroplaning.

    If you are having trouble with traction, then use less of the pedals. You cannot drive in winter with the same enthusiasm as you do in summer.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike WW View Post
    I fully admit this makes no sense, but it seems like my E36 is very prone to hydroplaning. I've put just over 100K on it now and it's been touchy as long as I've had it. Tires were worn when I bought it, maybe 4/32 or so. In my younger, poorer days I've bought tires with less tread than that. New tires, it was much better. I got 50K out of that set and they really weren't all that worn before they were too squirrely in the wet and I replaced them. Next set was only 40K but the same. It was raining hard tonight, but not that hard, believe me, I've seen much harder, and it was hydroplaning. Not out of control, a wheel or a side at a time, but you know it when it happens even if nothing too strange happens as a result. Not standing water, more like just less than perfect drainage off the road. Grooved pavement and all with 14K on these tires now. Same brand/model on my E39 touring and no problems. Nor with prior BMWs, the E28 I put a ton of miles on wasn't a problem, was perhaps 100-150 heavier with the same 225/50-16 sized tires. It's just this 328is.

    The short answer is, no, a 3 Series is not prone to hydroplaning.

    What brand and model of tire are you running?

  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by JDStrickland View Post
    Epic fail.

    Summer tires are a soft compound that grips the road. Summer tires turn rock hard when they are cold, they make horrible tires for winter driving. Winter tires are made of a compound that does not get hard in the cold, the idea being that the relative soft compound will grip the roadway well, compared to rubber that has turned into a rock that slides over the roadway instead of gripping it. Winter tires are not made of softer rubber, they are made of rubber that does not change very much when it gets cold. Summer tires change a ton when they get cold. In summer conditions, summer tires are far superior to winter tires for nearly the same although opposite reasons as why winter tires are better than summer tires in winter conditions.

    None of this has anything at all to do with the question of the OP, how come my car hydroplanes? Hydroplaning comes from two things, speed and lack of tread. As the lack of tread increases, the speed has to decrease else hydroplaning happens more. A 225 on a 3 Series has a very large contact patch, this means that unless there is sufficient tread depth for the water on the roadway to be moved out of the way, the tire will ride on top of the water and hydroplaning is the result. Some tires are nothing short of pure crap, and they will hydroplane easily because they do not efficiently push the water out from under the tire. Then, add treadwear into the equation and hydroplaning in a parking lot is possible -- that's a bit of an exaggeration, but the point is valid. Tires that are poor when there is tread are only worse then there isn't any tread. This has nothing at all to do with winter vs. summer tires vs. all season tires. Summer tires in cold conditions are very poor in winter, then when the tread goes away,they are even worse. The OP is coming from California wine country, Napa Sonoma, whatever. This is low elevation, nearly seal level, so the temps are pretty moderate. He's not battling snow and ice, but he does have plenty of rain to deal with. He's got a relatively wide tire on a relatively light car, this combination is a recipe for hydroplaning. We don't know what brand of tire he's running, or even if all four tires are the same brand and model. We don't know that the tire tread is good or worn, but with 40k miles, worn is my guess. We also don't know if he drives like a teenager in a rental car, or if he drives as if he wants to keep the car for 10 more years. If he drives aggressively on worn, wide tires, then he's gonna have a high instance of hydroplaning.

    If you are having trouble with traction, then use less of the pedals. You cannot drive in winter with the same enthusiasm as you do in summer.

    - - - Updated - - -




    The short answer is, no, a 3 Series is not prone to hydroplaning.

    What brand and model of tire are you running?
    As previously noted, currently, Sumitomo HTR A/S P02XL, 225/50-16, previously Conti DWS and General G max 03, both of which have very good to excellent reviews regarding wet performance at Tire Rack. Brand new is ok, less than brand new (but not nearly worn out) is not ok. Tire wear, including early replacement due to previously noted wet weather performance, has been between 40K to 50K, suggesting suspension wear and alignment at worst is not an issue.
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  3. #28
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    You seem to be insisting your car is in perfect condition but hydroplanes. But next to no one with a perfectly maintained E36 has hydroplaning problems.

  4. #29
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    it's the alignment. toe. definitely.

  5. #30
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    OP, a copy of the alignment #s you received after your last alignment, would be helpful.

  6. #31
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    Anope. I've felt and held winter tires in my hand at -20f next to a good set of all seasons and the cheap winter tire was much harder. I don't care what you say, not all tires are made the same or with specific compounds across any seasonal category. Your fail.
    Nobody would recertify these machines after somebody screwed with them without any visibility into what they did.

