Are E36s prone to hydroplaning?

[Mike WW]

I fully admit this makes no sense, but it seems like my E36 is very prone to hydroplaning. I've put just over 100K on it now and it's been touchy as long as I've had it. Tires were worn when I bought it, maybe 4/32 or so. In my younger, poorer days I've bought tires with less tread than that. New tires, it was much better. I got 50K out of that set and they really weren't all that worn before they were too squirrely in the wet and I replaced them. Next set was only 40K but the same. It was raining hard tonight, but not that hard, believe me, I've seen much harder, and it was hydroplaning. Not out of control, a wheel or a side at a time, but you know it when it happens even if nothing too strange happens as a result. Not standing water, more like just less than perfect drainage off the road. Grooved pavement and all with 14K on these tires now. Same brand/model on my E39 touring and no problems. Nor with prior BMWs, the E28 I put a ton of miles on wasn't a problem, was perhaps 100-150 heavier with the same 225/50-16 sized tires. It's just this 328is.

[spyderg0d]

Its probably less hydroplaning and more of wheel slippage. Lots of factors go into tire grip and slip.

[MIKYZZ4]

Yes, probably more a result of alignment settings. Age and condition of all suspension components?
You don't mention - the brand or type of tires? Staggered? Complete set all around?
When does this occur - during DD or at performance driving limits?
Too many variables, be more specific.

[wgknestrick]

I fully admit this makes no sense, but it seems like my E36 is very prone to hydroplaning. I've put just over 100K on it now and it's been touchy as long as I've had it. Tires were worn when I bought it, maybe 4/32 or so. In my younger, poorer days I've bought tires with less tread than that. New tires, it was much better. I got 50K out of that set and they really weren't all that worn before they were too squirrely in the wet and I replaced them. Next set was only 40K but the same. It was raining hard tonight, but not that hard, believe me, I've seen much harder, and it was hydroplaning. Not out of control, a wheel or a side at a time, but you know it when it happens even if nothing too strange happens as a result. Not standing water, more like just less than perfect drainage off the road. Grooved pavement and all with 14K on these tires now. Same brand/model on my E39 touring and no problems. Nor with prior BMWs, the E28 I put a ton of miles on wasn't a problem, was perhaps 100-150 heavier with the same 225/50-16 sized tires. It's just this 328is.

Hydro planing is 95% tires and speed IMO. Its just raw physics and really nothing to do about the individual car outside of the tire width/GVW that each car generally runs/has. Wider tires and lower weight all lead to easier hydroplaning.

Your E36 is probably lighter than the E39 and why it's threshold is lower. Get better tires in the wet. IMO, Tirerack's ratings are pretty accurate as a guide and generally any tire with a V groove based pattern is better in the wet than straight grooves. Still, with heavy rain, even good tires can't go much above 85mph in standing water. Are your tires wearing evenly, or are they worn from heavy negative camber? This is probably a combination of factors. If your alignment is setup for oversteer (generally rear toe out), it also could be contributing to the unstable feeling in the wet.

Worn tires
average to < average tire performance in the wet
Light car
Wider tires than stock
Poor roads with heavy tar and tire grooves? (this fills up the porosity in the tarmac which increases standing water level)
negative aero

[samy01]

alignment

[Mike WW]

Stock size, currently Sumitomo HTR A/S P02XL, 225/50-16 on there, square, not staggered. Alignment with every set of tires and getting decent life out of them without terrible wear patterns suggest alignment is ok. Front end is ok, I've done the wear prone set of ball joints and the control arm bushings. Surely more wear in there than brand new, but not bad at all. The E39 is much heavier to be sure, but does have a bigger contact patch too so calculating pounds per square inch is difficult. Like I said, it makes no sense.

[pbonsalb]

You may have worn out RTABs that are allowing the rear to move around more than it should. These cars are 20-25 years old. There are about 30 mounts, bushings, ball joints and end links under the car.

[MIKYZZ4]

Get it up on a lift and inspect all suspension bushings and components.
Loose stabilizers and endlinks?
Failing shocks /struts?
incorrect alignment settings?

