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Thread: Barnfind 1981 Euro e24. Power plant options... Insight requested

  1. #1
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    Barnfind 1981 Euro e24. Power plant options... Insight requested

    I just picked up this 1981 Euro spec 635CSi.

    It was literally stuffed away in a barn, miles away from anything, deep in the Pennsylvania mountains.
    The car was originally from Florida and brought to PA in 98. It was taken off the road in 01 after an apparent "electrical problem".
    After siting for 16 and a half years, I came along and probably paid a little too much for it. It's a complete, rust free car with a good interior 125k miles.
    I got it into my garage yesterday and the wiring is complete mess. Wiring is kind of my thing and I've successfully fixed several 80's bmw with similar no start symptoms so I wasn't worried until I got the car home and saw what had been done.
    Whoever tried to fix it made the problem much worse. Just about every plastic clip on the engine wiring harness is broken apart so nothing latches like it should, under the dash, there are so many wires cut and twisted together I don't even know where to start. There was no DME plugged in but I did find one in the trunk. I doubt it's the original as it's got stock numbers written all over it in Sharpie from a junkyard. My plan for today is to hook up everything best I can, see if I can get power to the DME and coil, get all the old fuel out and go from there.

    Here's where I'm looking for advice. Even if I get this engine running, it's going to need a new engine wiring harness at the least, but probably more, and that's assuming I have the right DME.
    Here are my options:
    1. Fix the wiring, get the car running, and be on my way. (MUCH easier said than done).
    2. Can the Euro M30B34 and buy a complete M106 out of a 745i that's for sale down the street and have a turbo 635. Then put the M30B34 in my Bavaria later on down the road.
    3. My personal favorite but also the most expensive, triple Weber side-draft carbs. I know the biggest issue is ignition timing but I do have a complete M30B30 engine in my shed with a mechanical distributor on it.

    This car is mainly going to be for mountain back road blasting so it won't do much sitting in traffic.

    I would love to hear some opinions on which path I should take and why. Once I make my decision, I'll keep up a thread.

    Also some questions:
    Is the DME any different for the Euro M30B34 than the US version?
    Since I have a complete M30 with mechanical timing components, could I swap that onto my B34? (I haven't had an electrically controlled M30 apart yet)
    Any input is appreciated!

    received_10156870830525898.jpgIMG_20171209_142117.jpg
    Last edited by iamthejmsnyder; 12-12-2017 at 11:36 PM.

  2. #2
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    No brainer, CARBS!
    Great find, are those wheels TRXs?

    If you can leave two black stripes from the exit of one corner to the braking zone of the next, you have enough horsepower. - Mark Donohue

  3. #3
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    That's all kinds of cool - enjoy!

    (wish I could help with the questions, but you've got some good folks around here)

  4. #4
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    Damn, that's sharp! A pristine Euro like that?!? How many could be left sitting around?

    The Euro B34 high-compression DME (011?) is significantly different than the US B34 (059?) version. No provision for an O2 sensor, no catalyst, different AFM, even a different fuse box C101 connector pinout.
    Your carbie M30B30 should fit right in to the chassis with no problems. Your car looks like an E12 type, it's basically the same as the Bavaria.
    The mechanical dizzy upper housing & spur gear will bolt right on to the M30 head, but there are a few different cam types. Yours is most likely the early Motronic cam. The camshaft snout was machined in three different variants on the M30, but you'd just need to get an adapter nut from BMW to drive your distributor.

    The M106 won't fit without some mods to the frame rail or passenger engine mount.

    I just pulled apart an '81 M30B32 in my garage, it has near-complete harness in very nice shape, along with a pristine 059 DME and AFM. The harnesses aren't very different, but the DME would not be ideal for the your car, it's the US Motronic 1.0 version. I might know where to find an original Euro DME if the one in your trunk isn't right, I'll get back to you.

  5. #5
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    Today I drained the fuel tank, blew all the old fuel out of the lines, changed the fuel filter and wired up the starter. (Wires just weren't attached) Cranks well but has no spark. I found old reference sensors in the trunk and the ones on the car look brand new. Tomorrow I'm going to make sure the TDC reference pin hasn't broken off the flywheel and I'll also test the DME connector for the proper inputs and such.

    Quote Originally Posted by ross1 View Post
    Great find, are those wheels TRXs?
    It has 3 bottle cap wheels and one BBS basket weave wheel... So I'll be in the hunt for some wheels once it's running.

