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Thread: Beginners Cheap Turbo Setup Help

  1. #1
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    Beginners Cheap Turbo Setup Help

    Hi everyone, if any of the experienced people here want to give me a hand, it would be very well appreciated since sometime in future I'm planning an M52B28 build or an m50 depending on the model year car I get.
    (if mods feel this post is intrusive or in the wrong place, feel free to delete)

    Since money is tight, I'm looking to do a "cheap" turbo build, and had some questions or that could maybe help me be linked to a completed build with similar parts. In general, I was thinking of keeping everything mostly stock, other than most likely a cut ring head gasket or cometic, h-beam rods, s52 forged crank, and obviously new injectors, pump, and clutch. Pistons will most likely stay stock and the turbo will be something like a higher quality ebay one like the gt3582r or something smaller. My power goals are a reliable 350-400 HP with stock pistons and everything else I mentioned. If there was a similar build or if someone has similar experience, I'd love to see you're build thread so I can try to get more educated on this whole topic because its a lot to grasp, especially all the minor details. I also understand that ebay kits aren't praised here, but how is the CXRacing Top Mount GT35 kit seen around here ($1350), I'm planning a top mount and was just checking .

    So if anyone wants to help or point me in the right direction, I'd be much obliged. Thanks!

  2. #2
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    Skip the rods and crank. No need to even pull the engine for anything under 600whp. A 2.8 with a mls or cutring and spacer and a 6262 or a 5858.

    Sent from my E6782 using Tapatalk
    Last edited by Butters Stoch; 12-16-2017 at 02:44 PM.
    1996 332IS
    Built 3.2
    CES/Steed TS Precision 6466, spraying a "$π!℅" load of meth.
    Technique Tuning 80# tune.
    1/4 mile 10.84 @ 136.72
    Your 1 and only stop for all your BMW performance needs
    WWW.CESMOTORSPORT.COM

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Butters Stoch View Post
    Skip the rods and crank. No need to even pull the engine for anything under 600whp. A 2.8 with a mls or cutring and spacer and a 6262 or a 5858.

    Sent from my E6782 using Tapatalk
    Well that considerably lowers the cost of other parts meaning I can actually afford the Precision 5858. Would you recommend the .63 or the .82 a/r with the 4 bolt outlet and T3 flange with an exhaust manifold like this? Sorry for all the questions, I'm just trying to get all my research started on a good platform

  4. #4
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    ^ 500whp on stock M52 rods

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Substance D View Post



    ^ 500whp on stock M52 rods
    Its been done beyond a stupid amount of times. 500hp can easily be had with proper tuning and a well sorted out kit. I would not hesitate to do it one bit. I have done it for 40+k with a unopened 300k M52 and a 35r. Then got greedy and wanted 700. But the m52 is still healthy sitting on a stand in my garage.

    Sent from my E6782 using Tapatalk
    1996 332IS
    Built 3.2
    CES/Steed TS Precision 6466, spraying a "$π!℅" load of meth.
    Technique Tuning 80# tune.
    1/4 mile 10.84 @ 136.72
    Your 1 and only stop for all your BMW performance needs
    WWW.CESMOTORSPORT.COM

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Substance D View Post



    ^ 500whp on stock M52 rods
    '

    What an awful sight, good thing I'm only trying to do 350-400 whp. Can't be throwing a rod any time soon.

  7. #7
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    Bad tune or runaway boost could bend rods. I made 600 rwhp on stock rods and about 550 lbs rwtq, but I suggest sticking with 500 rwhp and 500 lbs rwtq. Run the cut ring and spacer and arp studs, use a spa manifold and maybe a PT5858 or similar size T3 turbo.

  8. #8
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    Hey, lets post pics of destruction but not specifics!

    Substance D,

    great picture, but who tuned? How many miles on motor? What setup?