[gc325is]

Yes but the E30 were also known to do 360 spins in the snow. Some newer e36 versions have traction control to help that, but a worn strut mount, shocks or bushing can cause momentary loss of tire traction and lead to a hydroplaning feel. " Its probably less hydroplaning and more of wheel slippage"

[Billyj]

I've noticed that all my E36 cars without LSDs have a tendency to snap oversteer especially on left hand turns. Probably largely do to worn rear suspension... My first E36 ended up on it's back and totalled.

[Mike WW]

Get it up on a lift and inspect all suspension bushings and components.
Loose stabilizers and endlinks?
Failing shocks /struts?
incorrect alignment settings?

Yes but the E30 were also known to do 360 spins in the snow. Some newer e36 versions have traction control to help that, but a worn strut mount, shocks or bushing can cause momentary loss of tire traction and lead to a hydroplaning feel. " Its probably less hydroplaning and more of wheel slippage"

I'm sure it's hydroplaning. It's the sound, the appearance of the road, far less apparent with brand new tires, the feel in the steering wheel. The car had ~110K on it at purchase and the symptoms are exactly the same now as then. And I've put 100K on it with 3 sets of new tires and 3 alignments, all with consistent behavior. I'll buy a bad alignment, maybe even 2, but not all 3. Slow down a bit and it goes away, but I'm only talking about doing 65 in a moderate to heavy/moderate rain in the first place. Traction control/abs are of no use, my driving patterns in the rain are moderate enough all I do is lift throttle. And pucker a bit. And in 20 to 50 feet or whatever it's back to normal.

[MIKYZZ4]

You might try something other than Sumitomo.
I prefer Continental Extreme Contact™ DWS06,
which is what the family and I have on all our vehicles.

[spyderg0d]

Snow tires are generally harder rubber with although an aggressive pattern for bite, on bare road is a lot of contact area with small veins. So I guess it could be that water can't escape the tread of the tire fast enough. It still could be up in the air for hydroplaning on the water or the contact patch slipping on wet. Either way, its da tires. I've had too much experience with e36 and too wide tires in winter. For highway speeds with possibility of snow I would never run over a 215 on a 16" wheel. Anything else larger can get "exciting" in an instant with a good gust of wind or bridge pass.

[CblockM3]

Snow tires are generally harder rubber with although an aggressive pattern for bite, on bare road is a lot of contact area with small veins. So I guess it could be that water can't escape the tread of the tire fast enough. It still could be up in the air for hydroplaning on the water or the contact patch slipping on wet. Either way, its da tires. I've had too much experience with e36 and too wide tires in winter. For highway speeds with possibility of snow I would never run over a 215 on a 16" wheel. Anything else larger can get "exciting" in an instant with a good gust of wind or bridge pass.

That is incorrect, snow tires are softer rubber not harder.

[spyderg0d]

My bad. In comparison to all season in summer or squishy stickies, snows in the winter are still harder. If you put both next together in sub zero temps, yes the snow will be less hard, but for non freezing conditions (the exact opposite time that snows are designed to deal with) a snow tire will offer less wet grip than an all season.

[samy01]

that's why they are winter tires and not summer tires...

you have to compare them at the same temps, what kind of comparison even is that

[Phinnman]

I've noticed this as well over the years. I've had my E36 for 5 years /150k miles and it's been interesting in many situations. I stress a lot about buying tires for the car and I don't get near as good a wear life out of my rears compared to front. My alignment in the rear has aggressive camber due to worn rear control arm tabs, which may be what is causing my problems with wearing and my also contribute to the feeling, but this wouldn't have been going on for the 5 years I've owned it that's for sure.

I don't often drive the car on the highway in the rain if I can avoid it I will, but when I do I generally putt along at 55-60 no more and if it gets too dicey I'll gladly take a back road.

I've had other E36's (4 to be exact) and put one off the highway in the rain. Ever since then I've been a little more cautious.

I suggest doing your research on your wet weather tire purchases, taking it very easy, and as mentioned here check your rear suspension components it's more likely to be a problem in the rear then the front I've determined, especially since a front suspension kit is so inexpensive and easy to replace at once while more often then not the rear components get neglected even I can be guilty of that...

