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Thread: Barnfind 1981 Euro e24. Power plant options... Insight requested

  1. #26
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    A correction to Desktop Dave. The last M90 motors, meaning pre June of 81, do not have a raised water passage on the drivers side of the block. My Euro May of 81 car has Motronic and a verified original M90 based on the proper vin stamped on the block and also through Mobil Traditions in Germany. Also when I opened the engine for a total rebuild, the stampings on the pistons also showed it to be an M90
    Last edited by Bert Poliakoff; 12-17-2017 at 05:47 PM.
    81 Euro undergoing total nut and bolt restoration
    pictures at: flickr.com/photos/bertsphotos

  2. #27
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    I have found this to be true also^^. Almost like they used up all of the last blocks with the raised water packages and decided to go with the later block casting when they switched to Motronic.

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bert Poliakoff View Post
    A correction to Desktop Dave. The last M90 motors, meaning pre June of 81, do not have a raised water passage on the drivers side of the block. My Eurp May of 81 car has Motronic and a verified original M90 based on the proper vin stamped on the block and also through Mobil Traditions in Germany. Also when I opened the engine for a total rebuild, the stampings on the pistons also showed it to be an M90
    Hmmm. I wasn't aware of that. I'll update my information, maybe post it on the Wikipedia page too. So the M90 ended mid-81? I pulled a Euro motor dated May '82, there's no chance of it being an M90, is there? It's a little tired, when I pull it out for a rebuild, I'll verify the parts.

    Sorry for the thread-jack!

  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bert Poliakoff View Post
    A correction to Desktop Dave. The last M90 motors, meaning pre June of 81, do not have a raised water passage on the drivers side of the block. My Eurp May of 81 car has Motronic and a verified original M90 based on the proper vin stamped on the block and also through Mobil Traditions in Germany. Also when I opened the engine for a total rebuild, the stampings on the pistons also showed it to be an M90
    This makes sense. All signs pointed to it being a M90 other then the long raised water passage that I had read about in several places. To confuse me even more, both of the M30B30 engines I have at home that came with my Bavaria do have the longer raised water passages. So I was, and still am, slightly confused on how using the water passage helps distinguish a M90 from a M30.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Just to be clear, the engine in my 635 does not have the long raised water passage.
    Last edited by iamthejmsnyder; 12-17-2017 at 12:36 AM. Reason: gramar

  5. #30
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    Also the raised water passage is only relevant if the block is cast with 3.5. If it isn't 3.5 you know it won't be an M90 unless somebody has modified the block to accept the larger pistons...

    The way I could tell that it was an M90 is that the car is a euro spec 635 with E12 based chassis but Motronic engine control. It is a motronic engine with vacuum brakes. Also the intake manifold doesn't have the support bars like on US spec cars that go from the valve cover to the top of the intake and house the speed/ref sensors and diagnostic connector. Instead the sensors have their own unique bracket and the diagnostic connector is close to the CTS.
    Last edited by tschultz; 12-17-2017 at 11:05 AM.

  6. #31
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    I have some old Neutronics documentation from my former 745 which was indeed hooked up when the car was converted. It was designed to read an O2 sensor and fake a non lamda computer into altering mix by faking the engine temp. If installed properly, it did involve some wiring alterations, so that would need to be restored. I also have a wiring diagram for a molex plug that can be inserted instead of the box and also works to restore the factory wiring. I used to have to run with the Johnson box for emission testing, then would promptly "unplug" it. PM me with your email and I can send you copies.
    Dave

    '87 M6, '95 M3, '04 325XiT. '15 328XiT


  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by tschultz View Post
    The way I could tell that it was an M90 is that the car is a euro spec 635 with E12 based chassis but Motronic engine control. It is a motronic engine with vacuum brakes. Also the intake manifold doesn't have the support bars like on US spec cars that go from the valve cover to the top of the intake and house the speed/ref sensors and diagnostic connector. Instead the sensors have their own unique bracket and the diagnostic connector is close to the CTS.
    This sounds like my car exactly.

    Quote Originally Posted by arctic745 View Post
    I have some old Neutronics documentation from my former 745 which was indeed hooked up when the car was converted. It was designed to read an O2 sensor and fake a non lamda computer into altering mix by faking the engine temp. If installed properly, it did involve some wiring alterations, so that would need to be restored. I also have a wiring diagram for a molex plug that can be inserted instead of the box and also works to restore the factory wiring. I used to have to run with the Johnson box for emission testing, then would promptly "unplug" it. PM me with your email and I can send you copies.
    Seeing as this car originally went to Florida then made its way to rural Pennsylvania, emissions would have never been a concern. Pennsylvania only has emissions testing in a few counties. I live in Allegheny county where the car can be emissions exempt as long as I put less than 5,000 miles a year on it. Therefore I'll do my best to remove any trace of the Johnson Boxes.

