You guys can tell yourselves anything you want if it makes you feel better.
Not one mention of suspension or alignment in any of these three articles.
https://m.tirerack.com/tires/tiretec....jsp?techid=16
TIRE TECH
Hydroplaning: the Role Tires Play
(Lea en español)
Hydroplaning happens when one or more tires is lifted from the road by a wedge of water that gets trapped in front of and under a tire as the vehicle drives through water. Hydroplaning most frequently occurs during heavy rainstorms when water creates puddles on the highway or expressway. In addition to the accompanying splash and scaring the heck out of the driver, hydroplaning typically causes the steering wheel to jerk and the vehicle to abruptly pull towards the puddle.
The speed at which a tire hydroplanes is a function of water depth, vehicle speed, vehicle weight, tire width, tread depth and tread design. It depends on how much water has to be removed, how much weight is pressing down on the tires and how efficient the tread design is at evacuating water. While deeper water, higher speeds, lighter vehicles, wider tires, less tread depth and less efficient tread designs will cause tires to hydroplane at lower speeds; all tires will be forced to hydroplane at some speed.
As a rule, tread design affects hydroplaning resistance at high speeds and in deep water. Tread compound affects wet traction at lower speeds or in shallow water.
Directional tread designs (sometimes called Unidirectional tread designs) are frequently used on tires intended to better resist hydroplaning. Their multiple tread grooves are aligned in a repeating "V" shape to increase the tire's ability to channel water from between the tire's footprint and the road. Somewhat like the vanes of a water pump continually pushing water in one direction through the engine, the grooves of a directional tire are designed to push water in one direction through the tire (forward on an angle to the sides). Directional tread designs are especially helpful in increasing hydroplaning resistance when relatively wide Plus Two, Plus Three or Plus Four tire and wheel applications result in fitting a much wider tire to a vehicle than its Original Equipment size.
https://www.tirebuyer.com/education/hydroplaning
How to avoid hydroplaning
When it comes to rainy commutes, soggy moods rule the day. Road vision gets hampered, traffic backs up, and accidents accumulate. Not to mention those parking lot puddles that are perfectly placed to inspire new and imaginative curse words. Worse than arriving at the office with matted hair and wet socks, however, is not arriving at all, due to a very common, potentially dangerous, and surprisingly avoidable rain-induced occurrence known as hydroplaning – or aquaplaning to our friends from across the pond.
What is hydroplaning?
Hydroplaning occurs when a sheet of water wedges itself between the road and your tire, preventing the tire’s tread from properly gripping the road. You may have heard about a tire’s “footprint,” which refers to the part of the tread that physically touches the pavement and allows you and your car to turn freely and maintain unimpeded forward momentum. The bigger your tire’s footprint, or the more contact your tread has with the road, the more control you have. When you hydroplane, your car is basically losing its footing, which can lead to a loss of steering control, spins, and, at the very least, jangled nerves.
hydroplaning diagram
How does it happen?
While road conditions and tire health both increase the risk of hydroplaning, the main perpetrators are speed and water depth. Crash Forensics says that you’re at risk when moving above speeds above 45 MPH (example: the freeway) and when water depth on the road is at least 1/10th of an inch. Unfortunately, we can’t stop our cars and break out the rulers, so the safe bet would be to treat all wet roads as potential hydroplaning hazard zones. And while it is possible to identify the factors above, the truth is that hydroplaning often strikes unexpectedly, creating a scary and hectic few moments for everyone involved – especially those who are unprepared or unaware of the indicating factors. Taking a few precautionary steps can help you avoid ending up as one of the reasons the traffic commute is in the red.
Preventative measures to avoid hydroplaning
Rotate tires regularly and replace as necessary.
Makes sure your tires are properly inflated. You’d be amazed at how many dangerous situations you can prevent with this one quick, easy measure.
Check your tires regularly to ensure proper tread depth. Use the coin test!
Avoid settling into the outer lanes of the road, where excess water tends to accumulate.
Watch the drivers in front of you. If they begin to act erratically, there’s a chance you will too. And it goes without saying, but you always want to maintain proper distance as well.
Try to drive in the tracks created by the vehicle(s) ahead of you.
Turn off the cruise control. There are varying arguments as to how much cruise control actually increases hydroplaning risk, but at the very least you’ll stay more in tune with the conditions at hand.