    Quote Originally Posted by DesktopDave View Post
    Damn, that's sharp! A pristine Euro like that?!? How many could be left sitting around?
    It looks a little better in the pictures than in person, it's been repainted and has orange peel. Also, there was one suspicious chrome fender cover above the driver's side rear wheel. I took it off and there was quite a bit of bubbling underneath. I'm still satisfied with the car's condition though.

    Quote Originally Posted by DesktopDave View Post
    I just pulled apart an '81 M30B32 in my garage, it has near-complete harness in very nice shape, along with a pristine 059 DME and AFM. The harnesses aren't very different, but the DME would not be ideal for the your car, it's the US Motronic 1.0 version. I might know where to find an original Euro DME if the one in your trunk isn't right, I'll get back to you.
    That would be great thanks! Tomorrow I'll upload a picture of the DME I have for it.

  6. #6
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    I just picked up a set of 14" BBS weaves. Yours for scrap value if you're interested. Tires are shot, rims have rash, etc. etc..

    No news on the DME front yet.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by DesktopDave View Post
    I just picked up a set of 14" BBS weaves. Yours for scrap value if you're interested. Tires are shot, rims have rash, etc. etc...
    I would definitely be interested. I plan on getting some more modern wheels but it would be nice to include some wheels of the same vintage.


    Quote Originally Posted by DesktopDave View Post
    No news on the DME front yet.
    I actually got the car running today. Not sure what it was exactly but after cleaning up the wiring and testing every relay I went to check for spark and it fired up with only 3 spark plugs attached. I hooked everything back up. It sounds like it's running on 4, maybe 5 cylinders. I had to jump the positive end of the fuel pump to keep it running. I still can't seem to find the fuel relay or main relay. Or maybe the combo relay if it has one. Regardless, I can't find it. The two relays on the outside of the fuse box don't seem to do anything. The tach, check panel, and gas gauge don't work. I did some research and figured out that my car has an M90 and not an M30. Also, tangled into all the wiring are some crappy plastic boxes with wires coming out of them. There's one under the steering column and one in the glove box.
    IMG_20171213_151516.jpgIMG_20171213_151849.jpg
    I'm guessing these have something to do with compliance when the car was brought to the US? It has a dead-end wire that runs down to the end of the manifolds for, I'm assuming, an O2 sensor but there's no O2 sensor or any sign of there ever being one. Both boxes look like they were wired in by a 10 year old. Could these boxes be causing the engine to run poorly? Obviously I'll need to do an oil change, plugs, wires, etc. before anything else but I figured I'd ask.

  8. #8
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    I have an '81 and is Motronic M90, possibly what you have. If so you need ECU 002. Mine only worked at idle and my replacement occassionally works for a few seconds at a time. You could do M1.3 swap but you need sensor, afm, injectors, ICV ecu, harness and some way to adapt to the unique style fusebox (cut up existing harness).

    Otherwise, a M1.0 harness would work, but 059 ECU you will need injectors, harness, afm and ICV.

    I am going to try using the 008 ECU which uses the early style injectors but got stuck at the fusebox c101 connector and can't find the spade style connector (i didn't want to cut the existing one yet).

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by iamthejmsnyder View Post
    Today I drained the fuel tank, blew all the old fuel out of the lines, changed the fuel filter and wired up the starter. (Wires just weren't attached) Cranks well but has no spark. I found old reference sensors in the trunk and the ones on the car look brand new. Tomorrow I'm going to make sure the TDC reference pin hasn't broken off the flywheel and I'll also test the DME connector for the proper inputs and such.
    I'm with you there. If it's not a position sensor, it could also be a broken wire/dead resistor inside the DME temp sender. I've also had troubles with bad plug wires and no power to the coil. IIRC coil power is fed from the ignition switch, through the OBC black code box, then up to the main relay, finally over to the coil terminal 15. DME grounds terminal 1 to spark the plugs.

  10. #10
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    Are you having issues with it starting? If so try replacing the ignition module. Its at the passenger side by the fender

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by tschultz View Post
    I have an '81 and is Motronic M90, possibly what you have. If so you need ECU 002. Mine only worked at idle and my replacement occassionally works for a few seconds at a time. You could do M1.3 swap but you need sensor, afm, injectors, ICV ecu, harness and some way to adapt to the unique style fusebox (cut up existing harness).Otherwise, a M1.0 harness would work, but 059 ECU you will need injectors, harness, afm and ICV.I am going to try using the 008 ECU which uses the early style injectors but got stuck at the fusebox c101 connector and can't find the spade style connector (i didn't want to cut the existing one yet).
    Spot on Tom. The Motronic M90 needs an 002 ECU to run properly. It is a low impedence system and requires low impedence injectors. Reference sensors are easily obtained.
    81 Euro undergoing total nut and bolt restoration
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  12. #12
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    Thanks for all the replies. I'm assuming since I have such a low number of posts on this forum, my posts have to be approved or something because it takes a day and a half or so before they show up. My ECU numbers do in fact end in 002.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Well of course that one popped right up... I wrote up a post last night that I think is still pending? Anyway I did get the car running after fiddling with the wiring, relays. There's more detail in the post I wrote up last night, I'm sure it will show up soon.