  8. #33
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    The build sheets will show these motors as an M30. When I first got into my car, knowing nothing about early BMWs,found out that the '81s came with Motronic, I was told by many people that the car was a "red headed stepchild" and had been modified. Well as you now see that was incorrect. Several emails with Andreas Hartz, head of mobil traditions, confirmed that the '81 model year 635s had factory Motronic. It was a 1 year only option on the pre 82 cars. It even has a one year only engine harness.
    81 Euro undergoing total nut and bolt restoration
    pictures at: flickr.com/photos/bertsphotos

  9. #34
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    For what's it's worth, I sure hope this is an M90! How sweet would that be? Are you going to register it as a Classic? Cheap insurance...low fees...haven't done it myself, but I've been very tempted.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bert Poliakoff View Post
    The build sheets will show these motors as an M30. When I first got into my car, knowing nothing about early BMWs,found out that the '81s came with Motronic, I was told by many people that the car was a "red headed stepchild" and had been modified. Well as you now see that was incorrect. Several emails with Andreas Hartz, head of mobil traditions, confirmed that the '81 model year 635s had factory Motronic. It was a 1 year only option on the pre 82 cars. It even has a one year only engine harness.
    I also found the same thing out the hard way. My first E24 was a US market 633CSi, build date 11/81. E12 chassis car with a Motronic M30B32. I thought it had a later engine swapped in, kinda wondered why they'd choose a US-spec B32. Specific documentation was very hard to find, I ended up cobbling together E12 chassis data and E28 engine data.

  10. #35
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    I figured I'd update where I'm at with my car. After changing the plugs and running the car for a while, I took the plugs out to see if they're all firing. All the plugs were darkened on the end except for the #5 cylinder plug, still clean and shinny. There was clearly no combustion happening in that cylinder. However, the end of the plug was dripping with fuel and there was fuel sitting on top of the piston in the cylinder. I did a compression test and all cylinders were exactly the same at 165psi. Then I checked for spark with every wire and they all delivered spark to the plug. So all cylinders have spark, compression, and fuel but for some reason nothing is happening in #5. My best guess is that the injector is just spitting un-atomized fuel into the cylinder. I hooked it all back up and still seems to be running on 5 cylinders. Keep in mind these are almost surly the original fuel injectors that sat with fuel in them for 17 years. I cleaned them out best I could before I got the car running. What are my options as far as fuel injectors go? Does anyone know the part numbers for M90 fuel injectors? Any time I Google anything involving "M90" it only brings up results pertaining to the "E90" 3 series and an M90 Eaton Supercharger which is no help. I know the Ford injectors are popular but all the ones I can find seem to be High Impedance. From my research, I found that, generally, high impedance injectors should work in low impedance applications but not the other way around. However I also read that high impedance injectors won't work with BMW low impedance systems. That said, the material I read about them working had several reasons why they should work just fine while the material I read that said they would not work just said they would't work and gave no reason why. Is it worth trying the easy to find Ford injectors? Or should I hunt down the proper low impedance injectors?

    Honestly if I can't find the right injectors for less than $25 a piece, then I'm probably going to tear it all off and sell the DME. Then put that money towards triple side draft Webers and MegaSquirt to control the spark and have the coolest e24 around.

  11. #36
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    The injectors on a Motronic M90 are low impedance versus high impedance on the post 83 cars. Five0motorsports are a highly regarded provider of fuel injector, both restoring old ones or or providing new ones. call them and you will find a reasonable way out with them. You can google them for more info, contact etc. I have heard that a low impedance system can run high impedance injectors, but don't know how reliable that info is. Maybe Tom Schultz will chime in here.
    81 Euro undergoing total nut and bolt restoration
    pictures at: flickr.com/photos/bertsphotos

  12. #37
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    That's a win-win either way. The carbs would sound awesome, and be more or less plug and play. MS is a great choice too, from what I've heard.

    If you wanted to try a quick swap for testing, I still have a set of six used injectors from my '81 Euro B34. They're yours if you want them. IIRC they are Bosch PN 0-280-150-201, 2.8 ohm low-impedance 240cc/min @ 3BAR? I could be wrong, I'll double-check if you're interested. They're untested but surplus, since I'm already running Motronic 1.3 on that motor. They've been in storage for a year bit but I did give them a little ultrasonic bath before I put them away.

  13. #38
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    The injectors are the same as e28 533i and you can find the part numbers on realoem.com if you type in your vin and search for the inecjtor diagram.