Sometimes, even when you do take every possible precaution, Mother Nature doesn’t care and you can still end up in hydroplaning. If your vehicle does start to hydroplane, follow these steps – you still may be able to right yourself with the road and make it to work with nothing more than an increased heartbeat.
steps to prevent hydroplaning
If you end up hydroplaning...
DON’T PANIC. We know – this is easier said than done.
Don’t slam on the brakes. Ease your foot off the accelerator, and apply brakes gently if necessary to avoid further loss of control. In the rare case your vehicle does not have anti-lock brakes (check your vehicle’s manual if unsure), try to avoid braking altogether. If you must brake, “pump” the brake pedal gently.
Maintain a firm grip on the steering wheel and keep yourself pointed forward, or in the direction of the road, and be prepared to compensate when the tires regain control.
Be careful not to oversteer, as your momentum can throw you off course or into a spin.
Whether you have front-wheel or rear-wheel drive, you always want to maintain the course of the road. This may take a few turns of the steering wheel in either direction.
Take a deep breath and calm your nerves.
Choosing the proper tires
Because hydroplaning is so common and so potentially dangerous, tire manufacturers are always coming up with new designs and experimenting with various materials to help prevent it. This emphasis on hydroplane prevention means that there are many excellent tires designed to expertly expel water from their tread and keep you moving in a straight line. Here are a few good choices:
Continental ExtremeContact DWS06
Continental ExtremeContact DWS06
Goodyear Assurance CS TripleTred All-Season
Goodyear Assurance CS TripleTred All-Season
Michelin Defender T+H
Michelin Defender T+H
http://www.safemotorist.com/articles...ng_basics.aspx
Hydroplaning Basics: Why it Occurs and How You Can Avoid it
Have you ever skidded while driving on a wet road for what seemed like a split second or even longer? Even if you didn’t lose complete control, you most likely experienced hydroplaning.
What is Hydroplaning?
The term hydroplaning is commonly used to refer to the skidding or sliding of a cars tires across a wet surface. Hydroplaning occurs when a tire encounters more water than it can scatter. Water pressure in the front of the wheel pushes water under the tire, and the tire is then separated from the road surface by a thin film of water and loses traction. The result is loss of steering, braking and power control.
Rubber tires have tread (grooves) that are designed to channel water from beneath the tire. This creates higher friction with the road surface and can help prevent or minimize instances of hydroplaning.
When does Hydroplaning Occur?
Hydroplaning can occur on any wet road surface, however, the first 10 minutes of a light rain can be the most dangerous.
When light rain mixes with oil residue on the road surface, it creates slippery conditions that can cause vehicles, especially those traveling speeds in excess of 35 mph, to hydroplane. This can be a deadly combination for the driver and surrounding motorists.
The chance of being involved in a motor vehicle accident increases during poor weather conditions such as fog, rain, ice and snow. However, it isn’t necessarily the pounding rain and blinding snow that are the most dangerous; it is the slick conditions that drivers aren’t prepared for.
How do I Avoid Hydroplaning?
The following are important tips to avoid hydroplaning:
Keep your tires properly inflated
Rotate and replace tires when necessary
Slow down when roads are wet: the faster you drive, the harder it is for your tires to scatter the water
Stay away from puddles and standing water
Avoid driving in outer lanes where water tends to accumulate
Try to drive in the tire tracks left by the cars in front of you
Turn off cruise control
Drive in a lower gear
Avoid hard braking
Try not to make sharp or quick turns
Shock and Strut Replacement
The average shock or strut compresses 75 Million times in 50,000 miles! Shocks wear out in as little as 50,000 miles and should be replaced no later than 60,000 miles. Struts wear out in as little as 60,000 miles and should be replaced no later than 90,000 miles.
Worn out shocks and struts adversely affect stability, braking and traction of your vehicle.
If a road were perfectly flat, with no irregularities, suspensions wouldn’t be necessary. But roads are far from flat. Even freshly paved highways have subtle imperfections that can interact with the wheels* of a car. It’s these imperfections that apply forces to the wheels. A bump in the road causes the wheel to move up and down perpendicular to the road surface. The magnitude, of course, depends on whether the wheel is striking a giant bump or a tiny speck. Either way, the car wheel experiences a vertical acceleration as it passes over an imperfection.