  13. #13
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    Ok, since my other post seems to be MIA (I'm sure it'll pop up as soon as I post this one) I'll say it all over again. After checking every relay and testing the various pins on the DME plug, I went to check for spark again and it sputtered up even with one plug out. So I put the plug back in and it just sputtered a little. I checked for voltage at the fuel pump and had none. Since I still can't seem to find the fuel pump relay, main relay, or combo relay if it has one of those, I jumped the fuel pump with a wire supplying 12 volts. With the fuel pump jumped, the car fired right up. I checked voltage at the pump again and there is no power going to the pump during cranking or running unless I jump it. The car runs ok but seems to be running on 4, maybe 5 cylinders. The idle is really rough but runs smooth at higher RPM. A few interesting things to note; Poorly wired into the wiring are two electrical boxes. One under the steering column labeled "Neutronics DOT Warning System" and one along with the DME in the glove box labeled "Neutronics Lamnda Computer". The one in the glove box has a dead end wire that goes through the firewall and down to the end of the exhaust manifolds for what I assume would be for an O2 sensor. However on the exhaust there is no sign of an O2 sensor or there ever being one. Also, no matter the amount of research I do, I can't seem to find the fuel pump relay or main relay. There's also no combo relay in the expansion tank/brake booster area. The two relays on the side of the fuse box don't seem to be relevant. Both have power and don't seem to do anything when jumped. Functionality wise, the Tach, board computer, turn signals, gas gauge, and blower motor don't work. Also the battery is not being charged by the alternator. Any ideas on my next move?

    Quote Originally Posted by DesktopDave View Post
    I just picked up a set of 14" BBS weaves. Yours for scrap value if you're interested. Tires are shot, rims have rash, etc. etc..
    I'm definitely interested. Anything is better than what it's got now.

    Here are some pictures of the Neutronics electric boxes I was talking about as well as what I'm dealing with in the engine bay as far as relays go.

    IMG_20171213_151849.jpgIMG_20171213_151516.jpgIMG_20171214_181546.jpgIMG_20171214_181554.jpg

  14. #14
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    You won't have a combo relay on this car since it is Motronic.

    That is a johnson box for o2 sensor... aftermarket and it may or may not work. It probably doesn't touch the gauges or even engine harness wiring. It is possible your gauges just weren't plugged back in after the cluster was removed.

    this is a great guide to troubleshooting your mechanical parts: http://www.hiperformancestore.com/motronic.htm
    Part numbers can be found on realoem.com if you find a part that doesn't pass the test.

  15. #15
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    Many of these "Johnson boxes" were not even connected from what I remember hearing and the wire through the fire wall was a dummy to look good when the car was inspected or certified. I just checked the numbers showing on the other box, of which I have, and it is the control unit for the interior lights. Part # 1366575 which shows up in realoem. On my car, it was mounted to the body above the ECU
    Last edited by Bert Poliakoff; 12-14-2017 at 08:48 PM.
    81 Euro undergoing total nut and bolt restoration
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  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bert Poliakoff View Post
    Many of these "Johnson boxes" were not even connected from what I remember hearing and the wire through the fire wall was a dummy to look good when the car was inspected or certified. I just checked the numbers showing on the other box, of which I have, and it is the control unit for the interior lights. Part # 1366575 which shows up in realoem. On my car, it was mounted to the body above the ECU
    I agree with Bert - most of these Johnson boxes were just for show. Mine had one with Ford parts that was made up of several wires connected to nothing. I'd remove and chase the problem elsewhere.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by iamthejmsnyder View Post
    Since I still can't seem to find the fuel pump relay, main relay, or combo relay if it has one of those, I jumped the fuel pump with a wire supplying 12 volts.
    Check for those relays above the glovebox, clipped onto the dash support beam. I found them above the DME in my '81 633CSi.

    Quote Originally Posted by iamthejmsnyder View Post
    I'm definitely interested. Anything is better than what it's got now.
    Excellent! They're yours. Glad you can use them.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by iamthejmsnyder View Post
    The car runs ok but seems to be running on 4, maybe 5 cylinders. The idle is really rough but runs smooth at higher RPM.
    Usually a vac leak, but might also be dirty injectors. I had to rebuild the last set I had. I have some low-impedance Euro injectors sitting around, I think they're the Bosch 201 parts. Untested, but yours if you want them.

