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Thread: Steed Speed Twin Scroll Manifold Spool Comparisons

  1. #51
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    Updating this with some more information. Mostly just preliminary stuff and haven't set final camshaft timing details or calibration changes.

    - 4th Gear Pull from approximately 2000 RPM up
    - 2.86
    - 275/268
    - Old ass E70
    - SteedSpeed 2.0
    - S362sxe .91 T4
    - 3.5"
    - Road
    - 2900 RPM @ 5.0 PSI
    - 3150 RPM @ 10.0 PSI
    - 3350 RPM @ 15.0 PSI
    - 3550 RPM @ 20.0 PSI


    2018-07-31.png
    Last edited by Kevin325i; 07-31-2018 at 08:51 AM.

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin325i View Post
    Updating this with some more information. Mostly just preliminary stuff and haven't set final camshaft timing details or calibration changes.

    - 4th Gear Pull from approximately 2000 RPM up
    - 2.86
    - 275/268
    - Old ass E70
    - SteedSpeed 2.0
    - S362sxe .91 T4
    - 3.5"
    - Road
    - 2900 RPM @ 5.0 PSI
    - 3150 RPM @ 10.0 PSI
    - 3350 RPM @ 15.0 PSI
    - 3550 RPM @ 20.0 PSI


    2018-07-31.png
    Which Steed Speed manifold is this?

    What is the spring pressure of your WG?

    Compared to your 2 previous setups, this must feel like a BIG upgrade in performance!
    Last edited by PEI330Ci; 08-01-2018 at 12:43 AM.

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by PEI330Ci View Post
    Which Steed Speed manifold is this?

    What is the spring pressure of your WG?

    Compared to your 2 previous setups, this must feel like a BIG upgrade in performance!
    Its the Twin scroll steedspeed.

    7 psi wastegate spring with 0 control. That curve is what the normal response looks like with the boost control solenoid doing nothing.

    The response is rediculous and the cams make the top end really move. This is on vincedahls car but he seems happy. Still have to move the cams one more time it looks like.

  5. #55
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    So the 7 psi spring is not controlling boost? 7 psi spring and you get 20 psi at 3550. What is the boost at 7000?

  6. #56
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    Working with around 26 psi positive pressure around 6000, tapers by 7000. Again this is prelim stuff to try and baseline duty cycle response for the feed forward wastegate control.

    Really just the wastegate not being awesome, as seen by the little spike in pressure before it falls and then rises again.

  7. #57
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    What cams and what are you setting the timing at?

  8. #58
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    Intake Cam
    http://www.catcams.com/products/cams...AMSETUP_id=207

    Exhaust Cam
    http://www.catcams.com/products/cams...AMSETUP_id=206

    Lobe centers were 110 Intake CL, 105 Exhaust CL.

    The data above was at 120 Intake CL, 105 Exhaust CL.


    Vanos 2500-6000 engagement. Ended up with 2000-5750. Just a bit too much overlap to keep carrying it into the high rpm with the turbo housing that's on it. Because of this we'll move the exhaust to 110 CL, leaving the intake at 120 and hoping to get another 500-750 rpm before exhaust disillusion causes everything to tank. We still carry 100% ve out to 7500 rpm though so can't really complain compared to s52 camshafts.

  9. #59
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    My 264/256 cams are currently set to 121 int, 118.5 exh. I'll be swapping in new lifters this week and might increase the overlap slightly as the exhaust manifold back pressure is likely less with the EFR9180 vs the GTX3582R that I had set the cams up for. With these cam settings the EFR9180 is getting 20 psi by 3160 rpm on the Steed 2.0.
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    The cat cams have been great, I have 0 regrets other than it being a huge pain to time any set of camshafts in these engines.

    I'm tempted to roll that exhaust centerline out a little bit further but hoping to just go to 110 exhaust, 120 intake and be done. Hopefully that gets a bit more vacuum at idle too.

  11. #61
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    I see 18-19 “Hg idle vacuum. I thought about going to the 276/270 Schricks but have no desire to loose boost threshold.

    One thing that I do wonder is that even thought I have 20 psi at 3100 rpm, the engine doesn’t feel like the torque really comes on til 3800 rpm. I’m thinking I could probably loose a bit of boost threshold if the engine isn’t using the boost it has available.

  12. #62
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    I've kept an eye on not just chasing boost numbers but so far the vanos on or off has proved that out pretty well. If you've got the same activation points that can be clouding your testing a bit.

