540i P1346 and P1347 cyl 3 misfire after timing chain guides + vanos

[joekitch]

oh no he's got the tools, and has done plenty of valve jobs on the m62 before
this is their bimmershops page
https://www.bimmershops.com/massachu...e-worcester-ma

[joekitch]

update on this;
just finished pulling the cylinder head. that sucker's heavy and a real lower back killer getting it out of the bay, oof.

but yep, cylinder 3 exhaust valves are bent, but SUPER slightly, in fact i had to look rather closely to see the bend
also there's literally zero piston dome damage, it must have been something(s) that got stuck on the exhaust valve seats

IMG_20180113_185822.jpg
IMG_20180113_185833.jpg
IMG_20180113_185750.jpg







Next up, removing the cam shafts, keeping the cam caps in order, as well as the lifter buckets which i believe also need to be in order?

also i noticed some surface rust on the cam lobes which is concerning, i guess because we had some HEAVY rainy yesterday and some water leaked into my garage area

on monday, hopefully, i can drop the cylinder head off at the shop

[geargrinder]

Well at least now you'll be an M62TU pro!

Yes. The ideal is to always track and match all parts. Even bolts and such (like in case you later notice damage to a bolt thread you know what hole it might correspond to etc). Use egg cartons is an old trick for parts that will fit, also cardboard boxes with sharpie labels etc. and punching holes in cardboard labeled for bolts to go into.

You have the manual for the procedure Joe? Be sure to progressively loosen all the nuts so the camshaft isn't tweaked.

My money is still on a whack and not on debris (this easily might not leave marks in case like this), but at this point seems there will never be evidence one way or another.

[JimLev]

That head and pistons have a lot of carbon on them. The other head is probably the same.
If this was my engine I'd pull the other head to clean all that carbon off.
At this point it's just a little more time and another head gasket.
Do it.

and new head bolts.

[joekitch]

i suppose so jim but, that's going to be another time when it's not so darn cold
also, i have zero interest in pulling another exhaust manifold, that was awful

just gunna get these valves replaced, replace the head gasket, head bolts, and some other stuff i removed and then i want to drive my darn car again
haven't heard from CW for more than a week though, hope he's ok

[JimLev]

Forgot about the exhaust manifold, that side is a real PITA to take off. Had to do some of them blind from under the car.

[joekitch]

so you mean pull the other head without taking the manifold off?
i don't want to think of how mangled my back would be after attempting that

[geargrinder]

i suppose so jim but, that's going to be another time when it's not so darn cold

There's never gonna be "another time" like this. Pulling heads blows but you've got most of the work done. I mean I might skip it myself but it's worth considering.

[JimLev]

so you mean pull the other head without taking the manifold off?
i don't want to think of how mangled my back would be after attempting that

No, was just saying its a PITA to get the bank 2 manifold off.
You'd never get the head off with the exh manifold attached.

[dannyzabolotny]

Honestly I would have just pulled the engine and trans if I had to remove the heads. Undoing a couple of easily accessible bolts and pulling out the drivetrain as once piece seems a lot easier than the Chinese finger trap that is pulling an M62tu head in the car.

[joekitch]

if i had the space and equipment to pull the drivetrain i totally would, would have made the TCGs super easy too

[joekitch]

oh,well, um, ok
this is from the actual bentley manual for the e39 touring by the way



m62tu camshaft removal is SOL.jpg

[joekitch]

Alright, cam shafts are off with their paired cam caps and lifters, and stored in a nice covered box. lifter springs on cylinder 3 valves look fine
cylinder head is in the trunk of my car covered in a trash bag on top of some packing packer on top of some towels, trying to keep it as clean as possible until tomorrow when i can drop it off


but reviewing the pictures i took, i only JUST noticed, there are imprints of the piston dome cutouts on the two exhaust valves, i can't believe i didn't notice it before. So that strongly indicates it wasn't a debris problem but actually a timing problem, although a very very slight one.



IMG_20180113_185833.jpg

[philly98540]

Well at least you know now. Where are you getting new valves from?

[Mach540]

oh,well, um, ok
this is from the actual bentley manual for the e39 touring by the way



m62tu camshaft removal is SOL.jpg

I'd bet they are talking about the timing blocks when they refer to "special tools."