    Quote Originally Posted by iamthejmsnyder View Post
    The two relays on the side of the fuse box don't seem to be relevant. Both have power and don't seem to do anything when jumped.

    Functionality wise, the Tach, board computer, turn signals, gas gauge, and blower motor don't work. Also the battery is not being charged by the alternator. Any ideas on my next move?
    I believe those one of those two relays clipped to the fuse box is for the fuel tank purge valve. It's likely been hacked in too, as the Euros originally had a vent-to-atmo fuel tank.
    Tach is digitally controlled by the DME, look for a little three-pin plug near the DME. Could also be the usual loose grounding nut, but I don't recall if the early clusters used a stud to ground the gauge.
    Gas gauge? I'd guess terminals on the tank sender could be loose. You should have a four-pin plug on the fuel tank lift pump assembly. Two are gauge sender terminals, the other two are lift pump terminals. The spade connector terminals tend to slide into the body of that plastic female plug connector and then nothing works right. Gently pull the rubber boot off to verify everything is mated up OK.
    Does the alternator warning light in the dashboard work? Check that light every time you start the car. It's special, if it's burned out the alt won't charge the battery. It even uses a special little bulb holder.
    If it's not something simple with the turn signals like corroded bulbs or Federalized wiring hacks, check the 4-way hazard switch. All the turn signal wiring goes through there, years of corrosion cause a little internal arcing & melting, but can be carefully dismantled and cleaned.

    The blower motor(s) are controlled by the HVAC panel temperature switch as well as the fan speed switch. It's a Rube Goldberg contraption, just needs carefully taken apart, contacts buffed and cleaned. I had to JB Weld mine back together, the rear support bracket had cracked a few of the brass threaded inserts out. The heater valve control rod also fell off the temp dial spigot. My heater valve was leaking badly, and they're expensive! I just looped the heater hose. I traded the car before I got around to fixing the heat or A/C in that car.
    IMG_0186.JPG IMG_0187.JPGIMG_0188.JPG IMG_0189.JPG
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by DesktopDave; 12-14-2017 at 11:23 PM.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by tschultz View Post
    this is a great guide to troubleshooting your mechanical parts: http://www.hiperformancestore.com/motronic.htm
    Part numbers can be found on realoem.com if you find a part that doesn't pass the test.
    Thanks! After a quick skim of the page, this will definitely help!

    Quote Originally Posted by DesktopDave View Post
    Check for those relays above the glovebox, clipped onto the dash support beam. I found them above the DME in my '81 633CSi.
    I did find one relay there. It had a 4 prong relay in it but is a 5 prong socket. Could this be the main relay? That was the only relay in the glove box. I replaced it with the proper relay. There's another relay socket under the driver's side dash that has wires coming out of it going into one of those Neutronics boxes. I took the wires out that were plugged into it and put in a relay and it clicked as soon as I put it in. After being plugged in for a few minutes, the relay started to get hot so I took it out. Nothing more worked while it was in.

    Does anyone know where I could find a wiring diagram for this car? Or at least an English copy of the owners manual? I have any documentation to help me and obviously everything on the car is in German...

  20. #20
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    I'd bet that's the main relay socket, then. It's easy to tell, that main relay socket is the only one with a thick red wire, directly from the battery. Other wires should be green (from ignition switch via the code box), brown (ground), DME power output (red/blue?) and the fuel pump relay output (red/white?). The fuel pump relay might be clipped onto the fuse box then. Normal BMW wire colors for the 4-pin FP relay...red/white and brown/green for the control side...red and green/violet for the switched side.

    I had a lot of trouble finding docs for my car. The '82 models had the old chassis wiring and bullet fuses, but the new Motronic engine. To make it worse, the Euro fusebox is slightly different than the US model. I used the '82 733i ETM for chassis wiring along with a later '83 635CSi ETM for the motor. Here they are in PDF format:
    http://wedophones.com/BMWManualsLead.htm

    I also have a 1980 633CSi wiring diagram (Google Drive link), not sure where I got it nor if it's 100% accurate for your car.
    Last edited by DesktopDave; 12-15-2017 at 02:47 PM.