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  7. #32
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    Uniroyal information - as supplied by Uniroyal website

    Winter tyres

    There are three fundamental differences between summer and winter tyres: their structure, their rubber compound and their tread pattern.

    • Winter tyres have a higher natural rubber content which keeps them supple in the cold. The softer they are, the more the tyre is able to interlock with the road surface, improving grip and handling. Unlike summer tyres, which harden quickly in cold temperatures, winter tyres perform best in temperatures below +7 degrees C.
    • Winter tyres also have thousands of tiny grooves (known as sipes) in their tread blocks which are used to disperse water and prevent aquaplaning. These grooves bite into the snow, slush and ice, providing optimal grip with the road.
    • They also have a deep tread pattern. This provides a cavity for snow. Strangely, nothing grips snow better than snow, and the compacted snow intensifies the grip effect, adding traction to push the vehicle forwards on snowy and icy roads.

    Summer tyres

    • Summer tyres provide better all-round performance in the warmer months. They have a relatively hard compound which softens in milder temperatures to be able to adapt to dry as well as wet roads.
    • Summer tyres have fewer sipes than winter tyres, but have specially designed tread bars to minimise aquaplaning. These provide more grip both longitudinally and laterally in warm temperatures. ensuring lots of grip on wet and dry roads.
    • Although summer tyres can handle most weather conditions, they’re not suitable for harsher, colder climates. They have a harder rubber compound with less natural rubber than winter tyres and this begins to harden and can become brittle below +7 degrees C. That said, they are designed to adapt to higher temperatures without getting soft. This means that summer tyres have lower friction and therefore are more fuel efficient.
    • Summer tyres tend to have a simple block-shaped tread pattern, providing a large footprint with the road. This ensures excellent handling and have a massive impact on the braking distance. From +15 degrees C and above, vehicles with summer tyres come to stand six to seven metres earlier than cars with winter tyres.

  8. #33
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    It seems like he has issues after 40-50K miles, sounds pretty worn out by that time. He seems to like the wet handling of the Conti DWS in the wet, I have them and it's great. Just keep buying them.

    Gave away my BMWs, driving a VW and an Audi now.

  9. #34
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    My car does not have trouble in the water. I have 225/45x17, so I have a nearly identical contact patch. I have the Kuhmo Ecsta ASX. Before the Kuhmo, I had the BFG gForce Sport (BFG has replaced this tire with a new version). I'm in So.Calif, so most of my weather is the same as yours.

    If you have hydroplaning issues, then your tires are worn out or you drive with too much enthusiasm. If you has suspension problems, you would have them in dry weather too. I know of no suspension problems that manifest with wet ONLY. Too much pedal and worn tires are the only things I know of that manifest in wet more than in dry.

  10. #35
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    Below is the most recent alignment sheet. Clearing up a little confusion, I get 40-50K out of a set of tires when I replace them with 4-5 32ths of an inch remaining. I start getting hydroplaning at the most 10K after new. Since tire wear isn't bad I doubt alignment is all that far off either. And it's hydroplaning, I can hear it and feel it, not the spooky feeling you get with say toe out on the front. It's an entirely different sensation.

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  11. #36
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    Hydroplaning is not alignment dependent. It is purely a function of the amount of water on the road, the depth of the tread, and the speed of the car, in varying combinations of each of these. You seem to be describing water splashing off of the bottom of the car as the water depth changes from one section of the roadway to the next.

    Are you absolutely certain that the car is hydroplaning, and not simply splashing water against the underside of the car? Hydroplaning is where the car lifts off of the roadway and floats, kind of like water skiing.

    I'm not getting the reference to, "spooky feeling with say toe out on the front." Toe out is not spooky, unless you are spooked by a car that pulls to the side if you don't pay constant attention.

  12. #37
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    can't see alignment sheet?

  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by samy01 View Post
    can't see alignment sheet?
    You should, it's not passworded or anything. Try the link.

    https://i.imgur.com/ABccuiN.jpg
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  14. #39
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    Appears that you have a bent control arm, and likely some worn tie rods (inner or outers, or both).

    Also, those toe settings are trash all around in my experience, and I would never put positive toe on the rear of a FR RWD car that I am not trying to drift...

  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Team Neverlift View Post
    Appears that you have a bent control arm, and likely some worn tie rods (inner or outers, or both).

    Also, those toe settings are trash all around in my experience, and I would never put positive toe on the rear of a FR RWD car that I am not trying to drift...
    Positive toe is toe in. If you have negative or toe out on the rear you would have oversteer like crazy and have a hell of a time going in a straight line. The rear end would be trying to steer it. First calculator I ran across suggests the reading would be .120" in front and .203 in back. Might or might not be a little much in back, but front certainly looks about right.