[spyderg0d]

that's why they are winter tires and not summer tires...

you have to compare them at the same temps, what kind of comparison even is that

The comparison is suited for non frozen driving conditions with snow tires. Tires are to be used during the designated seasonal use, comparing different season tires at the same temps gets you no information or understanding of the specifics on the actual traction value.

For instance since you couldn't put 2+2 together say buddy. Snow tires + non frozen wet road <traction than all seasons + non frozen wet road.
It might be kind of redundant to ask the water shed properties of a tire designed to deal with FROZEN WATER. Lol

[samy01]

yeah a winter tire is not the best when its not used in winter, like it is designed to. and ?

you said winter tires have harder rubber which is just wrong. then you say "yes ok but a winter tire in the cold will he harder than an all season tire in summer" well what can i say, that doesn't say anything useful, it's still softer than a all season in the cold, that's a big point of winter tires. i didn't talk about traction when i said you have to compare them at the same temperature, i meant when comparing rubber hardness you obviously must compare them at the same time, anything else doesn't make sense in any way.

[spyderg0d]

Yupe. Your right samy. Once again you've stated that you don't get it. Thumbs up.

For the record, not all winter tires are made of softer rubber than all all season tires. A blind statement would be as niave as saying all tires are made the same with different tread patterns. Or that different cars with the same power numbers will have the same speed trap times.

[samy01]

waste of time.

[Mike WW]

I've noticed this as well over the years. I've had my E36 for 5 years /150k miles and it's been interesting in many situations. I stress a lot about buying tires for the car and I don't get near as good a wear life out of my rears compared to front. My alignment in the rear has aggressive camber due to worn rear control arm tabs, which may be what is causing my problems with wearing and my also contribute to the feeling, but this wouldn't have been going on for the 5 years I've owned it that's for sure.

I don't often drive the car on the highway in the rain if I can avoid it I will, but when I do I generally putt along at 55-60 no more and if it gets too dicey I'll gladly take a back road.

I've had other E36's (4 to be exact) and put one off the highway in the rain. Ever since then I've been a little more cautious.

I suggest doing your research on your wet weather tire purchases, taking it very easy, and as mentioned here check your rear suspension components it's more likely to be a problem in the rear then the front I've determined, especially since a front suspension kit is so inexpensive and easy to replace at once while more often then not the rear components get neglected even I can be guilty of that...

Oh good, at least someone else knows what I'm talking about.

Regarding the discussion about snows, none of them have been snows. Rather VR rating or above all seasons, rated high performance or ultra high performance at Tire Rack and emphatically not a dedicated snow. The other sets were Conti DWS which have gotten excellent reviews and General G max 03, both of which have very good reviews regarding wet performance. The tires have not been some $39.99 K mart special.

[pbonsalb]

I have had my E36M3 for 12 years and have never thought it was particularly susceptible to hydroplaning. I have also not read much about this complaint in the 12 years I have been active in this forum. I’d look at tires, alignment, and suspension to find the culprit.

[Team Neverlift]

If this were true, my much lighter e36 on a much wider contact patch would have issues in standing water, there are no such issues... and most of the time I am running K Mart special / or some other terrible used tires for daily duties.

I would put money on a bushing, or tie rod contributing/causing this.

[E36328Coupe]

The comparison is suited for non frozen driving conditions with snow tires. Tires are to be used during the designated seasonal use, comparing different season tires at the same temps gets you no information or understanding of the specifics on the actual traction value.

For instance since you couldn't put 2+2 together say buddy. Snow tires + non frozen wet road <traction than all seasons + non frozen wet road.
It might be kind of redundant to ask the water shed properties of a tire designed to deal with FROZEN WATER. Lol

Winter tyres are NOT primarily designed to be used with frozen water, because water isn't frozen at 7 degrees C which is where they allegedly strart to exhibit better properties than other tyres due to increased flexibility,

Additionally Mud and Snow tyres can be either a summer or winter compound, so having them does not necessarily mean they are better in the cold.