    The picture is good and all but it doesn't really help anybody without details. The guy wants to boost his car so along with your pic why don't you explain to everyone how that happened and what you would do to prevent it?

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by pbonsalb View Post
    Bad tune or runaway boost could bend rods. I made 600 rwhp on stock rods and about 550 lbs rwtq, but I suggest sticking with 500 rwhp and 500 lbs rwtq. Run the cut ring and spacer and arp studs, use a spa manifold and maybe a PT5858 or similar size T3 turbo.
    With the PT585 would .63 or .82 a/r be better. For the tuner, I had RK or Rajis TRM in mind.

    Also, I'm not sure if what I'm trying to accomplish can be done with a stock ECU, but if not then Megasquirt is the next step
    Last edited by finsky; 12-16-2017 at 04:58 PM. Reason: Added info about ECU

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Butters Stoch View Post
    Its been done beyond a stupid amount of times. 500hp can easily be had with proper tuning and a well sorted out kit. I would not hesitate to do it one bit. I have done it for 40+k with a unopened 300k M52 and a 35r. Then got greedy and wanted 700. But the m52 is still healthy sitting on a stand in my garage.

    Sent from my E6782 using Tapatalk
    the giant hole in my block respectfully disagrees with you.


    Quote Originally Posted by finsky View Post
    '

    What an awful sight, good thing I'm only trying to do 350-400 whp. Can't be throwing a rod any time soon.
    I ran 350whp on stock m50tu bottom end pump gas for 3+ years, no problem. Till it blew a couple ringlands due to detonation caused by faulty dme coolant sensor.



    Quote Originally Posted by 328iFun View Post
    Hey, lets post pics of destruction but not specifics!

    Substance D,

    great picture, but who tuned? How many miles on motor? What setup?

    The picture is good and all but it doesn't really help anybody without details. The guy wants to boost his car so along with your pic why don't you explain to everyone how that happened and what you would do to prevent it?

    m52b28 bottom end, m50tu head. standard comp, e85, t3/t4 turbo, tuned by me on Ms2/extra, safe afr, reasonable timing. was running 19psi daily, approx 450whp, even did a drift day like that, leaning on it for hours, see vids. One day, I was driving it around as I frequently do, I laid into boost, heard the overboost (spool sounded different) and that was it, sh*t a rod out the side. After checking logs, it appeared that the EBC i was using malfunctioned, and ran up to 24psi, (i.e.) not a huge difference, especially considering the turbo is efficient up to 22psi, iat's were fine, afr was fine, timing was fine, no det. Not an oiling issue, the big end spun freely around the crank. No signs of det anywhere in the head or rest of pistons. Leaves me to conclude it was a material fatigue strength issue.

  11. #11
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    The size of the AR will dictate your power band and peak power. IE the smaller AR will spool faster but will not make as much peak power as the .82. My suggestion would be to get the .63 with a 5858 on a 2.8L. You will have great power, could easily make 400whp and it will spool like a bastard. It would be maybe the best all around STI killing setup for the money. Don't over think it. Here is your part list, just pay for it and thank us later.

    As Phil mentioned, Cutring/spacer/ARP from CES Motorsports.
    I'll source the turbo for you Garrett GTW 5857 .63 or Precision 5858 .63AR.
    Buy a stage 3 FX racing clutch with chromoly flywheel. TRM or Technica tuning would be fine. Unless you can talk John from CES into selling you a NickG tune. That would be even better. Get a eBay 3" intercooler and a SPA bottom mount manifold.

    Done.

    Sent from my E6782 using Tapatalk
    1996 332IS
    Built 3.2
    CES/Steed TS Precision 6466, spraying a "$π!℅" load of meth.
    Technique Tuning 80# tune.
    1/4 mile 10.84 @ 136.72
    Your 1 and only stop for all your BMW performance needs
    WWW.CESMOTORSPORT.COM

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Substance D View Post
    the giant hole in my block respectfully disagrees with you.