  14. #39
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    Today I took the fuel rail back out and ran pressurized carb cleaner through them, activating them with a 9 volt battery. Sure enough, the number 5 cylinder injector was pretty gummed up. They all cleaned up nicely and have a good spray. When I took the fuel rail out though, all the pintle caps stayed in the intake manifold and the number 5 cylinder pintle cap was completely missing. I pulled them out and they were all very brittle and cracked. Also many of the O-rings were either rock hard or broken. I ordered this kit on Amazon to solve all my problems: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1 Hopefully it's just what I need.

    Quote Originally Posted by tschultz View Post
    The injectors are the same as e28 533i and you can find the part numbers on realoem.com if you type in your vin and search for the inecjtor diagram.
    Thanks for the suggestion, but RealOEM has not been very helpful with this car. I made the mistake of trusting the part numbers off of RealOEM and got the wrong distributor parts and plug wires. The injector part numbers also are different but maybe that's BMW part numbers vs. Bosch part numbers thing. When I type in the last 5 of my VIN into the website, it comes up has having a M30 in it, when I'm 99% sure it has a M90. Could this be the reason for the constant wrong part numbers?

    Quote Originally Posted by DesktopDave View Post
    If you wanted to try a quick swap for testing, I still have a set of six used injectors from my '81 Euro B34. They're yours if you want them. IIRC they are Bosch PN 0-280-150-201, 2.8 ohm low-impedance 240cc/min @ 3BAR? I could be wrong, I'll double-check if you're interested. They're untested but surplus, since I'm already running Motronic 1.3 on that motor. They've been in storage for a year bit but I did give them a little ultrasonic bath before I put them away.
    Did you get my direct message? I definitely want them. They're the same part number as the ones I took out of my car but with the lack of good pintle caps I can't put mine back in until that repair kit comes. Even with Amazon Prime it says they won't be here for at least a week. I need to have this thing running before then just so I can move it in and out of the garage so I can work on other things like my e39 which is in desperate need of a gearbox oil change.

  15. #40
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    An M90 will always show on a build sheet as an M30. I know my car is 100% original and matching numbers and the build sheet showed an M30. As to fuel injectors, I took mine to a diesel tractor supply/repair shop and they cleaned etc and I think new pintle caps and seals for around $7 per. The M90 motor uses M30 parts except for the pistons and I think the cam may be a touch more than an M30, but maybe a 264? I had mine reground to 282. I had no trouble finding parts for mine. The only problem you may find is the rotor. There are two different style rotors. One is the 81 rotor which slip fits over the end of the cam. The other is a bolt on. Probably switched midyear. I switched mine from a slip fit to the later bolt on. All it requires is changing a "plate,shaft" on the end of the cam. I am guessing that may be your problem as I believe the cap is different for each style rotor. If you go into realoem and the valve train section and keep looking, you will see the later style part that will fit the end of the cam. Easy to find used. I got mine for $10 from a guy who regularly parts cars
    81 Euro undergoing total nut and bolt restoration
    pictures at: flickr.com/photos/bertsphotos

  16. #41
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    Got the new O-rings and Pintle caps on the injectors. I installed them and the car runs like new! Took it for a drive and everything was great for about 5 minutes until the clutch decided to stop engaging. Clutch pedal feel is fine. Just little to no engagement. Worked fine until it didn't I'm guessing the pressure plate had enough. I'm quickly becoming frustrated with this car. More problems and rust everywhere I turn. Not to mention every part I order ends up being the wrong part thanks to the M90.

    If anyone wants to buy this car, now is the time to buy! I'd take what I have into it, which unfortunately, is about $4,000.

    IMG_20171229_152211.jpgIMG_20171229_152203.jpgIMG_20171229_152222.jpg

  17. #42
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    Don't pull the plug yet! If you're 100% sure about selling, I'll see if anyone local wants a clean E24. I'll pass them along to you.

  18. #43
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    clutch peddle is spring loaded so it will always feel like there is tension on it. Try the slave cylinder before you throw in the towel!
    81 Euro undergoing total nut and bolt restoration
    pictures at: flickr.com/photos/bertsphotos

  19. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bert Poliakoff View Post
    clutch peddle is spring loaded so it will always feel like there is tension on it.
    Good to know! I planned on trying to bleed the clutch before I do anything else. I haven't bled the brakes or clutch since I got the car. Both the brakes and the clutch worked fine even after the car sat since 2001. I planned on servicing the entire brake system at once but I'll bleed the clutch and see how that goes. If that doesn't work, is it possible that the slave cylinder is still applying pressure to the pressure plate without the pedal depressed? I feel like it would make much more sense for a failed slave cylinder to fail at disengaging the clutch rather than engaging it.