Without an intervening structure, all of wheel’s vertical energy is transferred to the frame, which moves in the same direction. In such a situation, the wheels can lose contact with the road completely. Then, under the downward force of gravity, the wheels can slam back into the road surface. What you need is a system that will absorb the energy of the vertically accelerated wheel, allowing the frame and body to ride undisturbed while the wheels follow bumps in the road. This is the job of the shock and or strut. Worn out shocks and struts are unable to keep the tire in constant contact with the road surface which can cause loss of control of the vehicle. This is especially true in wet road conditions when water/snow gets under the tire causing hydroplaning. A very dangerous situation.
What I'm trying to emphasize is simply, > Yes, tire quality plays a significant role, but suspension is included in the equation.
If new tires did not cause the symptoms to completely disappear, then we have to move on and examine the suspension as the possible cause.
98 328is
02 525ita
80 528i
81 528ia
and decades of owning and driving BMWs
Yes...
IMG_20180121_012137.jpg
Out of curiosity - were the Contis the tires that came on the car?
-Josh: 1998 S54 E36 M3/4/6 with most of the easy stuff and most of the hard stuff. At least twice. 271k miles. 1994 E32 740il with nothing but some MPars. 93k miles.
I haven't had any issues with either of my E36s in the rain.
First car had most of the suspension done after I bought it, around 135k and drove it to 207k. I never did the RTABs.
Current car, owned it since 148k, currently at 165k and did nearly all the suspension at 162k. I had already done the RTABs at 150k since I was noticing issues on highway ramps. No issues in the rain that I recall but I did them 3 months after I bought it.
Both were aligned to factory specs.
I have noticed you can tell the roads are wet through the steering wheel. Like extra resistance from the road, if that makes sense. If I hit a big puddle on one side the wheel jerks more than other cars. But never feeling of no control.
Our E70 is overdue for new tires. That was getting pretty sketchy on the highway during a massive downpour. Everytime I hit the brakes it felt like the front was sliding around. (Yes I know not to hit the brakes while hydroplaning. Hit them due to traffic, then noticed the loss of traction)
Sent from the dark side of the Moon
If you had worn suspension components, then you would also have tires that are worn unevenly. You either do not have a problem with hydroplaning or you have tires that are simply not up to the task of moving the water from out of the tread. You do not have suspension issues that lead to hydroplaning WITHOUT also giving you other clues to the existence of suspension issues.
- - - Updated - - -
Have you done a Google search on the tires you have to see what the User Reviews might be? If users say, 'they suck in the rain,' then you have your answer. If they say, 'they're awesome in the rain,' then you have something to look for.
I've tried that route. He doesn't want to buy new tires. He either wants A) us to confirm that the E36 is terrible in the rain, or B) us to tell him how to fix his suspension so his tires stop hydroplaning.
Never mind the fact that he's getting tires that are lasting 40-50k miles (and still have 4-5/32s tread left at that point).
Mike, my tires don't hydroplane - and I run way too much camber and have no tread left on the inside. I get 30k out of Pilot Super Sports if I'm lucky (and running less camber than I am at the moment) - and that's running them to the cords, not replacing them at 4-5/32s. But they also provide excellent traction until the very end (even in the wet).
I know you don't want to hear this, but you need different tires - and to reset your expectations.
Any tire that lasts 50k miles isn't going to provide near the kind of traction - even brand new - as something designed for grip rather longevity. That goes for wet traction as well as dry traction. And the wet traction issues will be more pronounced earlier than if you were getting better tires. And that is especially true at the end of its useful life - even if it looks like it has tread left. "I got 50K out of that set and they really weren't all that worn before they were too squirrely in the wet and I replaced them." They may not have looked worn, but trust me - they were worn out. That's why they got squirrelly in the wet. Same goes for the next set at 40k. Of course you need to slow down more when your tires are at the end of their useful life.
I can't imagine complaining about hydroplaning after putting 50k miles on a set of tires. I also can't imagine complaining about grip - including in the wet - after purchasing a tire with a 580 treadwear rating. They will never have the kind of traction of a tire with a 200-300 treadwear rating, wet or dry.
And your (heavier) 5 Series is likely the reason why you feel like you can't go as fast on the same tires.
You claim you've had this problem since you got the car around 100k, and you've replaced several different suspension components over the years. And at best, suspension is only a minor contributor.
As JD and I (and others) have noted, hydroplaning comes down to tires and speed. You're either buying crappy tires (trading grip for treadwear), or you're trying to go too fast.
It's that simple.