    I ran 350whp on stock m50tu bottom end pump gas for 3+ years, no problem. Till it blew a couple ringlands due to detonation caused by faulty dme coolant sensor.






    m52b28 bottom end, m50tu head. standard comp, e85, t3/t4 turbo, tuned by me on Ms2/extra, safe afr, reasonable timing. was running 19psi daily, approx 450whp, even did a drift day like that, leaning on it for hours, see vids. One day, I was driving it around as I frequently do, I laid into boost, heard the overboost (spool sounded different) and that was it, sh*t a rod out the side. After checking logs, it appeared that the EBC i was using malfunctioned, and ran up to 24psi, (i.e.) not a huge difference, especially considering the turbo is efficient up to 22psi, iat's were fine, afr was fine, timing was fine, no det. Not an oiling issue, the big end spun freely around the crank. No signs of det anywhere in the head or rest of pistons. Leaves me to conclude it was a material fatigue strength issue.
    Like I said, bad tune or not sorted. Yours wasn't sorted. Any and every car out there can blowup due to hardware or software issues. The fact is that your rods and block didn't blow apart cause of your 350 something hp. Its not like you blew the welds off your manifold or something.


    Sent from my E6782 using Tapatalk
    1996 332IS
    Built 3.2
    CES/Steed TS Precision 6466, spraying a "$π!℅" load of meth.
    Technique Tuning 80# tune.
    1/4 mile 10.84 @ 136.72
    Your 1 and only stop for all your BMW performance needs
    WWW.CESMOTORSPORT.COM

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Butters Stoch View Post
    Like I said, bad tune or not sorted. Yours wasn't sorted. Any and every car out there can blowup due to hardware or software issues. The fact is that your rods and block didn't blow apart cause of your 350 something hp. Its not like you blew the welds off your manifold or something.


    Sent from my E6782 using Tapatalk
    Cool story bro.

    My entire point for this kid is, in the REAL WORLD, sh*t happens, things are going to go wrong. Especially if you drive your car more than 1/4mile at a time. Are you going to dmm every sensor in your car before you drive it? No. So if you have the money, and were prepared to tear into the bottom end, why wouldn't you, so that when things inevitably go wrong, you motor hopefully stays together.

    -end

  14. #14
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    Yup,

    I always admit that I am new to FI before posting...

    But from what I've read the very few rare times that I've seen total failures is either because:

    a. Bad tune
    b. Bad hardware
    c. Uneducated owner (bolting overly sized/cheap turbos to stock motors and then asking it to produce X amount of power outside of what is recommended here on the forums) or novice tuner

    I'm going with Butters with a combination of both parts a. and b.

    Conservatively speaking, as mentioned earlier the stock M/S engines can make fun and reliable power like any other motor with pressure applied to them as long as good hardware/software utilized

    My build is a perfect example. I've been beating on it for over 1000+ miles with zero issues (knock on wood) and its a internet build (help from guys on here) by myself (originally, a non-mechanically inclined person) and it hits 16+ PSI on 93 oct on 9:0:1 spacer/cutring combo probably making 350-400 on a base tune. It gets my adrenaline going every time I drive it and other guys roll their windows down when near them

    Its discouraging when guys come here and post pics of their bent rods/carnage when there isn't evidence of their builds or as to why it actually happened. Just make sure your shit is within spec you'll be 'aight'
    Last edited by 328iFun; 12-16-2017 at 05:52 PM.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Butters Stoch View Post
    The size of the AR will dictate your power band and peak power. IE the smaller AR will spool faster but will not make as much peak power as the .82. My suggestion would be to get the .63 with a 5858 on a 2.8L. You will have great power, could easily make 400whp and it will spool like a bastard. It would be maybe the best all around STI killing setup for the money. Don't over think it. Here is your part list, just pay for it and thank us later.