    Your exhaust opening point should be about the same because of the duration differences though. You could log airflow of the maf, that would tell us pretty quick and be more direct then boost pressure. And more accurate than my ve calculation

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    I think it's fairly important to note that the lobe centreline is part of, but not the only variable for valve opening and valve closing events. I have seen non-symmetrical cam profiles where more than 50% of the duration is on one side of the centreline measurement. Regardless, the mistake that I've come to identify recently in my setup is related to the default position of the VANOS actuator. Let me explain....

    I've had dyno data shared with me of VANOS tuning on an a turbo S54. I used this data to do testing with the M54 inlet VANOS, and found that it worked fairly well. The M54 has a resting position of 126 deg ATDC, and the S54 has a resting position of 130 ATDC, so I applied similar numbers to my Inlet VANOS map. Below is a comparison of the S54 VANOS, my M54 tune, and the OEM tune:



    Ideally, I would have refined my numbers further on the dyno, but I never had the chance. I did use pulls on the street, and an analysis of the affect on the engine's VE to validate the changes, but I didn't put that much time into testing. (I think I did a pull with 126 degrees at all RPMs, a pull with 106 degrees at all RPMs, and a pull with 86 degrees at all RPMs.....and they were all "slower" than the S54 curve)

    Being that inlet curve worked, I copied in the exhaust VANOS curve, however I didn't do any further testings to validate it's performance. There were other factors affecting the VE at higher RPM (Boost creep), so I didn't get a clear view of the full effect. Below is what happens when you plug in a map without any regard to the resting position of the camshaft:



    Yup......the M54 has a resting position of -105 deg BTDC....and the S54 is -128 deg BTDC. So my map was 23 degrees off....all the time. The thing to keep in mind was that there was dyno testing of the exhaust cam position with the S54 AFTER the inlet position had been optimized, so one could say that the S54 map was relatively refined.

    The problem with the exhaust VANOS on the M54, is that it simply doesn't have the adjustment range to follow the S54 curve. It can be tricked to do this, but I haven't tried it yet. This involves removing the VANOS helix spline on the camshaft, and rotating it approximately 20 crank degrees (10 degrees on the cam) so that the resting position of the exhaust VANOS achieves a -125 deg BTDC lobe centreline.

    The reason I bring this up is that I don't think the spool characteristics of my current data is optimized, and further testing is required.


    On another note, I don't think boost pressure equals power. I too have seen the engine make lots of boost under 3500 RPM, and the car felt like it wasn't making any power. Ideally, we would be tuning the car to make the most power, rather than show the highest airflow resistance (Positive pressure) in the inlet manifold.

  14. #64
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    Paging Vollosso

  15. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by PEI330Ci View Post
    Paging Vollosso
    What’s up?

    My cams are set as follows. I bought them as unknown and measured them with the cmm. Traced the profiles in cad and figured the information while in blocks with the help of perry.


    Currently set at:

    Exhaust centerline is ~104.8
    Intake centerline is ~112

    EVO = 55.8 degrees before BDC
    EVC = 26.2 after TDC

    IVO = 29 before TDC
    IVC = 73 after BDC

    LSA = 108.4 degrees

    If you want I have both the s54 and m54 stock vanos setpoints I can share.

    Actually can you change the data in that post to what my Dyno graph says? I will break it out by rpm later to help.


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  16. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by vollosso View Post
    Actually can you change the data in that post to what my Dyno graph says? I will break it out by rpm later to help.
    I'd like to leave the original data point intact to show road loading, and add a second entry with revised RPM points.

    Just to confirm:

    Cams are now 282/262
    E85
    Wastegate spring pressure?

    5PSI @ ?
    10PSI @ ?
    15PSI @ ?
    19PSI @ ?
    20PSI @ ?
    25PSI @ ?
    30PSI @ ?
    60PSI @ Bigger Turbo?

  17. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by PEI330Ci View Post
    I'd like to leave the original data point intact to show road loading, and add a second entry with revised RPM points.

    Just to confirm:

    Cams are now 282/262
    E85
    Wastegate spring pressure?

    5PSI @ ?
    10PSI @ ?
    15PSI @ ?
    19PSI @ ?
    20PSI @ ?
    25PSI @ ?
    30PSI @ ?
    60PSI @ Bigger Turbo?
    282/273 I believe, no part number or spec that is just the closest i can match to a shelf cam.

    21 psi gates with the boost controller at 100% duty cycle to see what the turbo would do.

    Actually e70.

    5PSI @ 3000
    10PSI @ 3590
    15PSI @ 3800
    19PSI @ 3980
    20PSI @ 4000 <--Gates crack
    25PSI @ 4080
    30PSI @ 4230
    35PSI @ 4500
    40PSI @ 5000
    45PSI @ 5500
    60PSI @ Bigger Turbo, compound turbos maybe

    Id like to note that i set the boost controller target above what it can read, and the duty cycle to 100%

    Also my timing was overly safe because I didnt know what to expect 100% which surely caused some boost spiking.
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  18. #68
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    Just checked my original post and i see the cams were different. I was told those specs but never measured them before a few months back.