    Tell me more on why you suspect a bent control arm and worn tierod ends.
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  16. #41
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    Uneven camber at the top mount, likely cause, bent control arm. Tie rods, your alignment is completely out of sorts by the time you replace the tires. The whole passenger side of the car seems to have uneven wear & toe before it was redone... likely failing rtab as well.

    That cleared up some questions for me, as this definitely has nothing to do with the chassis/car/tires you use as I stated previously.

  17. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Team Neverlift View Post
    Uneven camber at the top mount, likely cause, bent control arm. Tie rods, your alignment is completely out of sorts by the time you replace the tires. The whole passenger side of the car seems to have uneven wear & toe before it was redone... likely failing rtab as well.

    That cleared up some questions for me, as this definitely has nothing to do with the chassis/car/tires you use as I stated previously.
    Interesting. I'm not sure I'm convinced at this point, but it is something I'll look into, not discounting it either. I've had the front control arms out before to do the ball joints and control arm bushings so I think I would have noticed a bend. The rear I haven't dug in too far so far, but I have heard many stories about R tabs. This has been going on since I got it with 116K so started at relatively low mileage and the symptoms haven't really changed. At best there is obviously some wear with 200k, although feel doesn't seem much different than when I bought it. Time to break out the creeper I guess and take a look.

    I should add it's fine if it's wet, it's just if there is pretty much any standing water, even just slow to drain off the freeway that it's a problem. Not deep water, that's a no brainer, but just from one expansion joint to the next is sometimes enough.
    Last edited by Mike WW; 01-16-2018 at 01:47 AM.
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  18. #43
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    and at which speeds are you going when this happens ?
    Last edited by samy01; 01-16-2018 at 02:23 PM.

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    Perhaps you drive the e36 with more enthusiasm than your 5-series which leads to some more squirrely behavior in wet conditions?

    Shot in the dark....are your tires directional and are they mounted in the correct orientation? As a former dealership employee, I saw a lot of cars come through that went to cheap tire shops and had directional tires mounted improperly.

  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by samy01 View Post
    and at which speeds are you going when this happens ?
    Typically 55-65. More importantly, moving with the flow of traffic, emphatically not haulin' passing everyone in sight.

    Quote Originally Posted by ChuckDizzle View Post
    Perhaps you drive the e36 with more enthusiasm than your 5-series which leads to some more squirrely behavior in wet conditions?

    Shot in the dark....are your tires directional and are they mounted in the correct orientation? As a former dealership employee, I saw a lot of cars come through that went to cheap tire shops and had directional tires mounted improperly.
    Speed is about the same, think commute pattern, not recreational. Tires is a good point, and even I might miss it once or even twice, but I do rotate them and pay some attention, and this is 3 sets now, so no.
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  21. #46
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    65 with water standing on street with not exactly perfect tires is more than enough to get the problems you describe. i see no unnormal behaviour of the car.

  22. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by samy01 View Post
    65 with water standing on street with not exactly perfect tires is more than enough to get the problems you describe. i see no unnormal behaviour of the car.
    I'm talking even as little as between expansion joints, and just running at the speed of traffic, and 3K ago when I last measured them tread was 9/32 or more on every groove. Not quite brand new, but when most start out at 10/32, close. Plus none of my other cars do it, not the E12, not the E39, not the Datsun.
    Last edited by Mike WW; 01-16-2018 at 06:09 PM.
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  23. #48
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    Can you give a brief summary of all suspension work performed in the past 200k miles(parts replaced)?

  24. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike WW View Post
    I'm talking even as little as between expansion joints, and just running at the speed of traffic, and 3K ago when I last measured them tread was 9/32 or more on every groove. Not quite brand new, but when most start out at 10/32, close. Plus none of my other cars do it, not the E12, not the E39, not the Datsun.

    I'm starting to wonder what hydroplaning is, because your definition is not mine.

  25. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by JDStrickland View Post
    I'm starting to wonder what hydroplaning is, because your definition is not mine.
    That could be part of it. What I'm referring to is a noise, a sensation of slowing down more than I would normally, and a hard to describe, but odd feeling in the steering wheel, all while going thru light standing water. I get these same sensations on other cars in much deeper water. It's hard to say exactly how deep, I mean I'm driving, not standing there, but I would guess 1/8-1/4" deep. Not deep at all, but more than just wet. Valuing my life and car and it's sheetmetal, I obviously haven't pushed it under those conditions just to make sure.
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