    As Phil mentioned, Cutring/spacer/ARP from CES Motorsports.
    I'll source the turbo for you Garrett GTW 5857 .63 or Precision 5858 .63AR.
    Buy a stage 3 FX racing clutch with chromoly flywheel. TRM or Technica tuning would be fine. Unless you can talk John from CES into selling you a NickG tune. That would be even better. Get a eBay 3" intercooler and a SPA bottom mount manifold.

    Done.

    Sent from my E6782 using Tapatalk
    Butters, this has been some of the best help that I've received regarding my questions toward a turbo build, thank you! I'll definitely be contacting you about the turbo when I've gotten the car and saved enough money (hopefully something comes up after my year and a half of craigslist searching and classifieds ads soon) and then I'll get to building. I was actually planning on doing a top mount exhaust manifold from SPA, just because I want to see that turbo every time I pop the hood lol. Getting the head resurfaced and milled along with valve seals is also a must, correct?

  16. #16
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    Fact of the matter is 350 HP/TQ isn't going to be the reason why stock rods bend. You can spend $10k on a built motor and if you have detonation like shown above cause your car isn't sorted out, it's going to be costly.

    Sent from my E6782 using Tapatalk
    1996 332IS
    Built 3.2
    CES/Steed TS Precision 6466, spraying a "$π!℅" load of meth.
    Technique Tuning 80# tune.
    1/4 mile 10.84 @ 136.72
    Your 1 and only stop for all your BMW performance needs
    WWW.CESMOTORSPORT.COM

  17. #17
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    Yes,

    when I first saw at the picture I thought detonation but I wanted to wait for someone more knowledgeable to mention it first

    Likely due to lean condition, timing, bad fuel, or hardware cutout (fuel pump problem)

    my .02
    Last edited by 328iFun; 12-16-2017 at 06:11 PM.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Butters Stoch View Post
    Fact of the matter is 350 HP/TQ isn't going to be the reason why stock rods bend. You can spend $10k on a built motor and if you have detonation like shown above cause your car isn't sorted out, it's going to be costly.

    Sent from my E6782 using Tapatalk

    I going to make this short and sweet, since you seem to have trouble reading. I threw a rod at 500WHP



    Quote Originally Posted by 328iFun View Post
    Yes,

    when I first saw at the picture I thought detonation but I wanted to wait for someone more knowledgeable to mention it first

    Likely due to lean condition, timing, bad fuel, or hardware cutout (fuel pump problem)

    my .02


    Here's the piston from the that cylinder. Other than the damage from the rod, kissing the valves, and being wedged in the cylinder, no other damage...no signs of DET. So you really think, I had soooo much det, I broke a forged steel rod, but left the CAST ALUMINUM piston unscathed. No. Generally you break the ringland with det (i've done it), also damage the surface, and in really bad cases can melt a hole right through.


    The reason I am responding like this, is to set the record straight and because i am really tired of guys like you and butters, spreading mis-information, and driving people who actually know what their talking about, away from the forums. The fact is, you guys know NOTHING about MY setup, and I know everything. So maybe you should read carefully (butters) and listen, and learn.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Substance D View Post
    I going to make this short and sweet, since you seem to have trouble reading. I threw a rod at 500WHP







    Here's the piston from the that cylinder. Other than the damage from the rod, kissing the valves, and being wedged in the cylinder, no other damage...no signs of DET. So you really think, I had soooo much det, I broke a forged steel rod, but left the CAST ALUMINUM piston unscathed. No. Generally you break the ringland with det (i've done it), also damage the surface, and in really bad cases can melt a hole right through.


    The reason I am responding like this, is to set the record straight and because i am really tired of guys like you and butters, spreading mis-information, and driving people who actually know what their talking about, away from the forums. The fact is, you guys know NOTHING about MY setup, and I know everything. So maybe you should read carefully (butters) and listen, and learn.
    Who is this jackass? Butters is one of the most influential and helpful members on this forum. He has his hand in more than you can imagine, and has been in the e36 game longer than most members have had their drivers license.