    Also I think I had pretty good wheel slip on the road by 20 psi. Marginally different altitude and temperatures.
    1989 535i - sold
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    1998 Turbo: PTE6870 | 1.15 ar | Hp Cover, Custom Divided T4 bottom-mount, 3.5" SS exhaust, Dual Turbosmart Compgates, Turbosmart Raceport BOV, 3.5" Treadstone Intercooler, 3.5" Vibrant resonator and muffler, Arp 2k Headstuds | Arp 2k Main studs | 87mm Je pistons | Eagle rods | 9.2:1 static compression, Ces 87mm cutring, Custom solid rear subframe bushings, Akg 85d diff bushings, 4 clutch 3.15 diff, , Poly engine mounts, UUC trans mounts W/ enforcers, 22RPD OBD2 Stock ECU id1700 E85 tune, 22RPD Big power Transmission swap w/ GS6-53

  19. #69
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    Updated:


  20. #70
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    I was going through some data logs, and found some interesting data.

    RPM @ 10.0 PSI

    3rd Gear = 3856

    4th Gear = 3460

    5th Gear = 3283


    I use 4th gear to generate meaningful data, but most of my street pulls are made in 3rd gear for tuning purposes.

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    I like standardized boost tests—good way to compare turbo responses. We all can go for a drive to note the rpm at which we hit 15 psi in 3rd, 4th and 5th, starting from a steady 2000 rpm, even if we don’t have a datalogger. Dynoloading may not be the same as level street results, and data logging may be slightly different from watching and noting.

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    Has anyone done any clean up around the waste gate port to promote better flow to the wastegate or am I the guinea pig?

  23. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by pbonsalb View Post
    I like standardized boost tests—good way to compare turbo responses. We all can go for a drive to note the rpm at which we hit 15 psi in 3rd, 4th and 5th, starting from a steady 2000 rpm, even if we don’t have a datalogger. Dynoloading may not be the same as level street results, and data logging may be slightly different from watching and noting.
    I think there is far more deviation in hitting boost levels than people are either admitting to, or are aware of. You can certainly trick a pull to achieve a certain result, and that has manifested itself in data logging that I have done of back to back pulls in 4th gear on the road. The total gear ratio applied to the engine, and how much weight and aerodynamic drag are present can affect things a huge amount. In the end, I think my data is my data, and can't be used for meaningful comparison unless you can replicate the test conditions precisely. I'm here to say that I can't.....not with the car on the road....in normal driving conditions. I think that if you remove the standard of deviation, and just take your best pull, it does represent the peak of the combinations performance. Just not the average, or what can be reasonably expected...

    And a puzzle for the inclined: Why do turbine flow maps show maximum flow rates roughly 1/2 to 1/3 the mass flow rate of the compressor wheel? My M1 ECU calculates exhaust mass flow in g/sec, and when you convert it to lbs/min, it far exceeds the flow rate shown on the turbine map of all the Garrett turbos I've used. What's up with that?

  24. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by PEI330Ci View Post
    And a puzzle for the inclined: Why do turbine flow maps show maximum flow rates roughly 1/2 to 1/3 the mass flow rate of the compressor wheel? My M1 ECU calculates exhaust mass flow in g/sec, and when you convert it to lbs/min, it far exceeds the flow rate shown on the turbine map of all the Garrett turbos I've used. What's up with that?
    A good question, and one that I have pondered as well...I can only surmise that the answer is all the waste gate.

    Within practical limits, the turbine can continue to do work despite the max mass flow having been reached. At this point, additional work requires more Delta-P? This would be seen as an escalating back pressure and a falling VE.

    Talking outta my butt here! :-P
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nutzy View Post
    A good question, and one that I have pondered as well...I can only surmise that the answer is all the waste gate.

    Within practical limits, the turbine can continue to do work despite the max mass flow having been reached. At this point, additional work requires more Delta-P? This would be seen as an escalating back pressure and a falling VE.

    Talking outta my butt here! :-P
    One thing to consider is that as the inlet pressure ratio increases, it needs more drive torque to spin the compressor wheel. The turbine maps that we are shown have a peak mass flow rate the seems to flat-line at a pressure ratio of 2.5 for most housings, so where does this additional drive torque come from as the turbine housing is limited in flow?

    What I'm guessing, is that a pressure ratio of 2.5 on the turbine is as high as they have tested, and that in reality, the pressure differential across the turbine is greater.

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