[joekitch]

Well at least you know now. Where are you getting new valves from?

assuming joe doesn't have a few available i'll get them off FCP
might as well replace both springs, upper and lower retainers, and keepers right? once a valve is bent i don't really trust any hardware that might have been damaged along with it

edit:
phew, uh, turns out replacing all the hardware from two valves including lifters on fcp is $180, yikes

[JimLev]

You don't need any special tools to remove/install the cams. As, I think GG said above, just loosen (removing cam) or tighten (installing cam) all the cam caps a little at a time going back and forth. This will put even pressure on the lobes from the valves.
When you install the cam caps have all the bolts finger tight, then use your socket to turn each bolt one turn front of head to back of head. Then go back to the front and repeat.
I've done it this way about 15+ times, never had a problem.

I'd just replace the 2 valves. They bend just where the stem connects to the back of the valve. The rest of the valve stem will be straight.

[geargrinder]

Yeah the springs and keepers will all be fine I have no doubt. Might want to do the seals and guides tho.

[joekitch]

alright, so, some more details i didn't think were important at the time, but might be more important now
initially when we timed the engine, cw reversed the intake and exhaust cam lock blocks by accident (one's labeled E, for the intake(?) and the other is A, for the exhaust (??) ), or more specifically he didn't remember if he did them right, so he came back a week later to put them on correctly and time it again to be certain. the difference in cam position is very slight between the two, but..

also when i was turning the engine by hand with my 1/2" ratchet wrench after we had timed it and we were doing the normal spin three revolutions thing, i remember feeling extra resistance at one point followed by a soft clang sound which i assumed was cw tapping the locking pin on the flywheel to get it into position BUT, maybe that was the sound of the valve bending while it was slightly out of time? CW to his credit has never seen or heard of someone causing a valve bend by just rotating the engine by hand but maybe when the timing difference is so slight, it needs very little force to bend by hand? That'd also explain why there's no valve bending sounds on first start, because they were already bent

I'm basically spitballing at this point and it doesn't change the fact that valves must be changed

[JimLev]

Ah, now we know why. The 3-4 degrees the cams were off were probably enough to do it.

[joekitch]

yes but that means i had to have bent the valves using only the rotational force of a half inch ratchet wrench with a 12 inch handle, which does not seem like enough force, unless the valves are actually pretty easy to bend?

[StRaNgEdAyS]

They are

Sent from my G8141 using Tapatalk

[Mach540]

AND, as the piston travels across TDC, it has a huge mechanical advantage on anything in its way.

5 degrees of rotation on either side of TDC only moves the piston .006".
(Yes, I calculated it)

[Mach540]

The A and E are German.
Ausfahrt is "exit" or exhaust
Einfahrt is "enter" or intake

Lots of towns along the autobahn appear to be named Ausfahrt.

[geargrinder]

alright, so, some more details i didn't think were important at the time, but might be more important now
initially when we timed the engine, cw reversed the intake and exhaust cam lock blocks by accident (one's labeled E, for the intake(?) and the other is A, for the exhaust (??) ), or more specifically he didn't remember if he did them right, so he came back a week later to put them on correctly and time it again to be certain. the difference in cam position is very slight between the two, but..

also when i was turning the engine by hand with my 1/2" ratchet wrench after we had timed it and we were doing the normal spin three revolutions thing, i remember feeling extra resistance at one point followed by a soft clang sound which i assumed was cw tapping the locking pin on the flywheel to get it into position BUT, maybe that was the sound of the valve bending while it was slightly out of time? CW to his credit has never seen or heard of someone causing a valve bend by just rotating the engine by hand but maybe when the timing difference is so slight, it needs very little force to bend by hand? That'd also explain why there's no valve bending sounds on first start, because they were already bent

I'm basically spitballing at this point and it doesn't change the fact that valves must be changed

SMH. OK. Well there we go.

yes but that means i had to have bent the valves using only the rotational force of a half inch ratchet wrench with a 12 inch handle, which does not seem like enough force, unless the valves are actually pretty easy to bend?

Yep. As I told you before.

Gee now that I think of it, I remember that GG mentioned several times how very easy it was to bend a valve. Of course he's been saying all along it was almost certainly a piston-contact event. So kudos to him for calling it all along. How is it that he's so right so often!? Amazing.

No problem my friend. Happy to help.