    Sent from my VS987 using Tapatalk

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Substance D View Post
    I going to make this short and sweet, since you seem to have trouble reading. I threw a rod at 500WHP







    Here's the piston from the that cylinder. Other than the damage from the rod, kissing the valves, and being wedged in the cylinder, no other damage...no signs of DET. So you really think, I had soooo much det, I broke a forged steel rod, but left the CAST ALUMINUM piston unscathed. No. Generally you break the ringland with det (i've done it), also damage the surface, and in really bad cases can melt a hole right through.


    The reason I am responding like this, is to set the record straight and because i am really tired of guys like you and butters, spreading mis-information, and driving people who actually know what their talking about, away from the forums. The fact is, you guys know NOTHING about MY setup, and I know everything. So maybe you should read carefully (butters) and listen, and learn.
    Don't really need to learn in this case sir. I've been there and done that long ago with a stock m52 and over 500hp for 40,000 miles. It got boring and wanted 700whp. M52's don't make the TQ that S52's do, especially when shooting for 400hp. I'm sorry you blew up a motor. But your unfortunate events do not mean that everyone will have the same experience. I could search and list at least 50 maybe closer to 100 members just on this forum alone that have made 500hp on stock internals. I'm not sure what your getting at here, but recommending rods and pistons for a simple 350-400hp e36 is insanity. Its just unneeded and a waste of money. There are many members here myself included that have spent loads of money figuring out what works and what doesn't , what's needed and what's not so the new guys can learn from our wasted spending.

    Sent from my E6782 using Tapatalk
    1996 332IS
    Built 3.2
    CES/Steed TS Precision 6466, spraying a "$π!℅" load of meth.
    Technique Tuning 80# tune.
    1/4 mile 10.84 @ 136.72
    Your 1 and only stop for all your BMW performance needs
    WWW.CESMOTORSPORT.COM

  21. #21
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    Not to interrupt this argument lol, but I hear some people remove Vanos when doing turbo builds. Is that something you guys have done or that people here do?

  22. #22
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    You blew your motor because ur an idiot not because you were at the power limitations of the rods.

    I hate when people spread misinformation to people looking to learn.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Don’t remove your vanos.

  23. #23
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    Alright thanks I was just wondering because I heard about some people doing it, thanks.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Butters Stoch View Post
    Don't really need to learn in this case sir. I've been there and done that long ago with a stock m52 and over 500hp for 40,000 miles. It got boring and wanted 700whp. M52's don't make the TQ that S52's do, especially when shooting for 400hp. I'm sorry you blew up a motor. But your unfortunate events do not mean that everyone will have the same experience. I could search and list at least 50 maybe closer to 100 members just on this forum alone that have made 500hp on stock internals. I'm not sure what your getting at here, but recommending rods and pistons for a simple 350-400hp e36 is insanity. Its just unneeded and a waste of money. There are many members here myself included that have spent loads of money figuring out what works and what doesn't , what's needed and what's not so the new guys can learn from our wasted spending.

    Sent from my E6782 using Tapatalk
    That was a very sensible thing to say. I respectfully disagreed with you earlier, before you started talking smack about my setup and my tune. The kid was already going to do rods, you were talking him out of it, I was just adding my perspective to the mix by posting that pic. Thats as far I was going to go. We can agree to disagree. However, I think we can all agree, it starts at 350, and then you want 400, 450, 550, 700....



    Quote Originally Posted by GT35Rm3 View Post
    You blew your motor because ur an idiot not because you were at the power limitations of the rods.

    I hate when people spread misinformation to people looking to learn.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Don’t remove your vanos.
    Thanks for reminding me why I love BF/FI

  25. #25
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    Maybe if you came around more, listened to the people that have been there and done that, and did some research you wouldn’t have pictures of a blown motor to share from a mistake you made.

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