  20. #45
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    That clutch spring can easily be adjusted for better clutch pedal feel. I usually lighten them up a few turns myself.

    Did you check the master cylinder and clutch hard line for leaks? Including the braided rubber feed hose? I just replaced one in my '86, it's pretty tight in there. For some reason (probably personal idiocy) RockAuto sent the wrong part, so I ended up doing the job twice.

    Most problems I've had with clutch slaves are from pressure loss due to fluid leaks. The rest of the system is pretty bulletproof. I'd think if the car has been sitting for years, the slave pressure seal would rapidly wear out. A leak is difficult to notice since there is an internal dust boot that will hold onto escaped brake fluid. Even if the dust boot is split, the fluid just drips down the bell housing. It's hard to notice.

    I never had luck bleeding them from the top. I always reverse pressure bleed them by hooking up a pump & bleeder hose to the slave nipple instead. Those slave cylinders also have an internal return spring, but it's not very strong. Sometimes the slave has a little trouble with the pushrod. It can bind on the rubber dust boot, jam up, or even fall off the clutch fork and into the bell housing.

  21. #46
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    An M90 is a sought after engine. With the crank shaft from the E3 3.3il it will give you 4 litres in capacity. A good engine to build a much larger capacity monster.

    I'm into my 633 CSi for well over $30k. Probably closer to $40k. In the end, it will be a stomping sleeper that will put any M635, early M3, shoot and e46 M3 to shame. I've spent 4 years fighting to get my car finished including finding it rammed up the back of an exhaust shop under boxes in another State.

    These are gorgeous cars and prices are going up. I remember when an e24 B7 Alpina was worth $50k. Now a parts car is EURO 150k and a showroom car in Europe is currently offered for EURO 354k.

    Stick with it, roll with the punches, it will be worth it in the end. Over the next 20 years these cars will increase in value between 5 fold to 10 fold.
    1977 633 CSi RHD Euro. S38B38 3.9L M5 Transplant. 5 Speed Getrag Dogleg. 3.73 LSD. 417hp, 369lb/ft
    1971 3.0CS E3 2dr Alpina Special Coupe Racer, 347hp, 295lb/ft

  22. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shipper View Post
    Stick with it, roll with the punches, it will be worth it in the end. Over the next 20 years these cars will increase in value between 5 fold to 10 fold.
    While I agree to a point, the US market is much different than AUS. I don't think euro 635's have the same allure in the US as they due in AUS (due to JPS/Jim Richards racing).

  23. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by tschultz View Post
    While I agree to a point, the US market is much different than AUS. I don't think euro 635's have the same allure in the US as they due in AUS (due to JPS/Jim Richards racing).
    Maybe, but, an e9 batwing is worth $250k in any market. Left or right hand drive. 6'ers are already cheap in the USA but when all the rust buckets are gone, a good left hand drive car in showroom condition will draw big dollars. Anyone re-creating a JPS car needs a LHD version. You may find the US car cheaper in 20 years but it should be worth way more than $4k.
    1977 633 CSi RHD Euro. S38B38 3.9L M5 Transplant. 5 Speed Getrag Dogleg. 3.73 LSD. 417hp, 369lb/ft
    1971 3.0CS E3 2dr Alpina Special Coupe Racer, 347hp, 295lb/ft

  24. #49
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    UPDATE: The car has been sitting around for a while and I finally decided to do some work on it. Just for the hell of it I tried the Seafoam treatment and man what a difference! At first... Right after the treatment the car ran great, smooth as can be. Next day, back to the rough idle and seemingly missing a cylinder. Part of me thinks this car just needs driven.

    Tearing the transmission out and seeing what the deal is with the clutch is on the schedule for next week. I bled the clutch several times with no success. My best guess is the clutch disk is glazed over or contaminated with oil. I purposely slipped the clutch real bad to hopefully burn off some crud and parked the car overnight with the clutch pedal depressed (Got nothing to loose) and it made quite a difference! It still slips but at least it's driveable now.

    The Plan? Get the clutch sorted and start driving it and go from there. If it doesn't improve, this car might just see some triple Webers.

    Quick question: Does anyone know what kind of vacuum this car should be pulling?

    I also picked up a set of Style 42 wheels for next to nothing on Craigslist and they look great. If anyone is wondering, the Style 42 wheel off the e39 is a perfect fit.
    IMG_20180110_165748.jpg
    Last edited by iamthejmsnyder; 03-09-2018 at 10:06 PM.

  25. #50
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    The plastic pivot pin probably is worn or broken on the other side of the clutch fork . I’ve had the exact problem before
    Me E30 87/ 325i + F25 12/ M-Sport + E32 94/ 740i

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