-Josh: 1998 S54 E36 M3/4/6 with most of the easy stuff and most of the hard stuff. At least twice. 271k miles. 1994 E32 740il with nothing but some MPars. 93k miles.
No, more like wondering if others have had the same experience. A solution would be good but I wasn't and aren't expecting it.
Good. Although I suspect you mean negative camber.Never mind the fact that he's getting tires that are lasting 40-50k miles (and still have 4-5/32s tread left at that point).
Mike, my tires don't hydroplane - and I run way too much camber and have no tread left on the inside. I get 30k out of Pilot Super Sports if I'm lucky (and running less camber than I am at the moment) - and that's running them to the cords, not replacing them at 4-5/32s. But they also provide excellent traction until the very end (even in the wet).
No, I'm listing life span to illustrate alignment and wear isn't terrible. And as mentioned earlier I'm getting hydroplaning after 10-12K at most and complaining about that, not what they're like when they're worn out.I know you don't want to hear this, but you need different tires - and to reset your expectations.
Any tire that lasts 50k miles isn't going to provide near the kind of traction - even brand new - as something designed for grip rather longevity. That goes for wet traction as well as dry traction. And the wet traction issues will be more pronounced earlier than if you were getting better tires. And that is especially true at the end of its useful life - even if it looks like it has tread left. "I got 50K out of that set and they really weren't all that worn before they were too squirrely in the wet and I replaced them." They may not have looked worn, but trust me - they were worn out. That's why they got squirrelly in the wet. Same goes for the next set at 40k. Of course you need to slow down more when your tires are at the end of their useful life.
I can't imagine complaining about hydroplaning after putting 50k miles on a set of tires. I also can't imagine complaining about grip - including in the wet - after purchasing a tire with a 580 treadwear rating. They will never have the kind of traction of a tire with a 200-300 treadwear rating, wet or dry.
As mentioned earlier, E12 and E28 are nearly the same weight as E36 according to the owners manual, yet I don't and didn't have the same problems. And really, I can't even do the same pace as most vehicles on the road, pickups, Civics, etc.And your (heavier) 5 Series is likely the reason why you feel like you can't go as fast on the same tires.
Tires have all gotten very good to excellent wet weather performance ratings at Tire Rack. Different BMWs, with nearly the same weight, with the exact same size tire have not performed this way.You claim you've had this problem since you got the car around 100k, and you've replaced several different suspension components over the years. And at best, suspension is only a minor contributor.
As JD and I (and others) have noted, hydroplaning comes down to tires and speed. You're either buying crappy tires (trading grip for treadwear), or you're trying to go too fast.
It's that simple.
While capable, this is a commute car, not a track car. It seems like I should be able to keep up with commute traffic in the rain. If I do it's white knuckle time.
Last edited by Mike WW; 01-23-2018 at 06:45 PM.
98 328is
02 525ita
80 528i
81 528ia
and decades of owning and driving BMWs
Man, I really don't know what else to tell you.
The short answer is that it's not the car, it's the tires. Very few have had problems, and even when they do, hydroplaning issues are usually due to excessive speed or worn / poor / wider than factory tires . And I don't blame you for putting commuter tires on it given it's a commuter car.
Honestly, it may just be what you're comparing it to. The E39 is 700 pounds heavier, longer and wider - on the same 225 tire size (which is the correct factory size).
But you're right about the E28. It's about the same size as the E36 - and actually about 200 lbs lighter. But factory tire size is a 195 compared to the 225 you're running on the E36. I think it's also important to note that factory E36 328 tire size is 205.
Most of us are running significantly wider than that factory size - but are also running tires with sub 300 treadwear ratings. And while I've downplayed the importance of alignment specs, many are also running more-than-factory (negative) camber - which reduces contact patch in straight-forward driving.
Especially with this crowd here, people running wider tires are also likely running better compound / lower treadwear and more negative camber, both of which are mitigating factors countering the wider tires. If your E36 is a commuter, you're running wider tires, but also lower traction / higher treadwear tires, and also not running additional negative camber.
But this is the discussion we should be having - tire selection - not a discussion focused around alignment and suspension components. You established early on that your suspension is in good repair and this issue has been ongoing since purchase at 110k (as if your insane tire life doesn't demonstrate alignment is good).
-Josh: 1998 S54 E36 M3/4/6 with most of the easy stuff and most of the hard stuff. At least twice. 271k miles. 1994 E32 740il with nothing but some MPars. 93k miles.
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