  21. #21
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    This allegedly includes your E12-based car:

    http://www.malloc.nl/BMW/635CSi/pages/en/index.html

    Big coupe group is a place you should check out also; above link is from their tech articles section. http://bigcoupe.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=10410



    Good luck,

    Ray

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by rlkrlk View Post
    This allegedly includes your E12-based car:

    http://www.malloc.nl/BMW/635CSi/pages/en/index.html
    Thanks! This was helpful and I even found the German version that was for the Euro spec of car. Thanks to Google Translate, It's usable. http://www.malloc.nl/BMW/635CSi/pages/de/index.html

    As it turns out, the the relay closer to the engine on the side of the fuse box was for the fuel pump. After some cleaning of contacts, I got that working. I also ran a wire straight from the alternator to the positive terminal of the battery and now I'm getting close to 14 volts while it's running. I'll have to figure out why the normal wire on the alternator isn't working. I also found more vacuum leaks, cracked hoses, etc. Fixed all the ones I could and it runs slightly better. I also cleaned up the fuse box and got the turn signals and blower motor working. Still no functioning tach or check panel yet though. I'm going out of town tomorrow until Tuesday so while I'm gone I plan on making a list of what I'm going to do next.

  23. #23
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    I Have the factory chassis wiring schematics for the pre 82 euro cars blown up to 130%. $12 mailed
    81 Euro undergoing total nut and bolt restoration
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  24. #24
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    There are lot of places for potential vac leaks on these cars. Not only the usual suspects like vac lines & hoses, but there are a lot of fiddly little seals. I'm budgeting for a smoke machine sooner rather than later to chase all them down on my next project. I did find a few fun ones on mine, including the crank snout seal and the rear cam cover (duck gasket).

    I have a few spare early-style alternators if you'd like to borrow one for testing purposes. I still hope it's that bulb in the cluster though.

    Here's a really good post about your car over at BigCoupe. It explains a lot about the '81-'82 E12 chassis car with the later motor. Brucey describes these mid-production models.

    TL;DR: you might have an M90 in your car. (like tshultz said), Read on for more details:

    Even though you have a relatively rare Euro, you might have stumbled across an even rarer specimen. It's possible that you have an M90B35 in your car instead of a Euro M30B34 (more details here). As a bonus, since it's the last of the production run, you'll also have the more advanced Motronic 1.0 instead of D-Jetronic. The M90 is the first Motorsport street engine, installed in the European E12 M535i. The M90 looks identical to the M30 at first glance...it's easy to overlook if you're not aware of the differences. Look for the long raised coolant passage (running from the water pump back to the starter) under the intake manifold. "Normal" M30 will only have a short casting passage behind the water pump. Given the relative ease of maintenance compared to the DOHC motors, these are a better everyday choice than the M88/S38 family.

    The M90 uses a slightly different engine block, crank and pistons. They are more closely related to the DOHC M88/S38 family instead of their more pedestrian SOHC M30 cousins. It has a 'real' 3.5L displacement (not 3.4) since it was overbored & destroked at the factory. Rumor has it that BMW was testing out the durability of an overbored block for the later ///M cars.

    The 'normal' US M30B34 has a bore/stroke of 92 x 86mm with 8:1 compression.
    The Euro M30 B34 is also 92 x 86mm, but with 10:1 high compression pistons.
    The M90 is 93.4 x 84mm, with 9.3:1 compression. When new, they were rated at 218 HP. I'm not 100% sure of HP & torque numbers, but that's nearly as powerful as the stock US M6 @ 256 HP. Along with the stock single-mass 240mm flywheel (15-ish pounds) it'd be a real treat to drive.

    So hopefully you'll have the rev-happiest M30 variant of them all! However...it's not all sunshine & chocolate. Unless you're a BMW fanatic, the M90 can be a liability. Hopefully it hasn't been totally neglected. Like all classic cars, previous owners likely scrimped on maintenance. The Euro engines tend to be a little more sensitive to consumables like low-quality fuel, oil & coolant. That's troublesome since the block can't be significantly overbored, it's a little more susceptible to blown head gaskets, M90-specific spare parts are relatively rare, many other parts (IIRC head gaskets) are specific to the late M90 and difficult to identify, etc.. I spoke to a respected engine builder about this, he's had a lot of trouble finding good used M90/S38 cores. Most are due to cracked blocks.
    Last edited by DesktopDave; 12-17-2017 at 07:28 PM.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by iamthejmsnyder View Post
    Thanks! This was helpful and I even found the German version that was for the Euro spec of car. Thanks to Google Translate, It's usable. http://www.malloc.nl/BMW/635CSi/pages/de/index.html
    I think you can access the English version there too. Either manually change the URL from "/de/" to "/en/" (http://www.malloc.nl/BMW/635CSi/pages/en/index.html)or alternatively select the "Repair Manual" link instead of "Reparaturanleitung" at the E24 root menu: http://www.malloc.nl/BMW/635CSi/start.html

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